Potential reached vs. potential unrealized

[sharksfan2000]

People have been discussing a lot of guitarists in recent threads here and on the Pre-Rumours boards - Bloomfield, Clapton, Hendrix, SRV, and others, as well as Green and Kirwan. It got me thinking...so many of these great players had their careers sidelined or ended altogether by drugs, illness, or an early death. Who among these guitarists do you feel probably reached their full potential before things went bad for them? Which ones do you think never did reach the heights they were capable of?

It's a big "what if" game of course. What about Green for starters...I wonder if he'd taken his playing style about as far as he could when he started to go downhill in 1970. To be sure, it's wonderful that he's still with us and still playing, but few would argue that his post-1970 work is anywhere near what he was doing prior to that. He certainly was searching for something new once he left Fleetwood Mac, but it never seemed like he found it, and perhaps he never would have even had his health remained good. So maybe we're already hearing the best he could have given us.

And what about the other players mentioned above (and others besides them too). It's sad, and even tragic, how things ended up for many of these guitarists, but I often think most of them would not have given us anything better than they already had. Hendrix could be the big exception, but I'm not even sure about him sometimes. I think Clapton hit his peak early...his Derek & the Dominoes work is fine, but to me it's not nearly as groundbreaking or exciting as his playing with Mayall and much of his work with Cream.

Many great musicians did their groundbreaking work early in their careers and then spent lots of time trying to live up to that early acclaim. Some pushed farther and acheived even greater things but many did not.

What do other people think about all this?

PS - sorry for getting into comparisons, Vinnie

[snoot]

Originally Posted by sharksfan2000

People have been discussing a lot of guitarists in recent threads here and on the Pre-Rumours boards - Bloomfield, Clapton, Hendrix, SRV, and others, as well as Green and Kirwan. It got me thinking...so many of these great players had their careers sidelined or ended altogether by drugs, illness, or an early death. Who among these guitarists do you feel probably reached their full potential before things went bad for them? Which ones do you think never did reach the heights they were capable of?

Wo, what a question. That's a handful - and a head full - to contemplate and size up squarely. Not sure if it can be done, at least to full justice. You pulled a stumper in some ways sharky! Congratz

It's a big "what if" game of course. What about Green for starters...I wonder if he'd taken his playing style about as far as he could when he started to go downhill in 1970. To be sure, it's wonderful that he's still with us and still playing, but few would argue that his post-1970 work is anywhere near what he was doing prior to that. He certainly was searching for something new once he left Fleetwood Mac, but it never seemed like he found it, and perhaps he never would have even had his health remained good. So maybe we're already hearing the best he could have given us.

Good point you make, framed well into the bargain. But no, Peter did not hit his peak imo. Now you all know my biases, but I think he did with Jeremy after those first two releases (something I bet both he AND Jeremy knew), but not with Danny. No chance. [Along the same lines though, and in fairness, I really wished Jeremy and Danny had done a Kiln House volume two, just to see where they and Christy may have taken things on a more subdued but polished path]. Did Peter reach the top of his own private curve? I think he may have wondered this himself by 1970, only to succumb to doubt regarding his Mac accomplishments, to the conventional framings we often expect in songs, and guilt over having reached the kind of success, accolades and wealth most only dream of.

And what about the other players mentioned above (and others besides them too). It's sad, and even tragic, how things ended up for many of these guitarists, but I often think most of them would not have given us anything better than they already had. Hendrix could be the big exception, but I'm not even sure about him sometimes. I think Clapton hit his peak early...his Derek & the Dominoes work is fine, but to me it's not nearly as groundbreaking or exciting as his playing with Mayall and much of his work with Cream.

Agree totally, only with D&D Clapton hit his songwriting apex. His guitar work with Allman is still phenomenal, arguably not quite as much of a rush as it was in his earlier days from Yardbirds to Blind Faith. But that said, I do hold Layla And Other Love Songs to be his greatest coup de grace evah, as do many others.

Many great musicians did their groundbreaking work early in their careers and then spent lots of time trying to live up to that early acclaim. Some pushed farther and acheived even greater things but many did not.

How true, how true. Like great athletes, you train and work hard during your formative years, eventfully flower to a peak period at some point in your youth (take that "youthful" span however you care to), hang on for the ride as best you can for a while, then slowly reside a bit, eventually revisiting past glories - at least to some extent. Like life itself, no?

The knack, much like growing older ever so gracefully, is to keep going, keep pushing, putting your best foot forward at all times. It's just that you can't always fool the audience (unless you're Kiss, or some glam bam hair band) and especially your longtime fanbase, who know the pulse better than anyone. And thus the catering, the surrender in so many ways, we often see to revisiting old glories, and living in the past.

[greenmanastrat]

May i be so bold as to throw george harrison in the mix here as well, a vastly underated guitarist, incredibly so. I think he had a huge influence on clappo´s songwriting without which maybe the great layla album wouldnt have been made maybe.Also although duane played amazing slide work and was a huge catalyst on the layla album, however i can´t stand his regular lead playing on it, he doesnt breathe...probably just jammin i guess and they kept it on..his slide playing is sublime dont get me wrong .

As for reached potential one man who did is Mr jimmy page and jeff beck(want to call him geoffrey )....now neither for me are blues guitarist not up for debate...but i think these two defo reched their potential.

Lysergic took down greeny he had only just started, how old was he like 24 when he quit....?

[snoot]

Great question from sharkey, and yet nobody wants to take a crack at it but greenmanastrat? Sheez. Where are all the blues bangers known to haunt the Green forum?

Jimmy Page? Definitely. Jeff Beck? Me thinks so too, especially if you consider he never was a prolific songwriter. His guitar pyrotechnics, like those of Page, are out of this world though, and in that department he left a nice body of work. George Harrison? Yep, again me thinks he attained all that one should to earn their place in the guitar heaven. Somewhat under-rated as a picker but very original in his style. Playing lead guitar in the most popular R&R band of all time gives you certain chops, almost by default. Much like Roger McGuinn of the Byrds, under-rated somewhat but fresh. Duane Allman, hmm? Probably was going to take that Gibson LP of his to greater heights, I could easily see that, but he never was much of a composer so ... hmmm (well, looking past his touted improvisational abilities, whether delivered in the studio, during sessions work, or on the stage). Then again, there's Little Martha by his hand - and damn if that isn't a gorgeous little piece - so who knows what more could have come from his font with time.

As for Greeny, no way he reached full potential in those 23 or 24 years before the devil beguiled him, and stole much of his thunder. Cryin' shame too. I'd definitely say the same for Danny, he went down way before his time (and partly with Green's soul). And then there's our friend Jeremy, should he have chosen to put his heart and soul into such pursuits back in those wild days we call yesteryear. Big IF there. [Can't blame him for finding a different calling though, considering what was going down around him. Fact is, he may not have made it to the present millennium in one piece without finding an "out" like he did].

[Wouter Vuijk]

Originally Posted by snoot

Great question from sharkey, and yet nobody wants to take a crack at it but greenmanastrat? Sheez. Where are all the blues bangers known to haunt the Green forum?

OK, OK. Here's my shot. Paul Kossoff!!!!!. Reached his height and passed away due to drugs at 25 years of age, after certainly having reached his top with FREE. Could he have reached more without the drugs problem? I doubt it.
Check out:
http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=o-2WK7y3sas
and:
http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=YylGLV...eature=related
and:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Kossoff

[mzero]

Originally Posted by sharksfan2000

People have been discussing a lot of guitarists in recent threads here and on the Pre-Rumours boards - Bloomfield, Clapton, Hendrix, SRV, and others, as well as Green and Kirwan. It got me thinking...so many of these great players had their careers sidelined or ended altogether by drugs, illness, or an early death. Who among these guitarists do you feel probably reached their full potential before things went bad for them? Which ones do you think never did reach the heights they were capable of?......

Many great musicians did their groundbreaking work early in their careers and then spent lots of time trying to live up to that early acclaim. Some pushed farther and acheived even greater things but many did not.

What do other people think about all this?

PS - sorry for getting into comparisons, Vinnie

somehow i missed this thread. an interesting case between the two extremes (reached potential before, never reached potential) and for me the saddest was rory gallagher. was a triple threat like peter (great player, writer, and singer) that distinguished him from the players (beck, kossoff) and less multi-faceted (srv, page,clapton). had a long career but (i think) avoided pulling a clapton (uninspired after early 70's). died too early - had more great music left (his contribution to the peter green tribute record is stunning). should be in the rock and roll hall too.... zero

[doodyhead]

a lot of people should be out of the hall of fame

[doodyhead]

1981, bluesman Mike Bloomfield dies at age 37 from a drug overdose in San Francisco … he joined The Paul Butterfield Blues Band in 1965 … his stinging—and sometimes frenetic—lead guitar playing combined elements of blues, jazz, and Indian raga to help advance the popularity of the blues among white audiences at such venues as The Fillmore in San Francisco … Bloomfield also played on Bob Dylan’s Highway 61 Revisited that included the huge hit “Like A Rolling Stone” … he also played the Monterey Pop Festival with the self-described “all-American music band” The Electric Flag featuring drummer Buddy Miles … in 1968 Bloomfield recorded a series of blues-based jams in the studio with organist Al Kooper … the resulting album Super Session reached the Top 20 and won a gold record … Bloomfield continued performing as a solo artist and with various groups … in 2003, Rolling Stone placed him number 22 on their ranking of “100 Greatest Guitarists of All Time” …

[sjpdg]

This may be a little of topic, but here we go.

No offense meant or intended, but I don't know that I'd call what Jeremy found for his reason the leave FM a good "out". His "religious" group has been charged with some pretty dispicable things in regards to young, underage girls, including their own children. Is this a good "out" for a musician who's having a hard time avoiding drugs and alcohol? I'd like to think not.

Not to take anything at all away from Jeremy's playing!! He's fantastic on those early FM albums with that slide guitar. He's fantastic. My problem is with his moral choices and putting what his "religious" group is accused of under the heading of "God". That's my problem.

Now, to the question of whether or not Greeny, Danny or Jeremy either together or individually met their potential, I would say no in all three cases. Peter and Danny both fell into drugs much harder and that of course crushed their potential for further greatness. Danny will never play again and Peter only plays now (as far as I know) when the mood sort of suits him. Jeremy still plays, not very often, but his "religion" is more important to him.

Those are my humble opinions on the subject.