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  #76  
Old 10-21-2018, 06:11 PM
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Jesus Christ, just get a room already!
Hi, my name is Karen Johnston...
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  #77  
Old 10-21-2018, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bombaysaffires View Post
Interesting that many still don't understand or don't want to understand the spark for many people's ...

They've resorted to tricks like having side players speak in interviews to say how great things are on tour.

If people don't like reading nasty comments, skip over them. It's not hard. This cuts both ways. Personal attacks from one poster to another are just not acceptable. Argue the point someone is making but don't attack the person. There has been too much of that on here for sure. But bashing a band member is not the same thing.
I appreciate your excellent post, bombaysapphires. Very well said. I hope you don't mind if I respond to a few of your points. For me, it's not that I don't understand or don't want to understand the spark for why many people feel angry at FM right now. I get it, and I think most people do. It's not that we don't care... we just don't want to read about your anger on every thread. That might sound harsh, but it gets old. I really hope I haven't angered you by saying that, and I can see why you would get angry, but I'm just trying to explain my POV. My frustration is not that people hate Stevie and FM now, or are furious with them, or however you want to say it... my frustration is that a few people on this board are relentless about sharing their hatred for FM now by commenting on every thread in every forum on this board. I would happily stick to the Present Band board if it would mean not having to read on every thread how evil Stevie and Mick are for firing Lindsey, but the same posters even go there and make the same nasty comments they've made on every other board here. I also understand that you can relate to that, as Lindsey has been vilified here, too. So what's the solution?

Another point you mentioned, really in passing, but it caught my eye so I wanted to respond to it, was "they've resorted to tricks like having side players speak in interviews to say how great things are on tour." I think you're referring to the newspaper interview with Ricky Petersen. I think a lot of us are hypersensitive right now (please note I absolutely am including myself here), as that is the only way I can describe your remark. What I see as a sweet interview in a newspaper with a 'small town boy who made good,' you see as a plot by the band to use innocent people in order to do damage control. I have seen many interviews like this, where a city newspaper interviews someone local involved in some event, whether it be a concert, or a movie, or a play, etc. Sure, it's possible FM conspired to get that newspaper interview, but I really think it was just what it seemed to be- a simple interview with a local guy who is on a major tour making a stop in his hometown. I guess I mention this because I've been hypersensitive about certain things on this board, and read more into something than what was likely intended.

Lastly, you say that personal attacks from one poster to another are just not acceptable. I totally agree and I'm glad you feel the same way. But is it wrong to also say that personal attacks against the band members are just not acceptable? I'm not saying people shouldn't be vocal about their anger at any of the band members, past or present. But why do people have to be so nasty by calling them names? I understand completely that this board allows that... but do we have to stoop to that level, just because it's not against the rules? And I'm not directing that comment to just you, bombaysapphires- I'm directing it to everyone on this board, including myself. Can't people state their impassioned feelings without name calling? I think we can, but people choose not to. So what's the solution?

Anyway, like I said, thanks for your post, and for letting me respond. You gave me a lot to think about and I hope other people will take the time to read your words.
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  #78  
Old 10-21-2018, 06:23 PM
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Hi, my name is Karen Johnston...
That I do believe.

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  #79  
Old 10-21-2018, 07:18 PM
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again, missing the point that it's not that she did it as much as HOW she did it.

Not only that she gave the band an ultimatum but that she immediately had his replacement at hand. It suggests there was a degree of forethought, like maybe she had been just waiting for the right moment to make her move and finally get this guy out of her life. (ETA: she wants it both ways-- she wants him out, but she wants him to bail her out when she gets stuck on her songs, e.g., Soldier's Angel. So maybe she doesn't want him OUT of her life, she just wants to CONTROL him. "I need to be the boss")

The thing is, she could have gotten him out of her life at any point -- by leaving FM. And, if the rest of the band had been united that they wanted Lindsey out, they could have taken their vote at any time and then just kicked him out. (they claim now this is how it works- majority rules).

So the fact they hadn't done it suggests everyone else was ok with him, or able and willing to tolerate him, until one day Stevie wasn't. And then she leveraged her ability to put bums in seats (no one disputes she has the most ability for this) to force the rest of them to kick him out. Because that's what she did. She forced them. Me, or him. Now, could they have sided with him? Sure thing. And, just because they sided with her doesn't necessarily mean they agree with her FEELINGS about him.(Chris did a whole album and tour with him. In the documentary of making that Mick is all huggy and lovey with him, as is Chris). That's the point. She played on their greed and they fell in line as she knew they would. They sold him out for a buck.

Bands have members come and go. That's FM legacy. But the down and dirty, sneaky grubby way this has played out is shameful.
Ooh boy... so much reaching in this tirade. I guess there is no reason to remind you that all of the above is based on speculation that you have somehow twisted into fact in your mind. Even Lindsey's legal complaint didn't implicate Stevie the way you did. Of course this was a united band decision (because, um, it is a band). Everyone probably had different emotions about it, but they came to a resolution very, very quickly, which means there probably wasn't much reason for equivocation.

I guess if there is one side effect of the rise of "fake news" and conservative media, it is the tragic elevation of conspiracy theories into mainstream discourse. Everything is a conspiracy now (despite the fact that not a single conspiracy has ever been proven as fact) and everyone feels that every move is based on some evil shadow organization with malicious intent. So, by all means, let your imagination run wild with Stevie conspiracy theories. You know... there must be a reason why she only wears black...
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  #80  
Old 10-21-2018, 07:29 PM
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At the end of the day, Lindsey didn’t sign off on the tour. Sure, he verbally agreed in principle to do it, but something was holding him back from signing off.

Mike broke into “Johnny B. Goode” last night. I think that’s the type of deviation from the script that’s been missing for them. I can’t imagine a scenario where breaking into Chuck Berry wouldn’t make Mick and John’s day.

Lindsey will deviate from his setlist occasionally at his solo shows, at the end of the show, but never with Fleetwood Mac.
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  #81  
Old 10-21-2018, 07:38 PM
bombaysaffires bombaysaffires is offline
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Originally Posted by HejiraNYC View Post
Ooh boy... so much reaching in this tirade. I guess there is no reason to remind you that all of the above is based on speculation that you have somehow twisted into fact in your mind. Even Lindsey's legal complaint didn't implicate Stevie the way you did. Of course this was a united band decision (because, um, it is a band). Everyone probably had different emotions about it, but they came to a resolution very, very quickly, which means there probably wasn't much reason for equivocation.

I guess if there is one side effect of the rise of "fake news" and conservative media, it is the tragic elevation of conspiracy theories into mainstream discourse. Everything is a conspiracy now (despite the fact that not a single conspiracy has ever been proven as fact) and everyone feels that every move is based on some evil shadow organization with malicious intent. So, by all means, let your imagination run wild with Stevie conspiracy theories. You know... there must be a reason why she only wears black...

Interesting when discussion becomes labeled a tirade when someone has a different opinion. Now, if I'd engaged in name-calling of people on this board, that would be different.

I've also never speculated on the politics of anyone else on this forum, and the fact that someone speculates on mine, and then insinuates I am a conservative is the funniest thing I've ever read on here. Thanks for the laugh!

In short, it is indeed a fact that the band did not fire Lindsey until now. If you have evidence to the contrary, please share. Ugly word or not, that's what they did.

It was stated by the band that Stevie suggested Mike to replace Lindsey. Simple reading of band interviews/watching of band interviews on tv should suffice.

It was stated by Mick, Mike, Stevie and perhaps others as well in the tv interviews and Rolling Stone audio interviews that Mike was contacted about replacing Lindsey within days after Musicares. Again, basic reading and listening of recordings of the band.

If we are going to claim anyone is turning rumors into facts, let's consider the rumors that Lindsey was physically abusive to Stevie, that Lindsey definitely did something horrible the night of Musicares, that Lindsey was abusive to Stevie during SYW..... you can't have it both ways.

No one loved Stevie and her work more than I did. If you had told me years ago that I'd come down on Lindsey's side in a spat between them I'd have thought you were nuts.

For every posting on this board about Stevie screwing over Lindsey there's an equivalent post about Lindsey abusing Stevie, about Lindsey having no talent, about Lindsey's wife being a gold-digger, about Lindsey and his wife not really living together.....etc etc. For every post about Lindsey getting screwed there's at least two posts about how Stevie is perfect, all her songs are perfect, and gleeful comments about how many more solo albums she sold than Lindsey. In other words, one person's trash is another person's treasure. Those who can't stand a single criticism of Stevie do their fair share of reaching and fact-twisting.
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  #82  
Old 10-21-2018, 07:50 PM
Storms123 Storms123 is offline
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It's really tough to be a FM fan right now (at least for me) and it's tough actually to come to this board sometimes.
I am really struggling to get behind this incarnation of the group. It has nothing to do with the talent of this group (new and old), but everything to do with the lies, half truths and misinformation that was dispersed at the time we heard LB wasn't touring with them. That, coupled with the lack of regard by the band towards Lindsey's contribution to the FM in their statements was a slap in the face to FM fans of the Rumours 5 lineup. From my perspective, Lindsey and Stevie are bat $h*t crazy FOR and ABOUT each other period. And probably just a bit artistically nuts in general (that's not meant to be negative, misogny, sexist, btw) And that's not to say they are pining away for each other, because I don't mean that and I really don't believe that. Do I think there's love left here? YES. But it's more about how both of their careers would not have happened without each other, and I really do believe that!
I want to thank both BombaySapphires and BWBOY for their recent posts. Really nice to see open and differing views and opinions aired it a way that's not biting or cutting to "either side" but really encompassing the views of all. So nice to read--thank you .
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  #83  
Old 10-21-2018, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by lovethemac1 View Post
That I do believe.
I'm also Boston Irish, my extended family founded The Museum on the Parkway in Philly, ancestors drowned on the Titanic, my grandfather was a Teamster who worked for Joe Kennedy and my family had the largest recreational pot grow when pot became legal here. Think I'm weak? You think I don't have a feel for these things? I havent even talked about the criminal side of the family yet. You want some creds? No I won't back down. In the next installment I'll tell you what a blast it is to be followed by a government agency.
P.S. Ours is Rodin. http://www.rodinmuseum.org/ Jules and Etta would be so happy.
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Last edited by gldstwmn : 10-21-2018 at 08:26 PM. Reason: mispelling
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  #84  
Old 10-21-2018, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by bombaysaffires View Post
Interesting when discussion becomes labeled a tirade when someone has a different opinion. Now, if I'd engaged in name-calling of people on this board, that would be different.

I've also never speculated on the politics of anyone else on this forum, and the fact that someone speculates on mine, and then insinuates I am a conservative is the funniest thing I've ever read on here. Thanks for the laugh!

In short, it is indeed a fact that the band did not fire Lindsey until now. If you have evidence to the contrary, please share. Ugly word or not, that's what they did.

It was stated by the band that Stevie suggested Mike to replace Lindsey. Simple reading of band interviews/watching of band interviews on tv should suffice.

It was stated by Mick, Mike, Stevie and perhaps others as well in the tv interviews and Rolling Stone audio interviews that Mike was contacted about replacing Lindsey within days after Musicares. Again, basic reading and listening of recordings of the band.

If we are going to claim anyone is turning rumors into facts, let's consider the rumors that Lindsey was physically abusive to Stevie, that Lindsey definitely did something horrible the night of Musicares, that Lindsey was abusive to Stevie during SYW..... you can't have it both ways.

No one loved Stevie and her work more than I did. If you had told me years ago that I'd come down on Lindsey's side in a spat between them I'd have thought you were nuts.

For every posting on this board about Stevie screwing over Lindsey there's an equivalent post about Lindsey abusing Stevie, about Lindsey having no talent, about Lindsey's wife being a gold-digger, about Lindsey and his wife not really living together.....etc etc. For every post about Lindsey getting screwed there's at least two posts about how Stevie is perfect, all her songs are perfect, and gleeful comments about how many more solo albums she sold than Lindsey. In other words, one person's trash is another person's treasure. Those who can't stand a single criticism of Stevie do their fair share of reaching and fact-twisting.
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  #85  
Old 10-21-2018, 09:18 PM
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Lindsey may or may not have pitched a battle about the choice of intro music at Musicares (isn't it funny that so many on here whine about 'name the sources!' when a story comes out that makes Stevie look bad, but when there's an unnamed source that says Lindsey threw a fit at Musicares, well by golly it must be true!) and he mimed dancing while Stevie spoke (well after Chris and Mick checked their watches, laughed, then waltzed together).
The first I heard about this was in one of Lindsey’s interviews, and he admitted it.

Quote:
Rather than Stevie saying look, this is the final tour, and telling her manager to tell his manager that she had a list of conditions for the tour that she wanted from him or something that attempted to slog out one final tour she lays down an ultimatum to the band that he's out or she's out.
The fact he didn’t sign off on the tour makes me think he was the one with conditions.

Quote:
Given the speed at which the band immediately replaced Lindsey with one of Stevie's favorite guitarists and co-writers, Mick did not bother to act as band leader and try to keep the band together for their final tour but capitulated right away, and then was complicit in convincing John to support the decision and then saying it only takes a majority vote not a unanimous vote to kick someone out. The band agreed to kick out a member and bring in a specific new member within DAYS of that event.
Mike was the obvious choice. Lindsey getting sacked and Mike coming on board aren’t necessarily connected. They all knew the easiest way to make money was with the classic lineup. Still, given how fresh Tom’s death was for Stevie, the question of who to get if Lindsey had to go wasn’t something that required much thought.

Which all boils down to the fact I keep coming back to: Nobody knows exactly what went down to get to this point. It could be major, it could be horribly minor, or it could just be a matter of a situation going as far as it can go and a change needing to be made. Lots of speculation, but no actual facts.

The band wasn’t honest in some of their interviews, although Lindsey admittedly did try to delay the tour, so that wasn’t a complete lie. That just seemed like the one thing they could say that wouldn’t slander him publicly. That said, Lindsey admittedly didn’t sign off on the tour, and I’m curious as to what he was holding out for. Otherwise, he would have signed on. There’s just something not quite right about what either side has said.
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  #86  
Old 10-21-2018, 09:25 PM
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Mike was the obvious choice.
Only in Stevie's head, and obviously since sometime in 2017.

The obvious choice to everyone else is that she would deign to meet Lindsey halfway for once, regarding issues like schedules and band image or whatever else his requests may have been.
And another obvious choice would be that when she refused to give him an inch as usual and he still expressed a willingness to tour regardless, she wouldn't play the cruelest card of all and wantonly replace him.
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  #87  
Old 10-21-2018, 10:39 PM
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Only in Stevie's head, and obviously since sometime in 2017.
Sure. How many other available world class guitarists were there who’ve regularly played a Fleetwood Mac song with two bands, have already had a writing credit on a Fleetwood Mac album, and have toured with a member of the band?

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The obvious choice to everyone else is that she would deign to meet Lindsey halfway for once, regarding issues like schedules and band image or whatever else his requests may have been.
And another obvious choice would be that when she refused to give him an inch as usual and he still expressed a willingness to tour regardless, she wouldn't play the cruelest card of all and wantonly replace him.
Okay, but that ignores the whole “we don’t really know what happened” part of what I was saying. We don’t. Lots of conjecture and speculation, and taking one side as complete gospel before the whole story comes out (which may never happen). It’ll probably be like the Bob Welch lawsuit: lots of outrage, but all love for Mick after all the dust settles. And, I already addressed that the easiest way to make money was with the classic lineup.
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  #88  
Old 10-21-2018, 10:51 PM
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Okay, but that ignores the whole “we don’t really know what happened” part of what I was saying. We don’t. Lots of conjecture and speculation, and taking one side as complete gospel before the whole story comes out (which may never happen).
Precisely. So in the meantime or for posterity, I choose to stridently side with my current educated guesses based on everything that is available to us.

It's not my intention to ignore or deprive you of the option of shrugging and saying "Who knows?" or "Dearie me, yet another hiccup in the storied saga of Fleetwood Mac."
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  #89  
Old 10-21-2018, 11:45 PM
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I've also never speculated on the politics of anyone else on this forum, and the fact that someone speculates on mine, and then insinuates I am a conservative is the funniest thing I've ever read on here. Thanks for the laugh!
Is English your second language? I'm not trying to be shady... I'm just trying to justify what I perceive to be poor reading comprehension on your part. And if English is your second language, I totally understand why you're not quite getting my point. My point is that the rise of conservative media has elevated stupid conspiracy theories to the mainstream. I did not call you conservative.

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In short, it is indeed a fact that the band did not fire Lindsey until now. If you have evidence to the contrary, please share. Ugly word or not, that's what they did.
Stop it. Now you're just delving into semantics. When Mick demurs that "firing" is an "ugly word," he is not denying that Fleetwood Mac fired Lindsey. Mick was trying to come up with a less caustic term for what happened... which was that Lindsey was fired. He never, ever said or implied that Lindsey left on his own accord.

Quote:
It was stated by the band that Stevie suggested Mike to replace Lindsey. Simple reading of band interviews/watching of band interviews on tv should suffice.
So once they decided they couldn't move forward with Lindsey, what were they supposed to do? Just gaze at their navels until a random guitar player fell from the sky? Of course they probably had Options B, C, D, E, etc. when they finally decided to pull the plug on Lindsey. That's just common sense.

Quote:
It was stated by Mick, Mike, Stevie and perhaps others as well in the tv interviews and Rolling Stone audio interviews that Mike was contacted about replacing Lindsey within days after Musicares. Again, basic reading and listening of recordings of the band.

...and your point is...? What does that have to do with your narrative about everyone being greedy and Stevie holding everyone hostage and acting like a diva and conspiring to get out from under Lindsey's shadow?

Quote:
If we are going to claim anyone is turning rumors into facts, let's consider the rumors that Lindsey was physically abusive to Stevie, that Lindsey definitely did something horrible the night of Musicares, that Lindsey was abusive to Stevie during SYW..... you can't have it both ways.
We have Carol Ann's account. We have some degree of corroboration regarding Lindsey's anger management issues from Ken Caillat (and Richard Dashut too, I think?). We have Mick's account in his book about Lindsey chasing Stevie around Christine's cul de sac after he announced his departure. There are multiple accounts of the NZ show where Lindsey chucked his guitar at Stevie. Sure, you can be a Lindsey apologist, and that is your right. But the portrait of St. Lindsey that emerges after these accounts of his behavior does not exactly help to negate those allegations.

Quote:
For every posting on this board about Stevie screwing over Lindsey there's an equivalent post about Lindsey abusing Stevie, about Lindsey having no talent, about Lindsey's wife being a gold-digger, about Lindsey and his wife not really living together.....etc etc. For every post about Lindsey getting screwed there's at least two posts about how Stevie is perfect, all her songs are perfect, and gleeful comments about how many more solo albums she sold than Lindsey. In other words, one person's trash is another person's treasure. Those who can't stand a single criticism of Stevie do their fair share of reaching and fact-twisting.
Please show me one post by anyone that "Stevie is perfect, all her songs are perfect." I just happen to think that criticism has to be backed by more than just wacky conspiracy theories and connecting dots that are located in different time zones. If you are criticizing her work or her performance, it's all legit as long as you have observed it with your own eyes/ears. But formulating such strong stances about the character of someone you don't really know based on a limited dataset is naďve at best.
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  #90  
Old 10-21-2018, 11:55 PM
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We have Carol Ann's account. We have some degree of corroboration regarding Lindsey's anger management issues from Ken Caillat (and Richard Dashut too, I think?). We have Mick's account in his book about Lindsey chasing Stevie around Christine's cul de sac after he announced his departure. There are multiple accounts of the NZ show where Lindsey chucked his guitar at Stevie. Sure, you can be a Lindsey apologist, and that is your right. But the portrait of St. Lindsey that emerges after these accounts of his behavior does not exactly help to negate those allegations.
Okay. Stop. None of this played any part in Lindsey’s dismissal. At all.

Stevie is probably the queen of jumping on any trend, and I have zero doubt that in the Me Too era it would be all too easy for her to throw Lindsey under the bus if there was any merit to the allegations, especially now.
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