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  #16  
Old 12-09-2008, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by snoot View Post

Right, and like the young Kirwan was going to step all over Green's toes with reckless abandon as he saw fit.
I think I read this from the liner notes from either "The Vaudville Years" or "Showbiz Blues". When Peter Green was convinced to come back to replace Spencer on the US winter '71 tour, PG set ground rules. He was not to play any solos, or sing. Sometime during that tour, DK threw a beer bottle aimed at PG's head in frustration. I've also read that on some shows during that tour all they did was a long jam based on "Black Magic Woman". It was at one of those shows Kirwan threw the bottle because he couldn't keep up with Green.

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As for surpassing Green, we may be sort of blurring aspects of larger FM themes here. I'm mostly talking about their overall contributions towards the end, not merely their guitar prowess. On both fronts though, the two were beginning to run head and head, so much so that Green was starting to feel a bit challenged, even threatened at times, by the upstart kid he originally freely encouraged. To what extent this all played out only those on the scene truly know. Maybe Jeremy has a few recollections he may choose to add.


I think you live in SoCal Fleetwood Mac world.
Since the last FM single with Green was "The Green Manalishi" (a PG song), I don't think he was challenged by any of Kirwan's songs. You're creating a rivalry that Green was not on this planet to recognize. He was trying to reach the fourth dimension while the rest of the band wanted to be rich. Yes, please Mr. Spencer respond. In fact, Green said later that he thought "Dragonfly" was Kirwan's best song with the band.

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Right, one which I am currently participating on. And once again IMO, he was not. Now you allow dissension here, right?
OK just for fun, who do you think is? If his initials are R. B., I'll say ok. Otherwise, it's a debate.

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I know the story too, well, as best we can stitch it together. "Young Eyes" could also be seen as endearing, even if DK didn't like it. As for the drinking aspect, what do you think most young musicians - especially at that ripe young age - were doing back then but drinking and/or smoking, often excessively. Danny was no different! His drinking got worse as time went on. Gee, where have we seen THAT before? Peter, in the same vein, was increasingly indulging in various drugs, only difference being his candle burned out much quicker with the heavier stuff (bouts of schizophrenia + depression aside).
It's all how you handle your booze. By 1972, nobody in the band was speaking to him.


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He also overdid it, with a personality that lent itself towards that kind of indulgence. How is it you can justify his drug peccadilloes - or at least size them up for what they're worth - but then cut Kirwan no similar slack with his booze and personality shortcomings? Is it because one smiled as he went down, while the other growled? Or is it the love of pure blues that causes such blind spots?

Maybe I should ask the same question, why are you debating Green's impact on the band? Danny Kirwan was not an original member. He did not steal any thunder from Green's talents as Green was battling personal demons. No one else on this board has been so contentious about this period. I can't believe I'm debating this because I like Kirwan's work very much. He's the reason I own Future Games, and Bare Trees.

Last edited by slipkid; 12-09-2008 at 12:09 PM..
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  #17  
Old 12-09-2008, 06:11 PM
snoot snoot is offline
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I've also read that on some shows during that tour all they did was a long jam based on "Black Magic Woman". It was at one of those shows Kirwan threw the bottle because he couldn't keep up with Green.
Wouldn't you have thrown a bottle at his head if that was all he insisted on playing? And "keep up with him"? Green was going mad at that point! It was no doubt more out of frustration, like you might be tempted to do when your trusty turntable keeps skipping on a record. Also, you have no idea of all the details of why just such an incident erupted, or what was on Kirwan's mind for that matter, unless you were there. And even then, you may not have known all the particulars! Green could be quite frustrating to be around at that time, probably more than young Kirwan. Just look at the ground rules he insisted on setting during the end of that tour! WTF. Welch must have come into the band like a breath of fresh air.

You're creating a rivalry that Green was not on this planet to recognize.

He was beginning to feel a bit threatened by Danny, sorry you never picked up on the full story. He was also starting to lose his marbles. That's just a fact, and this was during his tenure with the Mac, not after. Sorry to burst any precious bubbles here, but this isn't breaking news. I'm certainly not gloss-coating anything either. And if you couldn't see or appreciate Kirwan's stunning rise, tough. I know Peter certainly did.

OK just for fun, who do you think is? If his initials are R. B., I'll say ok. Otherwise, it's a debate.

Good question, but honestly there are too many to consider. I could never pick a singular figure, just like I wouldn't be able to on the American side. A lot of great gun slingers out there, then and now, and you named some of the better ones earlier. So ask yourself, was Bach greater than Beethoven, or Wagner for that matter? Did Rembrandt trump Dürer? Did Segovia meet his match in Williams or Parkening, et al? You know how it goes on anything referencing music or the arts. It's all rather subjective in the end. Just look at the joke that Rolling Stone magazine is on the subject, with their "rankings". Pffft. Btw Roy is good, but not the best.

It's all how you handle your booze. By 1972, nobody in the band was speaking to him.

It was only towards the very end that he fully alienated the fold, but I'll freely concede he was getting increasingly difficult to work with as time went on (shades of his mentor, Herr Green, at the end, no?). Mick never wanted to cut him, but Welch insisted -- and for understandable reasons by that point. The others signed on without reluctance, and Mick dished up his walking papers. And you're right - it's all how you handle your booze ... or, er, drugs. Touché.

Maybe I should ask the same question, why are you debating Green's impact on the band?

I haven't, you're just choosing to view it that way.

Danny Kirwan was not an original member.

Neither was John McVie, or Christine, or Bob Welch , or Buckingham & Nicks. So what's your point in bringing that up? Denny Laine first led the Moody Blues. Does that mean he trumps his successor, Justin Hayward, and his immense contributions?

He did not steal any thunder from Green's talents as Green was battling personal demons.

Good to see you recognize they both were battling personal demons, and by the end of their respective tenures in the band, BIG TIME. Go back to what I spoke of earlier, the eerie analogies. Also PG was not at the height of his guitar powers when he left the group. He was clearly beginning to lose his mind by that point, and everyone around him knew it and were hoping and praying for a turnaround.

No one else on this board has been so contentious about this period.

Contentious, in trying to give DK his chops? In stating he was rising as Green was slipping at the end? I thought that was all too apparent. But if you feel I ever said Kirwan bested Green, you're wrong. Never said it, or feel it. They were simply a great duo that fueled each other to greater artistic heights, esp as time went on. Then Play On is proof enough of that. I would have LOVED to see a follow-up to that project, as I suspect you would have!

Sadly neither of them reached their full potential, either as a tandem or as soloists. Green's story was simply more abrupt, and thus more acute. But even through TPO, you can catch glimpses of those demons closing in on him, beyond the awesome - stunning really - project he engineered. It was his crowning achievement.

I can't believe I'm debating this because I like Kirwan's work very much. He's the reason I own Future Games, and Bare Trees.

You're far more critical of DK, and forgiving of PG. Much as you feel I am, the other way around. You really need to replace that DK avatar with a PG one. Good discussion though.

Last edited by snoot; 12-09-2008 at 06:33 PM..
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  #18  
Old 12-10-2008, 01:06 AM
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He was beginning to feel a bit threatened by Danny, sorry you never picked up on the full story. He was also starting to lose his marbles. That's just a fact, and this was during his tenure with the Mac, not after. Sorry to burst any precious bubbles here, but this isn't breaking news. I'm certainly not gloss-coating anything either. And if you couldn't see or appreciate Kirwan's stunning rise, tough. I know Peter certainly did.

You're related to him in some way, aren't you? "If you couldn't see or appreciate...tough"!?!? How many times do I have to say how great a songwriter Kirwan was?? I was only pointing out Kirwan's skills as a guitarist weren't on Green's level. From what I've read (which I take as fact), Green's biggest problem was that he was sick of being a celebrity. The drugs only made it worse.
I can see your point if Green left FM, and became a successful solo artist (ala Clapton), but that wasn't the case. Danny Kirwan didn't drive Peter Green into a life of menial jobs, and mental institutions.




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You're far more critical of DK, and forgiving of PG. Much as you feel I am, the other way around. You really need to replace that DK avatar with a PG one. Good discussion though.

You said it, this started with your post about a blog on Peter Green complaining that Danny Kirwan didn't get enough credit. Since you weren't going to point out Kirwan's shortcomings, someone needed to. I don't need to be lectured about the sad end of this era, I think I know enough. Now if Jeremy Spencer cares to correct me, I will take his word as gospel. Aside from that, yes this has been a great discussion. You have brought life back to this board, I'll say that.

Last edited by slipkid; 12-10-2008 at 01:25 AM..
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  #19  
Old 12-10-2008, 03:51 AM
snoot snoot is offline
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You're related to him in some way, aren't you?
lol no, no, trust me, I'm not. Short of perhaps in a "kindred spirits" way. Danny has always held a special soft spot for me, I suppose because he has forever been relegated to taking up ground in Green's shadow - and like Peter, had a rather sad demise. Pete's still a legend to a legion of fans. What's Danny got?

Also I was a pretty early fan of the band, yes back when most were saying "Fleetwood Who?" [and if you go back far enough you know this was not merely a humorous cliché once upon a time]. It wasn't always easy watching the band go thru its growing pains. I was as blown away as anyone else when they hit the stratosphere with Buckingham & Nicks, after watching Bob Welch throw in the towel. I also hated to see Bob Weston go, another great Mac axe. But when I first heard Over My Head all over the radio waves in late '75, I knew something big was in the air. Then came Rhiannon, and Say You Love Me, and the third wave was on!

"If you couldn't see or appreciate...tough"!?!? How many times do I have to say how great a songwriter Kirwan was?? I was only pointing out Kirwan's skills as a guitarist weren't on Green's level.

And I keep saying WRONG WRONG WRONG. Why ? Because 1) On the songwriting front, they had become near equals. Green's light shone a bit brighter mostly because his hand at it started earlier, and his style was more unconventional and gripping (again, like the Lennon to McCartney analogy I tried to draw, in a somewhat diminished way). But any way you look at it, Kirwan was quickly catching up. And 2) On the guitar playing front, Kirwan was neck and neck with Green in the end, though you refuse to have it.

Now I'm gonna let you in on a little secret here: the majority of those great licks you hear on Then Play On were Danny's, not Pete's. The only reason I give Green the "ace's nod" on that project is because he brought such soulful compositions to the table, his best ever (though he produced plenty of memorable stuff earlier). But as I keep stating, by that point it is really difficult to separate the two, in both arenas! It would have been interesting to think of what TPO 2 might have sounded like!

From what I've read (which I take as fact), Green's biggest problem was that he was sick of being a celebrity. The drugs only made it worse.

That was a big part of it for sure. Those mind-blowing drug indulgences were unfortunately making him increasingly neurotic. What you probably don't fully appreciate is that he was flipping the band out too. It was not a happy or harmonious unit by 1970, trust me. Those nutty robes he donned, the crucifix, the radical change of appearance, the mindless philanthropy he was pushing when the group wasn't even living luxurious lives as it was! He was turning off the world, and dropping out big time. In fact, as we came to see, to a point of no return. It was reminiscent of one * Jim Morrison* roughly a year later!

How much Peter was a victim of others (the doping incident), or himself and his heady appetite for riding high, or the world at large as it was then framed in his mind, is anyone's guess. But please remember, it was he who went south by 1970, and not Danny. All he left Danny and the others was basically high and dry - a flock without it's shepherd.

I can see your point if Green left FM, and became a successful solo artist (ala Clapton), but that wasn't the case. Danny Kirwan didn't drive Peter Green into a life of menial jobs, and mental institutions.

Well you're losing me here now. I have never stated or implied Danny drove Peter over the edge if that's what you mean. Not in any way. But did Kirwan represent one more "threat" of sorts to Green's increasingly insecure world? Yes, in the end anyway. He could see his young colleague rising to the occasion where he was beginning to stall and falter, and before long, irreparably so. And yet paradoxically, he was pretty much at the height of his artistic powers when the self-destruction set in! Reality was slipping from his grasp rapidly, and I'm sure he knew it, or at least sensed it. With it went his cutting edge prowess, and the requisite energy to drive himself forward.

You said it, this started with your post about a blog on Peter Green, complaining that Danny Kirwan didn't get enough credit.

Which he still doesn't, neither for TPO, nor from a total FM perspective. *Except* for those who know the more complete story.

Since you weren't going to point out Kirwan's shortcomings, someone needed to.

Please, I have never glossed over Danny's shortcomings with anything I've presented here. Go back and read what I wrote. Besides, the main thrust of this discussion has mostly been centered around PG, starting with that article presented by the OP. You're just more sensitive to anything I spell out regarding your guitar hero, one we both admire (and yes, I know you appreciate Kirwan too, but in a sort of deprecating, "in the shadow of Greenie" way. At least that's how I see it).

I don't need to be lectured about the sad end of this era, I think I know enough.

No lectures here. I'm just putting the cards on the table as non-selectively as I can, and filling in certain things you may not be familiar with. No one - not you, not me, not even Jeremy - can claim to know the whole story.

Now if Jeremy Spencer cares to correct me, I will take his word as gospel.

Well Jeremy could certainly answer a lot of questions, so could Bob Welch who is seen here at times. But let's keep in mind even Jeremy wasn't around that much during the TPO sessions -- IIRC he was off making his own solo project tapes. And of course Bob had yet to arrive on the scene, though I'm sure he heard lots of stories about the early period while he was a member of the band. John McVie would be great to hear from too, as he is always rather candid in his interviews when he does choose to speak out. Whether any of them would be willing to open up too much on this subject I can't say.

Aside from that, yes this has been a great discussion. You have brought life back to this board, I'll say that.

You're good too, mostly cuz you fight back and don't mind sparring a bit. That's a compliment btw.

And yes you said it, from lazy, hazy, crazy SoCal.

Circling the wagons, just in case. Jb

Last edited by snoot; 12-10-2008 at 03:58 AM..
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  #20  
Old 12-10-2008, 06:25 AM
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Snoot, sounds like you were around the band or saw them say, pre 1972.
Would be cool to hear. Otherwise your "info "comes from books, right?

I just think it's useless to compare Danny and Peter. They were both amazing, although I agree that Danny was more limited. As for "Then Play on", Danny plays lead on his songs and "Oh well", but that's it, right? It easy to differentiate between to the two, just listen to the vibrato.
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Old 12-10-2008, 02:56 PM
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Snoot, I think we're just going in circles with no end, so I'll just leave it where it stands. I maybe too old now to have a guitar hero, but I certainly had a drum hero in Bill Bruford as a teenager.

As to the neck and neck guitar front, there is a B.B. King cover on Youtube from New Orleans 1/3o or 31/70 (I call that near the end) that has a four minute Peter Green solo. I don't want to post it to continue this thread, but I can pretty much say without question that Danny Kirwan could not duplicate that solo. This isn't an insult, many other guitarists couldn't do it either. He may have been able to pick the notes, but not with the soul, passion, and keen sense of dynamics that you hear coming from Green's hands. That solo I feel is the greatest and simplest example as to why PG is so loved by other guitarists, professional and amateur alike.


I guess I'm making up for lost time with a band that I didn't discover the first time around, at least the pre '75 version. Even I have a copy of 1988's FM's Greatest Hits that is exclusively '75-'88. It hasn't been played in eons, but maybe I'll pull it out soon.

I bought "Perfect Days" about three weeks ago, which has the same cover as "Madison Blues", but with only half the songs (I thought it was Madison Blues ). It's certainly is interesting to hear alternate versions of the Kiln House tunes with some unreleased material thrown in.

Last edited by slipkid; 12-10-2008 at 03:47 PM..
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  #22  
Old 12-10-2008, 07:00 PM
snoot snoot is offline
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Snoot, sounds like you were around the band or saw them say, pre 1972. Would be cool to hear. Otherwise your "info "comes from books, right?
Never read any book on the band or the musicians within. Plenty of interviews and assorted articles along the way though, trust me on that. Plus I was fortunate to see a a good slice of the band in its formative, you know pre-B&N, years. There was a day when youngins used to sit around and really talk about musical bands and their personnel, swap stories and albums + tapes, compare the latest minutiae, and really align with their musical heroes. Imagine that! Now its all a flash bam boom MTV-colored world. Big difference as I see it. Sadly, the digital conversion brought certain downsides with it. Sometimes you don't even get those great liner or sleeve notes so as to learn more!

I just think it's useless to compare Danny and Peter. They were both amazing, although I agree that Danny was more limited. As for "Then Play on", Danny plays lead on his songs and "Oh well", but that's it, right? It easy to differentiate between to the two, just listen to the vibrato.

Agreed, and yes both were amazing. Peter cut such a blaze early on that even Mayall was genuinely impressed - and that says a lot. John McVie felt he might even ace Clapton in time, and this he proclaimed while he was still a Bluesbreaker! And when someone of the stature of BB King says Green was the only guitar picker who ever made him sweat, what more need be said? Peter remains in the crème de la crème category of modern axe slingers. His compositions were also out of this world: Oh Well, Albatross, Black Magic Woman, Love That Burns, Underway, Green Manalishi, Show Biz Blues ... you could go on and on. And all over but a two year period.

Peter gave Danny free reign during the TPO sessions. Truth was, he was relying on him to carry much of the weight. The majority of what you hear is Kirwan. But Peter blazed up a storm on it too, so there is no shortage of his riffs and licks either. As I said earlier, the blurring was greater than ever. The greatest crime was that we never saw the follow-up to it in proper form. Danny also did some nice tradeoffs with Jeremy on Kiln House. There's some tight interplay there when you really put your ear to it. The songs may not have been as earth shattering, as they weren't dealt from the utter depths of despair, but Spencer and Kirwan certainly made the most of that transitional hand they were dealt with their instruments (both stringed and vocal).
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Old 12-10-2008, 07:37 PM
snoot snoot is offline
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Snoot, I think we're just going in circles with no end, so I'll just leave it where it stands. I maybe too old now to have a guitar hero, but I certainly had a drum hero in Bill Bruford as a teenager.
Sometimes you have to circle about a bit to get what need be said out. It makes for good discussion too, assuming things don't overheat, or get too personal. If it generates further discussion or gets people thinking, it's worth the effort. Afterall, that's what we're here for primarily, right? I think we all have musical heroes, both players and songsmiths. If not, we probably wouldn't be chatting on a forum like this right now. Even the biggest musicians have theirs. Green used to adore Hank Marvin of the Shadows, as you no doubt know.

As for BB, that man could tap the sticks with the best of 'em. Not a bad choice at all. Some interesting stuff he did with King Crimson and Patrick Moraz later on too.

As to the neck and neck guitar front, there is a B.B. King cover on Youtube from New Orleans 1/3o or 31/70 (I call that near the end) that has a four minute Peter Green solo. I don't want to post it to continue this thread, but I can pretty much say without question that Danny Kirwan could not duplicate that solo. This isn't an insult, many other guitarists couldn't do it either. He may have been able to pick the notes, but not with the soul, passion, and keen sense of dynamics that you hear coming from Green's hands. That solo I feel is the greatest and simplest example as to why PG is so loved by other guitarists, professional and amateur alike.

Good point you make. In the pure soul and emotive front, Peter was hard to top. When he let loose and ripped it up, dust was sure to fly. Danny had a better sense of rhythm than Pete though, and stuck to structure more. They could both improv masterfully, but Green aimed for the clouds while Danny kept his feet more planted. That's why the two worked so well together. They had somewhat contrasting styles, but could also mimic eachother if and as needed, and always find the requisite common ground. You never knew what you were gonna get when the two cut loose. Call it part of the magic.

If only Spencer had devoted himself more toward ramping things up back then. He had all the potential in the world, but never could get his mind and heart in sync with Peter's overall vision. That's why Danny took on such a large role so quickly. He was a better, more enthusiastic learner, and he brought in the kind of groove and bounce Peter was looking for. Danny may have brought the rock/pop sensibilities to the band, but that was exactly what Peter wanted - and had been looking for. For that reason, it was just as much Green as Kirwan that shifted the band from "purer" blues, never forget that. If PG didn't want that turn of direction, it wouldn't have happened! That wasn't tolerance, it was synthesis. Purposeful synthesis.

I guess I'm making up for lost time with a band that I didn't discover the first time around, at least the pre '75 version. Even I have a copy of 1988's FM's Greatest Hits that is exclusively '75-'88. It hasn't been played in eons, but maybe I'll pull it out soon.

Well you've made up for lost time then, that's for sure. If only more would take the exploratory plunge and immerse a little, they'd be surprised at what they had been missing out on! I am always floored by Lindsey and what he brings, both with his instrument and on the production side. What a wiz! Then you've got Stevie with all her charms. But to overlook Green at his height, or Kirwan's creative riffing with Greenie and Spencer and Welch, or what Bob did so smoothly with Weston and then on his own, is to miss the bigger picture. And if that weren't enough, you have Christy's great ditties and vocal prowess. Her backing vocals rival her lead ones, starting with Kiln House!! THAT is the wonder of Fleetwood Mac. Pity the post-75ers who don't realize what they're missing out on!

Now I realize this section is mostly for axe bangers and blues enthusiasts, Greenmeisters as it were (and that's cool since that's where it all started), but as we all know, FM was so much more than that. The diversity of their sound - all overlapping mind you, and born from an undiluted blues-rock core - is hard to top in rock n roll annuls.

I bought "Perfect Days" about three weeks ago, which has the same cover as "Madison Blues", but with only half the songs (I thought it was Madison Blues ). It's certainly is interesting to hear alternate versions of the Kiln House tunes with some unreleased material thrown in.

Ain't it the truth. Those sessions were better than many give credit to. A pretty heady accomplishment considering the band was fighting off the shellshock of losing their undisputed leader. It was touch and go as to whether they were going to just call it quits back then. Jeremy flat out rocks on that production, he was never more front and center. His guitar work with Danny was really nice too during those sessions. And then you had CM adding some cherry and timely backing vocals, and a few tickles on the keys. That album should be in every true Macsters crib. And it is not as far a throw from TPO as many would have you believe, if you listen to it closely. It was just a milder, a not so obvious, form of musical angst, cut from a different cloth. Not as gripping as TPO of course (Peter's pain was hard to match), but certainly a bit smoother around the edges. And the shift - not reinvention - continued.
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Old 12-10-2008, 08:01 PM
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Oh and as for rhythmic muscle, I don't know if there's a better, more dependable tandem in the biz than Mick and John. It was from that backbone that the others found their footing. They are certainly in the elite of the elite category in that regard, and are all too often overlooked in Mac discussions.

They also possibly top the all-time list as uber scoutmasters, rivalling Mayall himself. DAYUM
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Old 12-10-2008, 10:18 PM
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Oh and as for rhythmic muscle, I don't know if there's a better, more dependable tandem in the biz than Mick and John. It was from that backbone that the others found their footing. They are certainly in the elite of the elite category in that regard, and are all too often overlooked in Mac discussions.

They also possibly top the all-time list as uber scoutmasters, rivalling Mayall himself. DAYUM
They are certainly in the top three. Along with John Entwistle/Keith Moon '69-'73, and John Paul Jones/John Bonham. HM: Noel Redding/Mitch Mitchell. I know I've left off Bruce/Baker, but I always thought Baker played with ham hands. Of the above, McVie and Fleetwood were the best time keepers.

Ok, I swear this is my last post to this thread!

Last edited by slipkid; 12-11-2008 at 12:55 AM..
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Old 12-11-2008, 11:40 AM
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Okay, I have been following this thread and, I must say, been enjoying it immensely. After all, FM is one of my favorite subjects and all my friends (and my wife) are tired of hearing me talk about it. Just thought I would put in my 2 cents. If someone ever asks me who my favorite guitarist is I can never answer because in so many ways PG and DK are two sides of the same coin; I liked their work apart but thought that when they were together they took music to the most amazing heights. Sort of mixing my metaphor a little but when asked my favorite record album I can never choose between Bare Trees or Future games; always considered them the best double album ever and always thought that Bare Trees was more of an extension of the same thought that Future Games started.

In the last few years I think my FM library has doubled due to all the wonderful re-releases, new finds and bootlegs. For my money, Shrine'69 showcases early FM with some brilliant music and really demonstrates the heights to which DK and PG could take guitar playing. I swear that sometimes the sustain, tone and vibrato that Danny brings on Something Inside of Me can just bring me to my knees. And Peter's solo on Need Your Love So Bad does the same thing. Holy Cow! And really, Jeremy really shines on that album as well.

Anyway, I think that intelligently presented and thoughtful discussions like this one are really stimulating. They go beyond the meaningless discussions like who is the "best" guitar player ever. It comes down, so much, to personal choice and, for me, just where my head is at that particular moment. I have a friend that is always trying to get me started on a "who is better, Beatles or Rolling Stones" kind of discussion and I won't bite (seems like something two 15 year-olds would get into and 60 isn't that far away for me now). I would much rather participate in a discussion like this thread.

Thanks guys.
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Old 12-11-2008, 01:32 PM
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[QUOTE=snoot;787461]WRONG! Ever hear of Bob Welch?

I just don't understand how anyone can even think of Welch as coming even close to Green, Kirwin, or Buckingham. I just don't see the same level of creativity in playing, or in songwriting.

I guess it's just me, but I've never understood the "Welch love". But I love Green, Kirwin, and Buckingham.
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Old 12-11-2008, 07:27 PM
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[QUOTE=seekerj;787914]
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Originally Posted by snoot View Post
WRONG! Ever hear of Bob Welch?

I just don't understand how anyone can even think of Welch as coming even close to Green, Kirwin, or Buckingham. I just don't see the same level of creativity in playing, or in songwriting.

I guess it's just me, but I've never understood the "Welch love". But I love Green, Kirwin, and Buckingham.
It's Kirwan
I don't understand why so many people who seemingly adore the musician don't even know how his name is spelled. This goes to biographists as well.
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  #29  
Old 12-11-2008, 07:32 PM
snoot snoot is offline
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Originally Posted by stubbie7 View Post
Okay, I have been following this thread and, I must say, been enjoying it immensely. After all, FM is one of my favorite subjects and all my friends (and my wife) are tired of hearing me talk about it. Just thought I would put in my 2 cents. If someone ever asks me who my favorite guitarist is I can never answer because in so many ways PG and DK are two sides of the same coin; I liked their work apart but thought that when they were together they took music to the most amazing heights. Sort of mixing my metaphor a little but when asked my favorite record album I can never choose between Bare Trees or Future games; always considered them the best double album ever and always thought that Bare Trees was more of an extension of the same thought that Future Games started.
Twin bookends for sure. They almost sound like continuous or extended sessions. Kirwan really got on well with Welch musically when it came to layering their tunes. But if you go back to the entire run of releases back then, starting with English Rose, then Then Play On, Kiln House, followed by those bookends, and Penguin + Mystery To Me (another twin set really, though the Walker tracks clearly disrupt the flow on the former), you can really see how the Mac have constantly been shifting their sound, and not trying to start from scratch each go-round. In fact, the degree of overlaps are fairly consistent through each project once you critically size them up.

More pure blues rock on ER, a touch more straight up style R&R fused into TPO, then a slight 50's era retro homage - cool as hell IMO - added to Kiln House (mostly due to Jeremy getting his shot at a more front and center spot), then more straight up R&R on FG and BT (with but a hint of funk at times), and finally a touch of jazz pizazz added on Pn and MTM, all firmly grounded in a solid, guitar-driven rock n roll base.

In the last few years I think my FM library has doubled due to all the wonderful re-releases, new finds and bootlegs. For my money, Shrine'69 showcases early FM with some brilliant music and really demonstrates the heights to which DK and PG could take guitar playing. I swear that sometimes the sustain, tone and vibrato that Danny brings on Something Inside of Me can just bring me to my knees. And Peter's solo on Need Your Love So Bad does the same thing. Holy Cow! And really, Jeremy really shines on that album as well.

One thing I think we all agree on is the Mac were hard to beat on interplay; those tradeoffs are simply out of this world at times. So much going on, with so little clashing, both on the albums and on stage. That is their signature sound, the moniker really, of early and middle era FM, the multi axe attack.

I have always believed that if Bob Weston had not been dismissed, he and Bob Welch would have gone on to even bigger things likewise. Welch was just so burned out after the Heroes production that he basically threw in the towel. You have n0 idea how hard he worked to see that project through, and it took its toll. While the rest of the band and management whirled and swirled, he busted his balls. There's a lot of intricate stuff there in those mixes too, most of it by his solo hand. That it holds up well, admittedly with a touch of spottiness here and there (some critics have called it murkiness - pffft), is mostly to Bob's credit and hard work ethic (not to overlook some nice chips by Christy). It was also the first FM album that didn't feature a multi guitar front - though Sneaky Pete (Kleinow) did add a touch of steel.

Not to be overlooked, Heroes further paved the way for the West Coast sound that Buckingham & Nicks soon brought in waves.

Anyway, I think that intelligently presented and thoughtful discussions like this one are really stimulating. They go beyond the meaningless discussions like who is the "best" guitar player ever. It comes down, so much, to personal choice and, for me, just where my head is at that particular moment. I have a friend that is always trying to get me started on a "who is better, Beatles or Rolling Stones" kind of discussion and I won't bite (seems like something two 15 year-olds would get into and 60 isn't that far away for me now). I would much rather participate in a discussion like this thread.

Hallelujah. It's damn near impossible to find the proper criteria to set judgment standards. Without even leaving FM as case in point, does one choose Green's striving toward the clouds & nirvana over Kirwan's preference to more structure and rhythm-drive in free flight jams? What is one, if not without the other? How do you assess Spencer's early and effective use of the slide guitar? What about the jazzy, even funk laden chords Welch brought to the table, or the gorgeous fills Bob Weston was so noted for. And then you have Lindsey's fresh west coast sound. Did pop stylings EVER sound better? At the end of the day the Mac faithful have all been blessed that FM offered such an out of this world variety of guitar styles, all within a unified core. And for whatever reason, including the constant shifts in personnel, it worked!

You really hit one thing on the head. Discussions like this bring out the true core fans, the thinking ones. Chops to the OP also, for presenting the article that kicked this off.

Last edited by snoot; 12-11-2008 at 07:38 PM..
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  #30  
Old 12-11-2008, 07:57 PM
snoot snoot is offline
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Originally Posted by seekerj View Post
QUOTE=snoot: WRONG! Ever hear of Bob Welch?

I just don't understand how anyone can even think of Welch as coming even close to Green, Kirwin, or Buckingham. I just don't see the same level of creativity in playing, or in songwriting.
No no, seekerj I beseech you! Put a good ear to Mystery To Me as perhaps the best example (but I could add French Kiss + Three Hearts just as easily). If you can't appreciate what Welch did there, those offbeat chord changes and riffs, or the gritty lappings he spun so effortlessly with Bob Weston, I don't know what to say. Then there is his fantastic vocal work with Christine. And if that's not enough, tell me if you have ever heard Mick and John work more dynamically? The rhythmic pulse on MTM is on another level altogether! There is some great jam flourishes going on throughout, plus some heady chord changes and unexpected shifts. That is some of the most compelling layering I've ever head, IMO worthy of the best of the others in Green + Kirwan (Then Play On), Spencer + Kirwan (Kiln House) or Kirwan + Welch (Bare Trees/Future Games).

I guess it's just me, but I've never understood the "Welch love". But I love Green, Kirwin, and Buckingham.

Now repeat after me: => I am going to go sit down, put on a quality set of headphones of Sennheiser/Yamaha quality or higher, dim the lights just a tad, and spin up Mystery To Me. I am going to put a truly critical ear to it, and while doing so I WILL NOT allow interruptions from my wife or girlfriend, or even my best friend should he offer to get me high (notwithstanding). Then I'm gonna come back and give my honest assessment to snoot and the greenies here, for better or worse. Now promise me you'll do that.

Whatever you report back I will respect.

PS. Review this just before you take the plunge (make sure to read to the bottom )
http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showth...t=15690&page=2
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