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  #76  
Old 03-18-2013, 01:46 PM
michelej1 michelej1 is offline
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With the context added (thanks to the NPR transcript), float in like goddesses translates into having to command respect.

Michele
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  #77  
Old 03-18-2013, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by michelej1 View Post

To me, Stevie is saying the same thing that she said many years ago, that in Fritz and then in FM she told those men that she would be equal to them on stage AND that she would not be carrying the equipment cases backstage.
except of course that the men in the bands *were* lugging equipment cases... so she kinda wants to have her cake and eat it too.. ie, be seen/treated as an equal in terms of songwriting and power in the band, but then wants to be treated in a deferential manner and not expected to do any heavy lifting or dirty work because she's a delicate princess whom the gallant knights should want to protect and defend. That part undermines her message as well.
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  #78  
Old 03-18-2013, 04:55 PM
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I don't know if people take away that Stevie thinks women have to look beautiful, but I do think the comment seems flighty and undermines the other part of her message.
To each their own indeed then.

I remember Stevie talking about how she couldn't do all the heavy lifting of the instruments on stage like the others do, like Lindsey and John do, and she was solidly deferential to them. She said she couldn't do what they do. She IS physically far far weaker and it'd be weird for anyone to pretend that she isn't.

Last edited by redbird : 03-18-2013 at 05:05 PM.
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  #79  
Old 03-18-2013, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by WildHearted View Post
For what it's worth, this same article was posted on Oh No They Didnt, a gossip blog notorious for cutting down celebrities (and which also happens to have a very strong feminist presence). There's basically 100+ comments of people agreeing with her.

http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com...?view=comments
On my personal blog, maybe 10% of people care about Stevie Nicks or Fleetwood Mac, and 80% of people intensively and at times academically care about feminism. Nobody has taken this comment to mean "I'm such a princess and women who aren't princesses like me deserve what they get."
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Old 03-18-2013, 06:14 PM
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Sorry. I've got a fever and a headache and really cranky. I'm not myself today. I was seriously coming here to delete my comment hoping nobody had seen it. I'm really ashamed.
awww no worries! but thanks for the apology, that was really nice.

hope you get better soon, and that you managed to get your tix.
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  #81  
Old 03-19-2013, 08:32 AM
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Gee, I thought that every member of this forum had a contribution to make, regardless of where their preferences (band-wise) might lie. It's important to respect everyone's views, whether we agree with them or not. Some healthy discussion, devoid of vilification, ought to be the order of the day.
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  #82  
Old 03-19-2013, 02:36 PM
michelej1 michelej1 is offline
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To each their own indeed then.

I remember Stevie talking about how she couldn't do all the heavy lifting of the instruments on stage like the others do, like Lindsey and John do, and she was solidly deferential to them. She said she couldn't do what they do. She IS physically far far weaker and it'd be weird for anyone to pretend that she isn't.
She didn't say it like she couldn't physically do it. She said it like it's not something that a lady would do or would be asked to do. I'm not saying that she should be lugging equipment or not lugging it one way or another. I'm saying that I think she tends to assign gender labels herself, in a way that I think is itself a form of sexism. Well, gender labels to women. I've never heard her say anything about what men should do or expect them to fit into their more stereotypical roles, but I have seen her make comments that suggest women should do that in the past.

As for the floating goddess comment, it just sounded flaky to me. Still, I don't think it suggested that women who are not "princesses" should be discriminated against, however. In fact, I don't think she said that women deserve to be treated shabbily if they don't do this or that at all. She did not suggest that women have brought the differential treatment on themselves, in this latest comment.

Michele
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  #83  
Old 03-19-2013, 02:41 PM
michelej1 michelej1 is offline
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Originally Posted by redbird View Post

I remember Stevie talking about how she couldn't do all the heavy lifting of the instruments on stage like the others do, like Lindsey and John do, and she was solidly deferential to them. She said she couldn't do what they do. She IS physically far far weaker and it'd be weird for anyone to pretend that she isn't.
Yes, she did talk about playing an instrument on stage recently. However, she wasn't talking about the guitars in the statement to which I refer. She was talking about back when they were poor and would have to set up the stage themselves, packing, unpacking and carrying the equipment to the stage to set it up. It wasn't a question of pretending there are no physical differences between men and women. It was a gender role assignment issue.

Michele
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  #84  
Old 03-19-2013, 02:55 PM
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I'm all for women's rights. I'm a very independent 17 y/o female, but dam, Stevie, you think mighty highly of yourself, don't ya?. " We have to float like goddesses" PPPPLLLEEEAAASSSSEEE, Stevie, stop there.

Yes, women do need to show men that we can do the same things as them, and some things we can do better. I'd love to see a man go through having a period or pregnancy, that way men, will know what its like to be a woman, but also I'd like to feel whats its like to go through some of the crap men go through.

Goddesses? Yes, they are powerful, but yet they're expected to be beautiful, have manners, and allot of stuff that I don't want/ have nor do I to want to have that stuff.
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  #85  
Old 03-19-2013, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Phil View Post
Gee, I thought that every member of this forum had a contribution to make, regardless of where their preferences (band-wise) might lie. It's important to respect everyone's views, whether we agree with them or not. Some healthy discussion, devoid of vilification, ought to be the order of the day.
We haven't had this kind of heated, yet thought provoking discussion in some time. I, for one, am very much enjoying seeing all these ideas debated.

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Originally Posted by michelej1 View Post
She didn't say it like she couldn't physically do it. She said it like it's not something that a lady would do or would be asked to do. I'm not saying that she should be lugging equipment or not lugging it one way or another. I'm saying that I think she tends to assign gender labels herself, in a way that I think is itself a form of sexism. Well, gender labels to women. I've never heard her say anything about what men should do or expect them to fit into their more stereotypical roles, but I have seen her make comments that suggest women should do that in the past.

As for the floating goddess comment, it just sounded flaky to me. Still, I don't think it suggested that women who are not "princesses" should be discriminated against, however. In fact, I don't think she said that women deserve to be treated shabbily if they don't do this or that at all. She did not suggest that women have brought the differential treatment on themselves, in this latest comment.

Michele
You're totally right. I remember one time she said she doesn't drink anymore (which we've all seen footage of her drinking over & over, but I digress), because men are allowed to be drunk onstage/in public, but if a woman ever does that, it's looked down upon & never forgotten. A true feminist would view that summation to be utterly sexist, and eschew it.

I also tend to think it's a terribly insulting to women musicians when she constantly throws around the fact that as a woman, she would not have been able to have children and be a rock star. Plenty of women have successfully pulled it off. Plenty of women have had long marriages & balanced their music careers, too. I think it's completely her prerogative to forgo marriage & children for her career. But when she says she wasn't capable of combining marriage and/or children with her career, that's when her feminist credentials get a bit questionable, in my eyes.
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  #86  
Old 03-19-2013, 03:21 PM
michelej1 michelej1 is offline
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The thing about Stevie is, lest we forget, she was born in 1948 and some of her ideas are from that era. But I think she has evolved some over the years. There's no question that she supports other women and believes in shaping the independence of those who come after her. I think Sheryl, Vanessa and Taylor Swift are all examples of that. But sometimes with these people (Christine too) you just have to follow the pattern of equality they set with their LIVES and ignore some of their words, because the words sometimes don't conform to their achievements. And Stevie does -- or maybe she's outgrowing it now, but she did -- have a tendency to want women to be feminine, because she felt that helped them advance without challenge.

Quote:
I tend to get dressed up every single night so that everybody knows that when I walk in that this is serious. I dont ever go to the studio in jeans and tennis shoes, ever. I always dress up because I know that if I walk in there, even if Im ten pounds overweight, and Im dressed up and I look pretty, then everyone in that room says wow, she must have really thought she was going somewhere cause look at the rest of all of you. And I insist upon it with the girls too because if you dont look like you care after these guys have been around you for a couple of months you are going to become like an old shoe. I am never going to become like an old shoe to any of the men in my life, ever. So they are always going to take me serious on that basis and its unfortunate that you have to do that, its a big game, but it works.
Quote:
"It says in the Highwayman, she considers slowing down,' but then he would never win. She purposely lets him win because its easier to let him win. She gets a lot further if she just lets him win. And I learned that a long time ago if I was going to be accepted as anything, as a songwriter, as a person, as anything that I would have to be very quiet, unaggressive around them, feminine and trick them to death. And it worked. See I love them and I respect them so much, and they are, as far as Im concerned the greatest songwriters and all I ever wanted from them was a pat on the back saying not bad Stevie.'
Or saying that men should know women are strong:
Quote:
"And maybe if they fed that a little bit, all of this women's liberation would go away and everybody would be happy. If men gave us just a little more credit and an extra hug and said, "Good job," that would solve a lot of it. Women want to be beautiful, sweet, feminine and loving. But they also want to be thought of as intelligent and necessary. And even if your woman is not all those things, you should want her to feel good about herself, to believe in herself."
Quote:
"I lived in a world of men. I had very few girlfriends. I mean Lindsey and I from the very beginning lived in a room maybe this size with his ten or eleven friends and me. And in order to be accepted as anything else other than as Lindsey's pretty girlfriend, the one who makes coffee for us, or pours us a glass of wine, or makes sure we have food if we are hungry, you know the one who keeps this place looking really nice. In order for me to be accepted by them as anything more than that, I had to be very careful, walk very quietly, say very little, and observe, and so I did. And that went right straight into Fleetwood Mac, I did the same thing. And that went straight into meeting The Eagles and all the other bands that I met, or the men in the bands that I met, that in order to be accepted as a musician, singer, songwriter, poet, I couldn't say too much and if I did I would instantly get thrown out.
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  #87  
Old 03-19-2013, 04:13 PM
KateTheCursed KateTheCursed is offline
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And Stevie does -- or maybe she's outgrowing it now, but she did -- have a tendency to want women to be feminine, because she felt that helped them advance without challenge.
That's not just a Stevie thing. Dolly Parton has said something similar...along the lines that she didn't mind that people thought she was just another dumb blonde because she knew she wasn't really dumb or blonde. The thing about true feminism is that there is no one right feminine ideal. Some want to achieve their equality and independence by proving themselves through masculine confines. Other's want to achieve their equality and independence by being unapologetically and unyieldingly feminine. Both have merits. I'm a big, old tomboy who would die a 100 deaths if I had to wear chiffon & be girly every day to succeed. But you know what? That's a personal preference. So you go Joan Jett...you be as "masculine" and as rough around the edges as you want to be & you keep on keeping on your way until the day they pry the microphone from your cold, dead hand. And Stevie...never change! Be yourself everyday and keep encouraging other young women to be themselves (what ever form that may take). To thine own self be true.
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  #88  
Old 03-19-2013, 04:24 PM
michelej1 michelej1 is offline
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That's not just a Stevie thing. Dolly Parton has said something similar...along the lines that she didn't mind that people thought she was just another dumb blonde because she knew she wasn't really dumb or blonde.
It's fine to do what works for you, but just don't expect other people to do that same thing or counsel them to do it, judge when they don't, or make assumptions that they will/should. Dolly Parton was not advising other women to play the dumb blond role.

There are as many ways to be a woman as there are women.

Michele
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  #89  
Old 03-19-2013, 05:08 PM
KateTheCursed KateTheCursed is offline
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Originally Posted by michelej1 View Post
It's fine to do what works for you, but just don't expect other people to do that same thing or counsel them to do it, judge when they don't, or make assumptions that they will/should. Dolly Parton was not advising other women to play the dumb blond role.

There are as many ways to be a woman as there are women.

Michele
When has Stevie ever tried to turn the next generation of artists into little mini-me's? Just because she has a very strong ideal of who & what she is doesn't mean she's ever tried to repaint the world in her image. Being proud & comfortable in one's own skin does not equate to looking down your nose at anyone who's different. Let's look at this from a different perspective. We've considered the Stevie of the late 70's & early 80's that although she wasn't always taken seriously she was one of the most famous and successful women in the music industry. As such she garnered a fair degree of imitators and at the very least respect was given lip service. Since 1997 she has been heralded as some kind of Earth Mother, living legend that has and continues to inspire multiple generations of women artist. We have not, however, considered the Stevie of the late 80's and early 90's. She was out of step with the mainstream. She couldn't pay for airtime. On good days, she was seen as a quaint reminder of happy memories of another time. On bad days, she was the butt of jokes. Through it all she remained unapologetically and unsuccessfully feminine. I realize that Stevie was not at her best at this time. She was struggling with a prescription drug problem and battling her weight. Had drugs not been an issue, I have no doubt that the music she might have created during this time would have been more dynamic. I also have no doubt that it still would have been out of touch with the mainstream because Stevie still would have been Stevie. Moreover, flighty though she may at times seem, I don't believe Stevie is a dumb blonde any more than Dolly Parton is a dumb blonde. I believe she is intelligent enough to recognize that had all of the ensuing female artists been cut out of the same cloth as Stevie herself, then she would have lost a certain individuality that has made her stand out all these years. No doubt Stevie prefers that women maintain their femininity. That's a personal preference...we all have those. That doesn't mean Stevie's saying that the female artist has to be feminine to be successful. IMO she's saying a woman should be able to be their own the creation, not the creation of a bunch of spin artists trying to get rich and use of this year's flavor before moving on to the next crop. It's got to hurt seeing talented young artists being reduced to kleenex. Snatch one of them up; use them; cast them aside; start again...over and over and over again.
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  #90  
Old 03-19-2013, 05:21 PM
michelej1 michelej1 is offline
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^in the comments I quoted Stevue was not only sharing her own philosophy but saying thatvother women should do that too. She may have evolved since then, but in the past she has often expressed antiquated notions of womanhood. It doesn't make her bad. It makes her a product of her generation. Her life is often more representative of equality than her words are. Michele
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