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  #16  
Old 05-17-2008, 02:26 AM
michelej1 michelej1 is offline
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Originally Posted by strandinthewind View Post
But, she has it written down

Why are people so loathe to believe her, but they (not you per se) take his word as law?
Um, I doubt Stevie was referring to anything she had "written down" when she gave that interview. People aren't "loathe" to believe her, but it's hard to believe her when she contradicts herself every ten minutes and when what she says flies in the face of clear facts.

This is what Stevie said to the Los Angeles Times on June 14, 1987:

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Stevie Nicks, a Phoenix native who was raised in Southern California, tends to be the most passionate during interviews. Though heavily involved in her own solo career (which severely limited her ability to participate in the album), she feels a deep commitment to Fleetwood Mac and is quick to scold outsiders who suggest that the group had fallen apart in recent years.

"I think our real fans pretty much understand what is going on," she said. "It's the industry that gets confused. . . . All that talk about 'Fleetwood Mac is going to break up or has broken up.' I think they said a lot of crappy things that certainly could have helped it to break up . . . a lot of bad vibes. Sometimes I wish the industry would just go away and leave us alone. We haven't broken up yet. Our worst album ('Mirage') wasn't exactly a complete bomb. It still sold millions of records."
So, she has an interview where she gets feisty at the thought that the band had broken up. So, I know that she knew then (if she doesn't know now) that Lindsey hadn't left the band in 1982. What he did in 1982 was cut short the Mirage tour. He didn't leave the band.

As for taking Lindsey's word as law, I just don't see everything as polarized or adversarial as that. I don't think he's a saint and she's a sinner, in any category, but I won't think the reverse either.

I've heard Lindsey say that he only wrote one song for a movie and I know that's not true. He's prone to dementia at time. However, in this interview, your interpretation of Lindsey's "word" is so different from what I think he said, that I wouldn't even know how to take that as law. He talked about the band, being full of unique individuals in their own right, who come together. He didn't say that he had any kind of sovereign power and wasn't even talking about himself. It was a communal commendation he offered.

What I liked about this interview is you don't have to take one person's word over another. No reason to choose your side of the battleground. I mean, they were getting along when the interview was conducted and to me it seemed like a rather funny, domestic little exchange. I liked it's spousal quality, because there was even a loving familiarity to the bickering. And because they were comrades at the time, there was no one upmanship. They were both offering a fair and balanced assessment of the way they mutually push the other's buttons.

So, I really didn't see an opportunity for side-taking at all, until you did.

Michele
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Old 05-17-2008, 08:57 AM
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I am just stating that I think LB had no interest whatsoever with working with FM after Mirage. So, as I said, I think La Nicks was somewhat correct even though LB did not officially leave until after TITN was finished. I think the interviews at the time he left show that. He talks about reuniting with FM and morphing his solo stuff into TITN and then once he was back, the craziness was too much for him to do the tour. To me, that sounds like he came back to the band even though there had been no official parting of ways. Maybe burned out is a better phrase than left the band, which is why I said "La Nicks is mostly correct here."

As for the article you posted - of course FM is going to say that to sell the record I mean they can't very well say "we are so fukcing sick of each other we want to puke, but we want to market this record so we're going to pretend to be happy" can they

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. . . What I liked about this interview is . . . they were getting along when the interview was conducted and to me it seemed like a rather funny, domestic little exchange. I liked it's spousal quality, because there was even a loving familiarity to the bickering. And because they were comrades at the time, there was no one upmanship. They were both offering a fair and balanced assessment of the way they mutually push the other's buttons . . . .
I agree.
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  #18  
Old 05-17-2008, 11:58 AM
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I am just stating that I think LB had no interest whatsoever with working with FM after Mirage.
But that's not what's at issue. Stevie said Lindsey left the group in 1983. She was wrong about that. No big deal, really -- as Michele & Vivfox said, she sometimes gets her dates & circumstances & other details wrong. She spent an entire tour (a few years back) telling her fans she wrote RHIANNON in 1973, but she spent five years telling radio listeners in interviews that she wrote it in October 1974. You get older & you forget when you did this & that. No big deal. But when she's wrong, she's wrong. Don't dress up her mistaken data with interpretive play & recontextualization. (We used to do this in grad school: historicize & then rehistoricize in the Louis Montrose fashion.)

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So, as I said, I think La Nicks was somewhat correct even though LB did not officially leave until after TITN was finished. I think the interviews at the time he left show that. He talks about reuniting with FM and morphing his solo stuff into TITN and then once he was back, the craziness was too much for him to do the tour. To me, that sounds like he came back to the band even though there had been no official parting of ways.
But that was ALL OF THEM, strand. It wasn't as if the other four were waiting around for him, & in he walks. In fact, what happened is that Christine was the one who got the ball rolling by calling Dashut to produce her song for A FINE MESS, & Dashut in turn suggested bringing in Lindsey while Chris called Mick & John to play too. Those four members of the band were working on the Elvis Presley song in August 1985, & the following month (September 17, to be exact) they all met up backstage at the benefit Stevie was playing with Don Henley & Tom Petty at Universal Amphitheatre to plan a new Fleetwood Mac album.

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Maybe burned out is a better phrase than left the band, which is why I said "La Nicks is mostly correct here."
If Lindsey had said the same thing about Stevie in this period, he'd have been as "correct" as she was -- in other words, incorrect. Nobody in Fleetwood Mac in the 1980s left the band until August 1987. They were all emotionally distant from Fleetwood Mac in those days (that's not what our debate is about): Stevie was doing THE WILD HEART & touring, Lindsey was doing GO INSANE & producing elsewhere, John was at sea much of the time, Chris was doing CHRISTINE MCVIE & touring. Stevie forgot some of those trivial details.
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  #19  
Old 05-17-2008, 12:09 PM
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I am just stating that I think LB had no interest whatsoever with working with FM after Mirage. So, as I said, I think La Nicks was somewhat correct even though LB did not officially leave until after TITN was finished.
But that is not what you said initially. Stevie was talking about an exit, not about someone being disenchanted with the band. If all you'd said was that Lindsey was unhappy after Mirage, there would have been nothing to counter, because everyone knows too well that he was. He was unhappy after people were disappointed in Tusk -- which is not to say he left the band after Tusk.

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Originally Posted by strandinthewind View Post
I mean they can't very well say "we are so fukcing sick of each other we want to puke, but we want to market this record so we're going to pretend to be happy" can they
The issue you raised in saying Stevie was correct (and you didn't explain yesterday that you only meant you thought she meant "burnt out" and was correct about Lindsey being "burnt out" even though she never said "burnt out") was not whether they were happy. It was weather they were a broken up band after 1982. Not only does TITN prove that they weren't, but so do the band's comments at the time.

I'd posit that if they thought they were broken up, Mick would have replaced Lindsey after Mirage and not waited five years, letting all the tour money they could have reaped in that interim go to waste. As Stevie told the London Times, they lost "jillions" of dollars because Lindsey didn't want to record and tour. If the band thought that Lindsey had left, I think they would have moved earlier to replace him, rather than waiting for Christine to do an Elvis song that would bring them back together.

Michele
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  #20  
Old 05-17-2008, 12:15 PM
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^^^^ (for David's post)

I disagree in that I think CM and La Nicks were always wanting to go back to FM. Stevie certainly said this in interviews at that time. I can't recall LB ever saying that. I think LB did not want to go back to FM after the truncated Mirage tour. Again, he also discusses the TITN sessions as a return. To me, that sounds like he had all but left after Mirage. I also think he agreed to TITN because the sales of Go Insane were disappointing and FM could give him a needed boost, then he remembered why he "left" in the first place. Just my opinion though.

But, yes, based on what we know from the press, La Nicks was incorrect in saying he left the band in 1983. That is why I termed it as mostly correct - maybe effectively correct would have been a better phrase.
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  #21  
Old 05-17-2008, 12:26 PM
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But that is not what you said initially. Stevie was talking about an exit, not about someone being disenchanted with the band. If all you'd said was that Lindsey was unhappy after Mirage, there would have been nothing to counter, because everyone knows too well that he was. He was unhappy after people were disappointed in Tusk -- which is not to say he left the band after Tusk.
I said "So, for him to say he was totally committed to FM until he left in 1987 is not that accurate." Then, I clarified what I meant by that.

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. . . I'd posit that if they thought they were broken up, Mick would have replaced Lindsey after Mirage and not waited five years, letting all the tour money they could have reaped in that interim go to waste . . . .
I think they were giving him time - and likely giving themsleves a rest. I also think LB made no official announcement in 1983. I think they all got the hint though. I also think that if Mick and John had canned LB, La Nicks would have walked away and there would go a significant portion of the sales and notoriety. Again, I am not alone in this thought as the band chose to address the rumours that many thought they were broken up. I nfact, I was shocked when I read in Rolling Stone that they were recording again because I thought they would never do so again.

Again, I think that if Go Insane had been a big hit, he would not have rejoined, returned to, reconvened with, recorded with, etc., FM again. I think he has since Rumours resented working with a group that does not do exactly what he thinks they should production wise. Just my opinion though.
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  #22  
Old 05-17-2008, 12:51 PM
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Again, I am not alone in this thought as the band chose to address the rumours that many thought they were broken up.
But there were no rumors that they had broken up in 1983. The rumors only arose over time, because there had been a 5 year lapse between records. So yes, by the time 1987 rolled around people were saying, "Wow, you were gone so long, we assumed you had broken up." But there were no rumors of an actual break up, official or unofficial, just prolonged inactivity.

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  #23  
Old 05-17-2008, 01:03 PM
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But there were no rumors that they had broken up in 1983. The rumors only arose over time, because there had been a 5 year lapse between records. So yes, by the time 1987 rolled around people were saying, "Wow, you were gone so long, we assumed you had broken up." But there were no rumors of an actual break up, official or unofficial, just prolonged inactivity.

Michele
I remember rumours in 1983 after The Mirage tour, which was only 18 American cities, a tiny amount when compared to the far larger prior four tours. I always thought the tour was shortened because they were not all that happy being together again. But, who knows.

Put it this way, the TITN album was couched in terms of reuniting

You really don't think that LB had all but unofficially walked away from FM after the Mirage tour? To me, it's obvious - though I readily admit he publicly did not officially leave the band until 1987. I think this is why Stevie went ful steam ahead in the solo market. I think she thought that there was no use waiting for FM and IMO LB to get back together and in the studio. And, she realy did not need them anymore as a vehicle to release her songs, though she remaind loyal to them. Would any of us have gone back to a hostile work environment when we did not need to? So, I think she went back out of loyalty. Others may disagree, but that is my opinion.

As an aside, what if La Nicks' comment about 1983 was a slip and indeed was a rare glimpse into what really went on in 1983.

On edit -- was FM under any kind of record deal in the 80's that bound them to produce a certain number of records?
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  #24  
Old 05-17-2008, 01:46 PM
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On edit -- was FM under any kind of record deal in the 80's that bound them to produce a certain number of records?
Yes, I believe they were. I don't think the contract had a duration, but I think it called for another album from them. At least, I think Stevie said that.

The thing is, Tango was not just a cursory appearance by Lindsey, like you could say Chain was. He was intricately involved in every aspect of Tango, production, songwriting, videos, press. To say that he was, indeed, in a band that he was working diligently with throughout the Tango process, is not just lipservice. It can't be said he had "all but left" the band and he just made it "official" in 1987. His integral band involvement did not stop until the album was complete, the publicity for it was done and he actually left. From 1982-1987 he wasn't out of the band any more than anyone else was out of it. The whole band was on hold.

As for your comment that Stevie did not need the band, had a successful solo career and did not have to come back, yeah maybe. But that has nothing to do with whether Lindsey left the band. It sounds like arguments you could make explaining why Stevie left the band from 1982-1987, but I don't think she left it either.

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Old 05-17-2008, 03:03 PM
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. . . The thing is, Tango was not just a cursory appearance by Lindsey, like you could say Chain was. He was intricately involved in every aspect of Tango, production, songwriting, videos, press. To say that he was, indeed, in a band that he was working diligently with throughout the Tango process, is not just lipservice. It can't be said he had "all but left" the band and he just made it "official" in 1987. His integral band involvement did not stop until the album was complete, the publicity for it was done and he actually left. From 1982-1987 he wasn't out of the band any more than anyone else was out of it. The whole band was on hold.
Oh - TITN is very LB. I did not say it was not or that he did a half effort. I am saying that I do not think LB wanted to go back to FM after Mirage. But, he did (IMO because Go Insane sold poorly) and his solo record, which he wanted to sell well, became TITN, which did sell well and the pretty much all LB Big Love (a no. 5 hit) was a huge part of that. Interestingly, would Big Love have sold as well without the Stevie sounding love grunts - who can say? I am not in any way saying FM had officially broken up or that LB had officially and/or publicly left. I am saying I think they were ready to go to work and he was putting them off for awhile after Mirage. I think LB just did not want to go back, but in the end did and he certainly put a great deal of effort into TITN. Put it this way, if LB had not morphed the solo record into TITN - what would the status of FM have been? I suggest it would have been over until at least 1990. While that is not an official break up, it is an effective one, which is all I am asserting.


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As for your comment that Stevie did not need the band, had a successful solo career and did not have to come back, yeah maybe. But that has nothing to do with whether Lindsey left the band. It sounds like arguments you could make explaining why Stevie left the band from 1982-1987, but I don't think she left it either.
I think it is relevant in that she was moving full steam ahead with a sort of "I am ready, willing, and able and if FM is never going to make up its mind (read LB IMO) to record again, then I am not waiting" attitude. I think she never viewed herself as the hold out. Just speculation, but the playing of events does suggest it. Another difference is La Nicks never was portrayed in the press and by her own words as ever begrudgingly going back to FM, save for perhaps now. It is usually the opposite.

Actually, now is a similar situation to the 1983-87 era. Is FM currently broken up? Will we get another record from them? Only they know I supose.
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Old 05-17-2008, 07:00 PM
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Oh - TITN is very LB. I did not say it was not or that he did a half effort. I am saying that I do not think LB wanted to go back to FM after Mirage. But, he did (IMO because Go Insane sold poorly) and his solo record, which he wanted to sell well, became TITN, which did sell well and the pretty much all LB Big Love (a no. 5 hit) was a huge part of that.
Yes, I know that's what you're saying, now. You are always saying that. I just don't know why you brought Lindsey and Stevie's discussion as to whether or not he had officially left the band in 1982 -- and whether she was correct in claiming that he had -- back to that favorite point of yours.

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Old 05-17-2008, 07:32 PM
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I remember rumours in 1983 after The Mirage tour, which was only 18 American cities, a tiny amount when compared to the far larger prior four tours.
You remember nothing of the sort, strandford. There was no rumor that the band had split in 1983.

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I always thought the tour was shortened because they were not all that happy being together again.
I'm going to hit you. How did you know at the time that the tour was shortened? At the time (& I followed the tour very closely by attending, reading news & staying in constant touch with the fan network), I just thought it was a short tour. (Actually, to be a bit more brutally honest, it was STEVIE who was periodically written about & talked about as the cause of Fleetwood Mac's short tour & periods of inactivity -- see the Record article in 1982 by David Gans.)

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Put it this way, the TITN album was couched in terms of reuniting
You're being disingenuous (the way you were with "sovereign). "Reuniting" can mean "We broke up but now we're reuniting" -- like VAN HALEN in 2007 -- & it can mean "We haven't done anything for a long time & now we're working on something new." The latter is what applies to the Fleetwood Mac situation in 1986.

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You really don't think that LB had all but unofficially walked away from FM after the Mirage tour?
No, I don't! At least not in the all-or-nothing terms you frame it in. It's a really myopic view of yours that Lindsey walked away in 1983. They ALL walked away -- the band went into one of its lengthy periods of inactivity. The band did not break up, & none of its members left. As has been said a million times, by people inside & outside the band, things were put ON HOLD.

What would Lindsey have been walking away from, incidentally? Inactivity?

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To me, it's obvious - though I readily admit he publicly did not officially leave the band until 1987.
Gee, are you sure you want to go out on a limb like that?

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I think this is why Stevie went ful steam ahead in the solo market. I think she thought that there was no use waiting for FM and IMO LB to get back together and in the studio.
Well, you've neatly wrapped that sucker right up.

"Lindsey refuses to come back & work with Fleetwood Mac, so I'm gonna have a solo career! Muaahahahahaaahaaa!!"
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Old 05-17-2008, 08:14 PM
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Yes, I know that's what you're saying, now. You are always saying that. I just don't know why you brought Lindsey and Stevie's discussion as to whether or not he had officially left the band in 1982 -- and whether she was correct in claiming that he had -- back to that favorite point of yours.

Michele
I was making the point that I thought that though La Nicks was techinically incorrect, she was effectively correct because I think LB for all practicle purposes left in 1983, only to be roped in to TITN.
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Old 05-17-2008, 08:28 PM
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You remember nothing of the sort, strandford. There was no rumor that the band had split in 1983 . . . .
So what exactly were La Nicks and CM disputing in those articles, as well as others like this one from Hit Parader (1983) - where she is cagey about it

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Despite her extraordinary success as a solo artist, Nicks doesn't foresee a breakup of Fleetwood Mac. "It'll all just depend on how understanding everybody is to everyone else's needs," she said. "If everyone is thoughtful, understanding, sweet and kind, then the band could go on forever. If everyone isn't, then that could cause a big problem." Nicks feels that fellow bandmembers Christine McVie, Lindsey Buckingham and Mick Fleetwood will also follow up their initial solo efforts, but she adds that the work apart from the group is therapeutic . . . .
She isn't exactly saying FM staying together is a sure thing, which added to the rumours
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Old 05-17-2008, 09:37 PM
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What I liked about this interview is you don't have to take one person's word over another. No reason to choose your side of the battleground. I mean, they were getting along when the interview was conducted and to me it seemed like a rather funny, domestic little exchange. I liked it's spousal quality, because there was even a loving familiarity to the bickering. And because they were comrades at the time, there was no one upmanship. They were both offering a fair and balanced assessment of the way they mutually push the other's buttons.


Michele
Thanks for posting the article. I enjoyed reading their exchange. Very normal with no unnecessary drama...wish their fans could get to that place as well...they seem very comfortable with each other, buttons and all...
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