Kristen Buckingham joins Elle Decor “A-Listers”

[secret love]

Originally Posted by elle

yeah, i'd be probably still be pissed if i was him, although i guess at same point you just accept it as destiny. plus i don't know the real and whole story. but, i'm pissed now when i just think about not having GOS1 released and how all those songs were scattered around various albums. i'm pissed when i read currently ongoing SYW thread in Rumours forum and many people who are FM or SN fans first clearly do not appreciate those songs. i know it's stupid but when someone says Murrow or Red Rover are "weak" songs or throwaway songs makes me fume and i have to hold myself back from not posting in that thread.

guess it's kinda like you with BN reissue, only worse b/c there was NEVER an official album. yeah i have the MP3s, and it's amazing, but i would have still liked to have that out as an official release. LB solo release, as it was supposed to be.

i guess all the yoga / meditation / shrinkage may have played the role in LB's current attitude towards what happened.

and, i have to say, after i first heard his 6 SWS songs and once that album came out, i stopped feeling that bad about the whole GOS1 debacle, because artistically i felt LB has finally moved passed it. i did not feel that way when i listened to UTS and GOS (official). so maybe that also plays into LB's current acceptance - because eventually he may came out a better artist because of what happened in those 5-10 years.

You're funny, Elle. I know I am one of the people who said Murrow and Red Rover are weak songs. I don't mind that you disagree. Feel free to fume about it...lol...when it comes to music there are so many different strokes for different folks!

[elle]

Originally Posted by secret love

You're funny, Elle. I know I am one of the people who said Murrow and Red Rover are weak songs. I don't mind that you disagree. Feel free to fume about it...lol...when it comes to music there are so many different strokes for different folks!

i like your open mind and general attitude, secret love. you are open to healthy discussion and differing opinions and i appreciate that a lot, because many people get in a defensive mode instead, for whatever reason.

but see, although i agree with you that tastes are different, and very much so in FM world with so many different songwriters (and i especially appreciate that you came over to LB board to discuss this!), i think some songs are objectively weak, while others are objectively strong, regardless of whether one likes them.

i can appreciate that Red Rover or Murrow are not everybody's cup of tea, that they may be too frantic, too rocking, too much guitar for someone's taste, or whatever problem you have with them. but objectively those are strong songs. so that's where i make a distinction. some songs may be weak, but you or i may love them regardless, for whatever reason (Silver Girls comes to mind . others may be strong, but you or i may dislike them.

[secret love]

Originally Posted by elle

i like your open mind and general attitude, secret love. you are open to healthy discussion and differing opinions and i appreciate that a lot, because many people get in a defensive mode instead, for whatever reason.

but see, although i agree with you that tastes are different, and very much so in FM world with so many different songwriters (and i especially appreciate that you came over to LB board to discuss this!), i think some songs are objectively weak, while others are objectively strong, regardless of whether one likes them.

i can appreciate that Red Rover or Murrow are not everybody's cup of tea, that they may be too frantic, too rocking, too much guitar for someone's taste, or whatever problem you have with them. but objectively those are strong songs. so that's where i make a distinction. some songs may be weak, but you or i may love them regardless, for whatever reason (Silver Girls comes to mind . others may be strong, but you or i may dislike them.

I see what you mean, when I talk about songs being weak of course I can only rely on my own experiences of music in order to judge that. When I play Murrow for other people they have been known to find it very unsettling to the point of asking me to turn the song down or off. Red Rover I agree is a more objectively-strong song. And my personal opinion? There are very few songs on Fleetwood Mac's Say You Will album which I don't like: but yes, Murrow is one of them - I tried to like it I really did but just couldn't. Red Rover initially I enjoyed but I have listened to it enough for the song to lose the appeal it once had.

I actually am a lyricist. And I simply cannot say that the lyrics to Red Rover are objectively strong because I would be lying to myself. If I wrote a song like that I would not feel personally satisfied with it. But as I say, initially I liked it but it wore thin after a few listens and then began to sound tired, worn and cliched.

Again - I agree with you that objectively, we can consider Silver Girl to be a weak song. I love it too, though! And why? Not because Stevie's voice sounds pleasant, not because the music is good (Stevie's vocal on Silver Girl is sub-par and the music is boring)...I like the song because it was written about Sheryl Crow. And apparently this multi-millionaire (Sheryl) has problems just like us. Sure she has money and privilege. But according to Stevie's lyric: Sheryl was born into the wrong generation - S. Crow regrets not signing papers/contracts. Sheryl is a "wild adventurer"...she is a person who makes mistakes, whose life is not perfect and who Stevie clearly adores and counts as a true friend. And it is this story that I love: this honesty and openness. The lyric is just a reminder to me of how much Stevie loves, cares for, stands up for and protects her friends.

But the notion that a song can be "objectively strong" or "objectively weak" is an interesting one. For example, Rock Lobster by the B-52s, a song which so many people love, for me - is from a technical/instrumental perspective, a weak song. But it is so goddamn groovy! It doesn't take a virtuoso musician to play the opening riff but it just sounds so silly and fun that it makes you wanna dance and be happy aha.

Would you consider Rock Lobster strong or weak from an objective standpoint?

And within Fleetwood Mac: Running Through the Garden. Weak/strong?

ETA: Let me just clarify the reason why I don't like Murrow or Red Rover has very little to do with the music and everything to do with the lyric. The guitars sound just fine. Mick is in fine form. But what I really connect to in a song is the words. And Lindsey offered in Murrow a very interesting political comment (well...it is more of a political rant but anyways...) about contemporary journalism being in a state of disrepute. Fair enough. I agree. But enough with the melodrama of "pneumatic drills and sharpening knives, blood in the sky, are you dead or alive?" He is just ranting and raving and its is incoherent and illogical - and Linds is seems like an intelligent person and he is still capable of writing better lyrics than the Murrow lyric. Technically Murrow is a brilliant song but the guitar playing is just showy and too noisy for me. Red Rover: I love the instrumental track. I hate the lyric. Same problem.

Lindsey does not seem to have the skill to write lyrics which are accessible to the average listener, whilst remaining opaque so that there is no concern over people spreading rumours such as: "Oh my God did you hear Lindsey is finally Saying Goodbye to Stevie after 25 years and at last their relationship...is all over Red Rover?" Like sorry, Elle, I don't know if you like the lyrics is Red Rover or Say Goodbye for that matter - but I would be personally embarrassed to sing the words Lindsey does live when he performs Red Rover and Say Goodbye live in concert. Too cliched and transparent and all about Stevie, yet again. Stevie the woman who does not love him, and has felt rather indifferent about Lindsey for at least the past 15 years if not much longer. She counts him as a friend nothing more... and I think it is unfair for Lindsey to write these silly lyrics which are disingenous to the true nature of Buckingham/Nicks' relationship. Unfair on the listener. Unfair on Lindsey's wife/kids and unfair on Stevie. It's just ...fake.

[elle]

Originally Posted by secret love

all about Stevie, yet again. Stevie the woman who does not love him, and has felt rather indifferent about Lindsey for at least the past 15 years if not much longer. She counts him as a friend nothing more...

see i think that we came to a point which seem to happen a lot here - many SN fans seem to appreciate lyrics in her songs first, not so much music. maybe because english is my second language, what i look for in my music is just that - music! although Keith Urban once said that who cares whether one understands the lyrics, if the music is good that's all that's important! (when Fogerty teased him that Australians cannot possibly understand and love his song about baseball).

you love SN's words, but i don't know enough of them to judge, and most of them that people quote as profound and changing their lives seem prosaic to me.

LB is a musician first. Ken Caillat tells a story how during Rumours recording LB would come in with the music and no lyrics, write the sentence on the piece of paper, tear it down into words, and give each person in the studio one piece of paper to write the sentence around the word on that paper! than he'd put them all together and try to make a song out of it! i find that highly amusing and hilarious, while to you as a lyricist this may be highly offensive?

there is a discussion in a thread somewhere here how he's actually been a very interesting lyricist when he wants to throughout his career, even though he himself puts his ability as a lyricist down.

there are also discussions about different LB songs and buckets like political, social commentary, love, lust, anger etc songs somewhere here. nowhere did i see yet discussed that Red Rover is about Stevie but maybe i missed it?

i usually don't think that even the songs people seem to think LB or SN wrote about each other for sure really are about the other. and i also don't think that songs that LB did write about SN and people are interpreting as longing for lost love are really that. like in It Takes Time, when he says "it was all for you" i don't necessarily interpret that as for gaining her love... more like it was about their constant never ending professional competition and he was always trying to prove something to her.

so, although i personally do think the whole SN/LB love story / dialoguing that they keep still going in songs to this day is somewhat weird and annoying and they should move on (although you can probably find many Lindsey fans that love Stevie's recent songs written about him - because they are about him, while i find some of her recent lyrics sadly stuck somewhere in girl in her 20s instead of an adult woman who lived her life territory), i'm confused about where your apparent certainty about either of them wanting each other in a lover sense these days is coming from (you seem to be certain Lindsey wants to have that with Stevie while she doesn't with him for whatever reason? frankly, looking at their interactions on stage in front of me during this tour i don't think either of them wants that kind of relationship at this point. yes they flirt. Lindsey flirts with 20 other women or girls at the same time too ).

[elle]

Originally Posted by secret love

Lindsey does not seem to have the skill to write lyrics which are accessible to the average listener, whilst remaining opaque

Originally Posted by secret love

Too cliched and transparent and all about Stevie, yet again.

i looked for thread where we specifically discussed Red Rover lyrics (you know - if gods looked at the world they created and concluded it became too much of a mess so they decided to pull the plug). can't find that thread, but here are 2 threads where LB's political and social commentary songs were discussed a bit http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=49785 as well as a poll voting Murrow and RR as people's favorite songs in that category http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showth...ial+commentary - something that must look stunningly weird to you lol.

anyway, i didn't find any implications anywhere Red Rover is love song about Stevie. it seems to be neatly stashed into social commentary category, especially with the intro LB was giving it during SYW tour as well his Soundstage. so maybe he's too opaque of a lyricist for you after all?

EDIT: found very old discussion thread (that i've never seen before, from 2004!) on the meaning of Red Rover lyrics http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showth...ght=rover+gods

[Lindsfan]

Originally Posted by elle

but see, although i agree with you that tastes are different, and very much so in FM world with so many different songwriters (and i especially appreciate that you came over to LB board to discuss this!), i think some songs are objectively weak, while others are objectively strong, regardless of whether one likes them.

i can appreciate that Red Rover or Murrow are not everybody's cup of tea, that they may be too frantic, too rocking, too much guitar for someone's taste, or whatever problem you have with them. but objectively those are strong songs. so that's where i make a distinction. some songs may be weak, but you or i may love them regardless, for whatever reason (Silver Girls comes to mind . others may be strong, but you or i may dislike them.

I was thinking that very thing. I'm glad you pointed out the distinction. Red Rover and Murrow are hardly weak songs, just because someone doesn't like, get, or appreciate them.

Originally Posted by secret love

I actually am a lyricist. And I simply cannot say that the lyrics to Red Rover are objectively strong because I would be lying to myself.


Lindsey does not seem to have the skill to write lyrics which are accessible to the average listener, whilst remaining opaque

Objectively, I think they're great, and the links Elle pointed out, above, show that plenty of people not only like, but take different meaning from, those lyrics. Again, just because they're not for everyone, doesn't make them objectively bad.

I also think Lindsey's perfectly capable of writing accessible lyrics. I just think he prefers not to...that is, if he even thinks about it at all. He writes what he wants to write. He usually writes the music first, so of course, he's not walking around with lyrics running through his brain day and night, but when he sets down to finally add lyrics to his music, I have no doubt he can go in any direction he feels, and I very much doubt that the first thing that he thinks is gee, how can I make this accessible? Or, gee, I sure hope this appeals to the masses

Besides, lyrics can be accessible to a smaller audience, right?