Seeds We Sow -- First Impressions

[jellyman10]

Originally Posted by Regina

Maybe his head is not with some bizarro world thing that you expect from him and his opinion of cutting edge or small machinery is HIS opinion, which just doesn't happen to match up with yours. (But, surprisingly, matches up with the majority of people here and ... oh, yeah...in the press. But, what do any of US know?)

Well, I suppose the problem is that I'm crediting him with wanting to make sense, and he just doesn't. At length. He doesn't make sense, and he does it at length. And then he starts talking about wanting to work again with someone who just did some of the best music of her career without him. I don't understand how you can't see that there's a legit interest for a Stevie Nicks fan here.

[BTFLCHLD]

Originally Posted by jellyman10

Read a lot of Oscar Wilde, do you?

aha. has the thought ever occurred to you to critique yourself?

[jellyman10]

Originally Posted by BTFLCHLD

aha. has the thought ever occurred to you to critique yourself?

Oh, of course. And I do. But I'd much rather you did it by engaging with some of the points I've made, beyond just chucking mud at things I've said I like. That's when I enjoy the Ledge the best: when we talk to each other.

[BTFLCHLD]

Originally Posted by jellyman10

Oh, of course. And I do. But I'd much rather you did it by engaging with some of the points I've made, beyond just chucking mud at things I've said I like. That's when I enjoy the Ledge the best: when we talk to each other.

Why would I engage with someone I don't like? I'd much rather chuck mud.

[Nico]

Originally Posted by jellyman10

. But Jimmy Iovine and John Shanks and Dave Stewart have done as well as LB ever has with her songs

See now, that is your opinion. I am a HUGE music fan and I listen to everything. I understand that some people are crazy about her solo stuff, but to me it's very dull. And much of that (not all) has to do with the production. See, Stevie isn't musically that appealing to me. It's her lyrics/voice that really stand out- and that could be different for others but FOR ME those are her two greatest assets. Her songwriting isn't bad, but then I read the linear notes of her recent album and see she pretty much didn't write the music to a bunch of those songs so I can't really rate her that high.

With Lindsey and FM, Lindsey's sublime/shimmery production complemented Stevie's singing and words. They ebbed and flowed so beautifully that I can't find anything to really criticize of hers- on Tusk especially. Long, meandering songs didn't bore me. Nowadays, while I admit IYD was certainly better than most of her other stuff, I simply can't sit through it because there isn't anything that really sticks out for me aside from a few really great songs. She has some highs on here, sure, and I commend Dave Stewart for definitely shining HIMSELF on the album as well. But I just wouldn't say any of the stuff is as great as "Angel," "Sara," "Storms, " "Gold Dust Woman."

And strangely enough, all of my friends who I have played that album for haven't even liked it. They can't get past her voice, which is too bad for them because it's an interesting and strong voice. But what I am trying to say is that FOR YOU, as a Stevie fan, it may be that those other producers were the same/better than LB but for me, as a general music fan, no one brought out the best of Stevie like LB did in early FM. SYW is obviously a controversy because, honestly, I don't think her songs are all that great on there but a few. So I will accept that many SN fans are upset over that but I just... I feel like he did a pretty damn good job with what he was given. Maybe "Smile At You" was better in it's original form, but whatever...that one is still out there for people, and she can always remake it.

[jellyman10]

Originally Posted by BTFLCHLD

Why would I engage with someone I don't like? I'd much rather chuck mud.

Ah well. I know when I'm beat. No harm meant.

[jellyman10]

Originally Posted by Nico

See now, that is your opinion.

Yep, and thanks for replying to it. I have to go out - it's 7.15 pm in the UK - but I'll come back to you on this later, if I may?

[Nico]

Originally Posted by jellyman10

Well, I suppose the problem is that I'm crediting him with wanting to make sense, and he just doesn't. At length. He doesn't make sense, and he does it at length. And then he starts talking about wanting to work again with someone who just did some of the best music of her career without him. I don't understand how you can't see that there's a legit interest for a Stevie Nicks fan here.

Lindsey makes a lot of sense to me. I'm sorry. He has a vision that is HIS OWN, as Regina eloquently stated. It may not be yours, so it's understandable that you don't have to like it. But to criticize him for not asking sense because he is rather robotic and redundant in his interviews/live banter is being a tad harsh. LB fans poke at him for the speeches, but we have to admit the man has a very strong artistic vision for someone who really has nothing to prove. I think SN fans seem to think that she is so much superior to him because she writes songs that become hits, and when someone creates music with the goal of doing something different FOR HIMSELF it's just not good enough. I don't understand that and I certainly don't agree with it.

For me, the greatest part about FM has always been Lindsey's mad ways. He was relentless in his pursuit of trying to sound different/out there and that followed through in his solo career. If LB can be criticized for anything on this new album it's that he's basically copying HIMSELF, not others. As you grow older, your world becomes smaller. Things that you didn't dream of in your youth mean a hell of a lot now, and Lindsey is simply taking from the lessons he's learned and applying that to his music. For me, his lyrics have grown. I listen to them now with a great deal of affinity and I am often very impressed. Also, I don't agree with your summation of his guitar skills, but then I have seen him live far too many times to really let anyone's opinions on something like that get me down- the man is mesmerizing and I know it.

I respect that you are concerned about whatever collaboration Lindsey will do with Stevie, but I personally feel that he is on an artistic and creative upswing in the past few years. He has the energy of someone far, far younger and still the drive of a man who cares. If anything, I'm thinking she's lucky to have such a partner. If others disagree, well, maybe it won't happen and then you all can be happy and wait for Stevie's next project.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Regina

But I think it's a bit much to suggest that someone who had prior substance abuse issues might be "medicated to the gills," simply because you don't like the way he speaks. And, for the record, I don't care for the canned speeches, either. But I'm not accusing him of being a drugged-out zombie.

It would be hard to mistake him for that considering he often interacts with the audience in concert and will spontaneously take a remark they say, make a joke out of it and use it as a running thread throughout the night. Far from being zoned out on stage, he is very alert. He hears what people are saying (and because his venues are so small, he hears what people are saying from rows and rows back). He frequently responds and for those close to him he makes eye contact. He's sharp, hilarious. He gives the speeches by rote, certainly, but he's far from phoning anything else in robotically when he's on stage.

Michele

[elle]

Originally Posted by michelej1

It would be hard to mistake him for that considering he often interacts with the audience in concert and will spontaneously take a remark they say, make a joke out of it and use it as a running thread throughout the night. Far from being zoned out on stage, he is very alert. He hears what people are saying (and because his venues are so small, he hears what people are saying from rows and rows back). He frequently responds and for those close to him he makes eye contact. He's sharp, hilarious. He gives the speeches by rote, certainly, but he's far from phoning anything else in robotically when he's on stage.

having seen a few of LB's shows now, agree with every single word of this!

[jellyman10]

Originally Posted by Nico

See now, that is your opinion. ....

With Lindsey and FM, Lindsey's sublime/shimmery production complemented Stevie's singing and words. They ebbed and flowed so beautifully that I can't find anything to really criticize of hers- on Tusk especially. Long, meandering songs didn't bore me. Nowadays, while I admit IYD was certainly better than most of her other stuff, I simply can't sit through it because there isn't anything that really sticks out for me aside from a few really great songs. She has some highs on here, sure, and I commend Dave Stewart for definitely shining HIMSELF on the album as well. But I just wouldn't say any of the stuff is as great as "Angel," "Sara," "Storms, " "Gold Dust Woman."

And strangely enough, all of my friends who I have played that album for haven't even liked it. They can't get past her voice, which is too bad for them because it's an interesting and strong voice. But what I am trying to say is that FOR YOU, as a Stevie fan, it may be that those other producers were the same/better than LB but for me, as a general music fan, no one brought out the best of Stevie like LB did in early FM. SYW is obviously a controversy because, honestly, I don't think her songs are all that great on there but a few. So I will accept that many SN fans are upset over that but I just... I feel like he did a pretty damn good job with what he was given. Maybe "Smile At You" was better in it's original form, but whatever...that one is still out there for people, and she can always remake it.

Can't work out how to separate bits out to address separately, so I've bolded them.

Of course these are my opinions, and I'm willing to modify them if I hear a good argument.

I don't like music that's polished to within an inch of its life. I don't like Tango in the Night, either the track or most of the album. In fact, it's the only Mac album on which I can't bear any of Stevie's songs and I find Lindsey's soulless. I actually think his production there suits Christine's material best of all. But I agree with you almost completely about Tusk: there, Lindsey did a great job with everyone's material. FOR ME, it's his production highpoint with the Mac and he should have left the band for good after that record.

Sidebar re: 'Sara' - interesting that you cite that as an example of Lindsey doing good things with a Stevie song, since the 'cleaning lady' demo shows very clearly that every single important strand of the arrangement of that song was in place before it even got to the Mac. If you believe Annie McLoone, who worked on the demo, the finished track even still has Tom Moncrieff's guitar on it, uncredited. John overdubbed Tom's bassline too - which I was gutted to learn, as it formed the basis of quite a lot of my adoration of John as a bassist for many years! So I don't give LB much of a shout for the majesty that is 'Sara'. But I do agree that 'Storms' is truly great. The very best thing they ever did together. I love how LB makes an electric guitar sound so tender. Very clever.

I like your observation about Dave Stewart shining on IYD. It's true. But I disagree with the idea that Stevie doesn't shine, in comparison, and there we just have to differ. But it's a valid topic because it's exactly what I'm on about: I think that on IYD Stevie sounds the best she's sounded since the Wild Heart and I think the reason for it is that she's found someone to work with who makes her feel like what she can bring to the party is equal to what they can bring. I think that was the basis of her working relationship with Dave and it is not something she has ever experience, except fleetingly, with Lindsey. That's why I worry that she'll go back into her shell if he gets on board producing her work again.

Having said that, I really like some of the things LB has been saying lately about appreciating what he and Stevie had/have together as a 'musical entity', and I really hope that they can stay in this happier place if they do decide to do another Mac album.

I'm sorry to hear that none of your friends or family enjoyed IYD. I wish it were otherwise, but isn't that a paradox? Solo Stevie has always sold more records than solo Lindsey, but LB fans never want popular tastes to be a measure of quality (they're right, of course). So maybe that makes IYD even better!

Thanks for the debate.
Loz

[jellyman10]

Originally Posted by Nico

Lindsey makes a lot of sense to me. I'm sorry. He has a vision that is HIS OWN, as Regina eloquently stated. It may not be yours, so it's understandable that you don't have to like it. But to criticize him for not asking sense because he is rather robotic and redundant in his interviews/live banter is being a tad harsh.

...

If LB can be criticized for anything on this new album it's that he's basically copying HIMSELF, not others. ..... Also, I don't agree with your summation of his guitar skills, but then I have seen him live far too many times to really let anyone's opinions on something like that get me down- the man is mesmerizing and I know it.

I respect that you are concerned about whatever collaboration Lindsey will do with Stevie, but I personally feel that he is on an artistic and creative upswing in the past few years. He has the energy of someone far, far younger and still the drive of a man who cares. If anything, I'm thinking she's lucky to have such a partner. If others disagree, well, maybe it won't happen and then you all can be happy and wait for Stevie's next project.

I didn't say he didn't make sense because he was 'robotic' or repetitive. I said he didn't make sense because he claims that his solo career is artistically richer and/or more valid than what he does with FM without addressing why he keeps going back to FM at all, except to refer vaguely to the notion that the 'big machine' is what 'allows' the 'small machine' to exist. And I call BS on that, because I simply refuse to believe that he needs the income from FM in any meaningful way in order to make his solo music. He also routinely insults genuinely struggling artists all the time when he says these things about indie film-making and so on. He has been a millionaire since 1976, and a multi-millionaire since quite soon after that. He wouldn't know financial struggle if he found it in his soup. And he - and Stevie and all the rest of them who made tens of millions in the heyday of rock music - should just stop embarrassing themselves by going on about money. They are massively privileged to be in the position they're in, compared with artists starting out today, and yet LB still clings to the fantasy that it's tough for him. He releases an 'indie' record and it still gets reviewed in Rolling Stone! Come on. Stevie is every bit as bad, by the way, albeit in a different sense.

As for copying himself and his guitar skills - I think what I actually said was that, the way I see it, LB's currently in a guitar seam that's narrow but deep, and that if the listener finds that depth to be as interesting as LB does, then that's happy times all round! You are clearly someone who does find it as interesting as he does, so that's great. Not sure why you think we disagreed on that one.

I'm heartened to hear that you respect my concerns about the negative influence of LB on Stevie's artistic freedom - and yet you can't quite bring yourself to not give with one hand and take away with the other. Because you then go on to say that you think she should think herself lucky to have him - which means you think my concerns are without foundation, because you just can't conceive of LB not being an asset. And that's pretty funny for a chiffonhead - that is, for a member of a fanbase regularly accused of thinking everything Stevie does is great because she does it.

But I prefer to be optimistic: what I want, in order of preference, is more new music from Stevie and more new music from an FM that includes Lindsey and Stevie. Adding to my misgivings about them working together again is the fact that I really didn't like Soldier's Angel. However, I at least disliked it in a better way than the way in which I disliked what he did to her songs on SYW. So maybe there's hope!

I agree with you completely, by the way, that LB seems to be on an upswing. He sounds very engaged and productive.

Loz

[lbfan]

Originally Posted by jellyman10

I agree with you completely, by the way, that LB seems to be on an upswing. He sounds very engaged and productive.

Loz

It is apparent to me that LB understands that his musical legacy is on the line. His demand for FM to leave him alone for three years, the plethora of new music and live recordings, the underlying theme of his lyrics, the desire to have closure with Stevie on one last BN project, to me are all evidence that he has recognized his own mortality and wants to leave an artistic legacy as a solo artist, not just an FM front man and "architect of the FM sound." He will continue to tour with FM as that is the cash cow and the key to his financial legacy for his children.

[Regina]

Originally Posted by jellyman10

Well, I suppose the problem is that I'm crediting him with wanting to make sense, and he just doesn't. At length. He doesn't make sense, and he does it at length. And then he starts talking about wanting to work again with someone who just did some of the best music of her career without him. I don't understand how you can't see that there's a legit interest for a Stevie Nicks fan here.

Well, I'm a Stevie fan, too. And I love IYD. In fact, I think I've just kicked it up to #1 on her solo stuff. I can't tell you how proud I was to see her do these songs live a couple of months ago.

But, I think there is a massive amount of reflection both of them are doing at this point in their lives. And I think they've both come to understand that they can't keep doing this I love him/her-I hate him/her deal for the rest of their lives. Time does run out. I think this is something that doesn't HAVE to happen, but should. In a way, I think they might feel that Fleetwood Mac has said all it has to say, creatively, and its main purpose is now to make baby boomers feel like they are teens for a couple of hours every couple of years (or, extremely old, depending on your point of view).

And I know that must sound kind of weird considering Stevie and Lindsey are the voices of FM-but, there is a certain sound, there are two more people who could veto things. And those two people bring in people of their own... And, as much as I hate the whole Big Machine/Small Machine thing -- I don't think any of us really have an inkling of just how BIG this stuff really is and how many people are involved (with legal teams, publicity teams, yada, yada). In a way, I think this talk of Buckingham Nicks is a really, really honest attempt, on both their parts, to strip it all down to their roots. Now, whether that is truly, truly possible is completely up to how commited they will be to that goal and just how much of ego-leaving at the door BOTH of them will be willing to do. But, I think it could work on a level that none of us can imagine. And I think it's part of their process as human beings. I don't think it will harm either of their solo careers.

So, yeah, you don't have to get or like SwS at all. But don't worry about that style of music's effect on Stevie's work. I think BuckinghamNicks (NicksBuckingham?) is a whole different machine! And, more than that, I think they have genuinely wanted to get back to the place of healing their own wounds/dealing with their conflicting confusing feelings for quite some time now...and music just may be the answer. Music that they work on TOGETHER.

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by shackin'up

Prepare for Lindsey's most consistant soloalbum to date. Consistant in quality, but also in sound and production. It's a winner. For me the faves are:
-the title track, ( just beautiful and tender )
-In Our Own Time , ( I think it's a masterpiece and I'm really curious what US radio does with the weird unconventional treatment of this song )
-TTWLG, (what a great great rocker, I cried from the solo till the end. Also the It Goes It Goes -screams are spinechilling),
-One Take
( he really shreds the Turner to pieces on this one, fabulous lyric, great Livesong I presume, with an extended solo- please extend it until it becomes almost ridiculous- this is the best soloriffing he did in years!)

-Rock Away Blind ( I sincerely think this one is one of his best songs, maybe even is going to win a spot above Shut Us Down in my fave-list)

- The End Of Time ( is simply a classic Mac song, I was afraid the studioversion would never reach the emotional level from the liveversion, but believe me, it does.)

It's an album with an approach, a vision. It's incredibly wellcrafted and original. And the guitarwork on this album is beyond stunning. Not only because of the skills, but also because of the feel. What an artist. There's no comparison.

And: for a lot of people a minor thing, but for me: a Milestone in Lindsey's songcraft: 11 tracks and NOT ONE fade out!!!!

I'm going to buy it based on your review. I loved GOS, hated UTS. So I hope I love this one too.