Mick and Stevie RULE!!!

[Les]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
I am solely talking about LB constantly saying for like 30 years that he does not want to be a commercial artist or at least that he never wants to release "commercial" work and its always FM or someone else that makes him.

I don't think that's quite what he's said for 30 years. He's been of the mindset for many years that he doesn't want to release commercial work solely for the sake of having it sell well. I think he's pretty aware that commerciality is a selling point to a broader audience, but as compared to the other members of the band, he's less willing to take the music in a totally commercial direction if he'd really like it to sound different.

That whole segment of the documentary was kind of interesting. Mick made a good point. Lindsey's never going to be in a two-bedroom. On the other hand, neither is anybody in the band. I suspect they all have a lot of money and are entirely comfortable. As a band, if they aren't in a position to make some decisions more for the music and less for the business at this point, who is?

I can see where both men were coming from and why they will never quite see eye to eye. I think Lindsey and Mick have been having some form of this same discussion for 25 years and will continue to have it forever, hehe.

I point to piece of evidence #1 :

Rolling Stone, 1982

....To most of this band, chart position and sales figures mean a lot. "The only yardsticks you have are Billboard, Cashbox, and Radio & Records," said John McVie firmly.

"You also have what's in here as a yardstick," said Buckingham, slapping his chest. "You can't let that other stuff be your motivation for making albums." He was adamant; just because Mirage hit number one doesn't make it any more of a success in his book: "No, no, no. Not to me. You've got reviews, you've got other things."

Even so, it doesn't seem that Fleetwood Mac has to worry. Even the expensive, confusing Tusk was a financial success, suggesting that it is possible to challenge pop audiences without losing them if you have the right name and track record. But if you want to shake things up, Buckingham has learned, you've got to be ready to take some abuse.

"Even in the band, I remember getting flak afterward for having done Tusk," he said. "I remember Mick saying, 'I think you went too far.'"

"Well, I think you did," said Fleetwood. "As far as the presentation of your songs, a lot of them never got played on the radio."

"Well, but so what?"

Mick sighed. "Yeah, I know, but..."

"My songs aren't getting played on this album either!"

As John and Christine laughed uproariously, Fleetwood protested. "You know what I meant."

Lindsey forged on. "You can't put the Clash up against Olivia Newton-John and expect the Clash to get the airplay."

"I know, but..." Mick trailed off.

"I know," muttered Lindsey. He then stopped himself short. "My God, what is this - a therapy session?"

John McVie laughed heartily. "Sounds good to me."

[wondergirl9847]

Thanks for posting that stuff Les! LOL

I just wanted to say... I think Lindsey was ahead of his time in terms of knowing that being #1 means nada really. I mean, there's so much music that's been #1 over the years, but it wasn't necessarily the best music ever. Just because it's popular doesn't mean it's good stuff.

[strandinthewind]

LOL - things sure have not changed much in 22 or so years!!!!

Thanks for quoting that article!!!!

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Lindsey mentioned that apparently he found out about Mick's change of heart through some indirect channel. Or did I misunderstand that? This was during the footage with Lindsey in the car. I'll have to review it, but it seemed that something less-than-straightforward happened there.

It's apparent that we didn't quite get the full story there, but I agree that from the looks of it, Mick could have handled his change of heart in a better fashion.
We didn't get to hear that phone call though, so we have no idea how Mick might have explained it to Lindsey.
For all we know, Mick might have explained it to him exactly the way he explained it to the cameras, but Lindsey might have still felt that Mick was going back on his word.

But who knows?

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Admit it, even you must have gotten a giggle or two from her rather naive 10-27-year-old-buyer comment. It was goofy and charming all at once. I mean, come on Stevie, teenagers aren't going to rush out and buy FM's new album. The Dance was different because a lot of kids had heard those songs in their parents' record collections and they were therefore pre-disposed to like the stuff. Frankly, I don't know too many 10-year-olds who rush to the stores for any albums.

Even from a business perspective, 30- and 40-somethings are the ones who would buy the album, and this group being more value-savvy than teenagers, would have loved to get a double disc. Besides, as it later became clear, the second disc would have cost pennies per copy to put out. It really was a non-issue and I'm still a little baffled as to why ultimately the idea was scrapped. It seems that fear, more than reality, drove this decision. I also was curious about Lindsey's comment that Stevie might drop out after doing 40 dates on the tour and it would therefore not be cost effective. Puzzling words, which seemed somewhat out of context. Had she threatened to do that?

I did get a chuckle out of Stevie discussing who's most likely to buy an album these days, but she's not entirely wrong either. My 11 year old cousin and my 14 year old cousin buy far more CDs than I do, and I'm "only" 31.
However, we're talking about Fleetwood Mac here, and their audience is always going to be somewhat more older-skewing.

Mind you, I would have LOVED to have had a double album in my greedy little hands, but Stevie made very good points about the men in the band... who have families they need to support... taking a hit if a double-album didn't sell well.
And, again, once Warner Bros. came back to them and said they could keep the price down, Stevie was on board with the idea.

As for Lindsey's comment about the tour... I didn't get the sense that Stevie said anything about pulling out. I took it to be Lindsey re-thinking the scenarios that he had planned out in order for this to work for him financially, and realizing that if just one thing goes wrong... Stevie wanting to stop touring after 40 dates, for instance... and the tour doesn't run for as long as he needed it to, then he'd be up a creek.
Plus, we know Stevie was having health problems throughout the beginning of this tour, and I'm sure Lindsey was very aware of that, and the problems it could cause.

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Well, they went with Needham because Stevie didn't like Chris' mixes. Lindsey seemed to instinctively know who would do the mixes that would best serve the songs. And he was afraid Chris would do an assembly-line approach that Lindsey simply didn't want, and rightly. Here is another example in which Stevie was pushing for commercial and Lindsey was pushing for what would best serve the songs.

Stevie has worked with Chris Lord-Alge on MANY occasions, so she's probably a lot more comfortable telling him what she expects and wants... which is why she seemed more critical of his mix, as opposed to the mix done by the guy she wasn't familiar with.

If she had her druthers, I still bet she would have went with Lord-Alge, rather than Needham. I have a feeling the "Chris is really busy, so we should go with Mark" thing was just an excuse to smooth things over.
But that's just my perception of it.

You know, I have to wonder if Lindsey really did do what best served the songs... I mean, even you have criticized the mix on this album as being uneven and sloppy in places.
Did he really do what was best for the songs, or is it that Lindsey had his heart settled on Needham, and refused to see anyone else as a possibility?
"Destiny Rules" (the only track Lord-Alge mixed) is one of the best sounding songs on the album, sonically, and Lord-Alge's radio mix for "Say You Will" blows Needham's mix out of the water.

Stevie explained her qualms about Needham's mixes, not as them lacking commercial appeal, but rather that they left her feeling cold. She said that she wants to feel as warm about the songs as she did when she was first sitting at the piano writing them. Her desire to use Lord-Alge seemed to have nothing to do with making the album sound more commercial, and everything to do with making the album sound as best it could.

And I don't think that Stevie has less integrity than Lindsey, just because she wants to sell a decent amount of albums.
Lindsey must want that too, in his heart of hearts, or he would have just released 'Gift of Screws' as it was, and let those 300,000 people buy it.

We can't have our cake and eat it too. If one wants to do everything their way, and never compromise their "artistic integrity," then they can go do that... but they better not expect to make a lot of money.
If, however, one wants to make a lot of money, so they can live beyond comfortably, and have an expensive car, and buy beautiful things for their wife, then they have to be willing to make some business-minded compromises.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Where do people get this idea? Most wildly successful bands have one leader. And the exceptions are very few. Compromise does not good music make. Period.

And all of those bands eventually break up, because the other members get sick of kow-towing to one guy's know-it-all ways.

[Les]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
[B]We didn't get to hear that phone call though, so we have no idea how Mick might have explained it to Lindsey. For all we know, Mick might have explained it to him exactly the way he explained it to the cameras, but Lindsey might have still felt that Mick was going back on his word.

I don't think there was a phone call. That was sort of the point of Lindsey's distress. Lindsey said Mick was just treating the change of heart rather lightly, like, "Oh yeah, forgot to call you" when obvously Lindsey thought it was a bigger deal than that and something he should have mentioned.

Did he really do what was best for the songs, or is it that Lindsey had his heart settled on Needham, and refused to see anyone else as a possibility?

Lindsey didn't veto Chris. The footage didn't show him sitting in Chris' studio criticizing Chris' work. Stevie did that. Lindsey said it was her decision to make. She made it. Just as Lindsey had to take into account the finances of the situation, Stevie had to take into account the timeframe of the mixing. She made a choice.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by Les
Lindsey didn't veto Chris. The footage didn't show him sitting in Chris' studio criticizing Chris' work. Stevie did that. Lindsey said it was her decision to make. She made it. Just as Lindsey had to take into account the finances of the situation, Stevie had to take into account the timeframe of the mixing. She made a choice.

Right.

Johnny, I have criticized the mix, yes. But judging from what I have heard of the "singles," I don't know that I would have liked Chris' stuff better. Perhaps I would.

Probably at the core of my criticism is the disjointed feel of the album. And while the mix on a couple of songs I think could have been better (for instance, harmony vocals are too loud on Peacekeeper) my main issue is not the mix.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by Les
I don't think there was a phone call. That was sort of the point of Lindsey's distress. Lindsey said Mick was just treating the change of heart rather lightly, like, "Oh yeah, forgot to call you" when obvously Lindsey thought it was a bigger deal than that and something he should have mentioned.

My mistake... I had forgotten his wording, and I was thinking he said that Mick called him and just casually said, "oh, i changed my mind."

Sorry for the mistake.

Originally posted by Les
Lindsey didn't veto Chris. The footage didn't show him sitting in Chris' studio criticizing Chris' work. Stevie did that. Lindsey said it was her decision to make. She made it. Just as Lindsey had to take into account the finances of the situation, Stevie had to take into account the timeframe of the mixing. She made a choice.

No, Lindsey didn't veto Chris, but he sure didn't seem willing to look at him as a possibility either, did he?
The only reason Lord-Alge was even in the equation was because Stevie wanted him, and Lindsey seemed to only begrudgingly consider him. Right from the outset, he was already listing all the reasons why he didn't want Chris... and from the footage we saw, it seems his mind was made up, with no thought to actually considering the guy a viable choice for mixer.

Again, Stevie was criticizing Lord-Alge's mix, but I still feel it's because she's comfortable with him and feels she can make the suggestions she wants without ruffling feathers.
Stevie's been working with Lord-Alge for years, so obviously she likes his work.

At any rate, I'm not trying to point fingers at Lindsey or blame him for something that doesn't even require blame.
I just completely disagree with the whole "Lindsey has artistic integrity, while Stevie just wants to sell albums" arguments.

[Les]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
[B]No, Lindsey didn't veto Chris, but he sure didn't seem willing to look at him as a possibility either, did he?

Clearly, Chris wasn't Lindsey's first choice. (I believe Lindsey has also worked with Chris in the past as well). Nevertheless, he proved himself willing to look at Chris by, in fact, being willing to look at Chris. Hehe. They did send songs to Chris and Chris did try his hand at them. That seems willing to me.

Right from the outset, he was already listing all the reasons why he didn't want Chris... and from the footage we saw, it seems his mind was made up, with no thought to actually considering the guy a viable choice for mixer.

I disagree. I think he knew Stevie wanted Chris to be a viable candidate and so he put his qualms aside and said it was up to Stevie to decide.

At any rate, I'm not trying to point fingers at Lindsey or blame him for something that doesn't even require blame.

Oh, okay, I kind of thought you were. Just joking with you JS.

[Johnny Stew]

Obviously he let Stevie have the opportunity to see what Chris could do with the mixes... that can't be argued.
But I still felt she was more willing to consider Needham (as long as she could also see what Lord-Alge might do), than Lindsey was to consider Lord-Alge.

At any rate, it's all water under the bridge.
Over a year later, after all of the arguments and bickering, they're still on the road and adding additional dates every time we turn around... so they're obviously pleased with the final results, and are getting along well enough to keep this going.

And I should add, that the only reason i replied to the thread at all, was because of the issue of Stevie & Mick being perceived as ruling the proceedings, and making poor Lindsey do their bidding. Which I think it's a totally off-base opinion, and I wanted to comment on it. My personal opinion is that they were all right at various times, and wrong at various times... but they should each be mindful of the others' opinions, and willing to make compromises happily, not just begrudgingly.

[Les]

And I should add, that the only reason i replied to the thread at all, was because of the issue of Stevie & Mick being perceived as ruling the proceedings, and making poor Lindsey do their bidding.

Yeah, I know where you're coming from. I don't see that either. I don't think the reverse is true either, though.

[chiliD]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I'm not sure why people seem so surprised that Lindsey is driving a Mercedes.

Mercedes? I could've sworn it was the top-o'-the-line BMW. (He's been driving them since he had a 2002 in 1975!!!)

[CarneVaca]

Chili, it was definitely a Benz. One of those big, ugly ones. I would have gone for the Bimmer myself.

[strandinthewind]

It was an S class Mercedes circa 1997-99. They ran about $80,000 or more depending of the model, etc.

What can I say, I am a car buff as well

John's essentially habd built Aston Martin convertible (I think it could have been a coupe) was by far the coolest and most expensive car I saw on the doc.!!!!!!!!

[sodascouts]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Lindsey mentioned that apparently he found out about Mick's change of heart through some indirect channel. Or did I misunderstand that? This was during the footage with Lindsey in the car. I'll have to review it, but it seemed that something less-than-straightforward happened there.

My impression was that initially Mick said it was a great idea, then clammed up about it. At one point Lindsey says the issue had been "sidestepped." However, in the car, Lindsey didn't say he'd found out through indirect channels. He did say that when Mick finally did tell him, he had acted like it was no big deal - like "Oh yeah, I no longer think we should do a double album. Didn't I tell you that? Sorry! Forgot to call."

I also was curious about Lindsey's comment that Stevie might drop out after doing 40 dates on the tour and it would therefore not be cost effective. Puzzling words, which seemed somewhat out of context. Had she threatened to do that?

Yes! I noticed this too. Sure sounds like it....

Well, they went with Needham because Stevie didn't like Chris' mixes. Lindsey seemed to instinctively know who would do the mixes that would best serve the songs. And he was afraid Chris would do an assembly-line approach that Lindsey simply didn't want, and rightly. Here is another example in which Stevie was pushing for commercial and Lindsey was pushing for what would best serve the songs.

If Stevie was concerned solely with the commercial, then she wouldn't have been open to Mark at all. I was impressed that she didn't stubbornly insist on her pick. Instead, she listened to both and made an intelligent decision based on what she heard, with consideration given to practicalities like time frame. What's wrong with that? Don't most people shop around before deciding on something? Using this to criticize Stevie as too commercial seems pretty contrived to me.