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  #61  
Old 03-15-2020, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by bombaysaffires View Post
The reality is, Lindsey (and Stevie) would have done better without Mick than vice versa. He should posthumously be kissing Keith's ass.
Richard Dashut: "I had moved out to a one-bedroom apartment near Fairfax. After Buckingham Nicks bombed, Stevie and Lindsey ran out of money, so they moved in with me. Back went the four-track, the cables, the stoned musicians sprawled on the floor, and we worked on demos for the next Buckingham Nicks album 'So Afraid,' 'Monday Morning,' and 'Rhiannon.'" They were lean, lean times for our lads. While Lindsey and Richard worked on the group's demos, Stevie worked, cleaning houses and waitressing at Bob's Big Boy to keep food on the table. "I was cleaning the house of our producer, Keith Olsen, for fifty dollars a week,"she remembers. "I used to come home with my big Hoover vacuum cleaner, my Ajax, my toilet brush, my cleaning shoes on.

Were Chris, Mick, John and Bob in a similar situation after the Heroes album?

Ok, all artits have ups and downs. Tina Turner used to clean houses after she left Ike, or so I read. Yes, Stevie and Lindsey could have been huge stars in their next album, but that's just a possibility. I wouldn't affirm it as a reality.
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  #62  
Old 03-15-2020, 07:08 PM
bombaysaffires bombaysaffires is offline
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Sure.

Fleetwood Mac had already sold 1.5-2 million albums and had just had a Top 40 album with HAHTF by Dec. 31, 1974. There’s a reason they weren’t dropped. There’s a reason they got a $250,000 advance (equivalent to $1.2 million today) to make the 1975 album. There’s a reason Bob Welch was offered a deal with Capitol Records with Paris before Fleetwood Mac were megastars. Fleetwood Mac never got dropped, Paris didn’t get dropped. Buckingham Nicks got dropped after one album. Fleetwood Mac without Buckingham Nicks was still viable. The opposite cannot be said. Stevie got that equation, Lindsey spent much of his initial time in the band railing against it.
And Bob had just left.

They weren't ever going to get above their typical sales of 100k or so albums without someone to replace him. Would they even have sustained those numbers otherwise? Doubtful.

Apples to oranges where each was at in their respective careers. Fleetwood Mac had the history of huge fame from the Peter Green days to fall back on. There was a built in fan base from the better part of the previous decade. And multiple albums and hit singles. But most of those were in the rear-view mirror.

BuckNicks was new. They had ONE album to their credit at that point. However, they were slowly building a groundswell, and they had a collection of songs with great potential (that went on to push the FM white album). So in that respect Lindsey is right in his thought that the potential for those BN songs was high. Would they have fulfilled that potential? Given that those songs in the versions we all know and love were produced by Keith Olsen, who was already working with them, again the likelihood of fulfilling that potential seems high. Stevie and Lindsey were the charismatic front people that they became for FM. I love Chris, but she was never going to be the charismatic front person a band needs (nor did she want to be).

So sure, FM at that moment in time had a back catalogue and a dedicated fan base, but on their own as the 3 they weren't going to get any bigger unless/until they found new players. BN as a self-contained unit was on the precipice of breaking through.

Saying BN propelled FM to success they wouldn't otherwise have had makes someone a "shipper" is pretty laughable. Especially for those of us who get ripped by actual shippers. One can find Stevie's behavior lately reprehensible, and still see the value she and Lindsey brought to the mix.
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  #63  
Old 03-16-2020, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bombaysaffires View Post
And Bob had just left.
And Christine was still there. You know, the person with most of the bands hits...

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They weren't ever going to get above their typical sales of 100k or so albums without someone to replace him. Would they even have sustained those numbers otherwise? Doubtful

Apples to oranges where each was at in their respective careers. Fleetwood Mac had the history of huge fame from the Peter Green days to fall back on. There was a built in fan base from the better part of the previous decade. And multiple albums and hit singles. But most of those were in the rear-view mirror.

BuckNicks was new. They had ONE album to their credit at that point. However, they were slowly building a groundswell, and they had a collection of songs with great potential (that went on to push the FM white album). So in that respect Lindsey is right in his thought that the potential for those BN songs was high. Would they have fulfilled that potential? Given that those songs in the versions we all know and love were produced by Keith Olsen, who was already working with them, again the likelihood of fulfilling that potential seems high. Stevie and Lindsey were the charismatic front people that they became for FM. I love Chris, but she was never going to be the charismatic front person a band needs (nor did she want to be).

So sure, FM at that moment in time had a back catalogue and a dedicated fan base, but on their own as the 3 they weren't going to get any bigger unless/until they found new players. BN as a self-contained unit was on the precipice of breaking through.

Saying BN propelled FM to success they wouldn't otherwise have had makes someone a "shipper" is pretty laughable. Especially for those of us who get ripped by actual shippers. One can find Stevie's behavior lately reprehensible, and still see the value she and Lindsey brought to the mix.
Iím not a shipper. The only ďshipĒ I care about is the Fleetwood-McVie-Perfect/McVie groove thatís been the defining part of the Fleetwood Mac sound since ďMr. Wonderful.Ē Those three together have something unique.

John Mayall & The Bluesbreakers didnít get dropped after their first album, the one they made prior to Clapton.

Chicken Shack didnít get dropped.

Christine Perfect didnít get dropped.

Fleetwood Mac didnít get dropped.

Paris didnít get dropped.

Buckingham Nicks got dropped. There was no demand for them outside of a few towns in the Deep South. They didnít have a label that liked them, believed in them, or was willing to stand by them. Certainly not a label that was willing to advance them $250k.

I half suspect Keith Olsen specifically played a couple of Buckingham Nicks songs to Mick because he knew enough about Fleetwood Macís history to see a potential opportunity to recoup some money off the freeloaders (Stevie and Lindsey). Making great music is all well and good, but it doesnít pay the bills unless someone buys it. Keith could have just as easily recommended Waddy, who may have been a more appropriate replacement for Bob Welch (weird looking, wears glasses, plays a Les Paul).

You imply that the band wouldnít have gotten anywhere without Peter, Bob, or Stevie and Lindsey. I donít disagree about Peter, but where were Bob or Buckingham Nicks before Fleetwood Mac? Christine had ten of the bandís eighteen Top-40 hit singles and Fleetwood Mac always had Top-40 albums when Mick was managing the band, including ďRumours.Ē At some point, arenít they also responsible for the bandís success?
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  #64  
Old 03-17-2020, 07:16 AM
jbrownsjr jbrownsjr is offline
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Chicken Shack didn’t get dropped.

Christine Perfect didn’t get dropped.

Fleetwood Mac didn’t get dropped.

Paris didn’t get dropped.

Buckingham Nicks got dropped.
And who's to say if B/N didn't sign on that FM wouldn't have found another amazing singer or duo? Entirely speculative.

And... In my opinion it was completely symbiotic for both parties.
And let's not forget 2 of the singles on the white album were Christine's compositions.

Point is Keith knew what he had with the chocolate in the peanut butter and he hit a home run with it.
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  #65  
Old 03-17-2020, 11:46 AM
bombaysaffires bombaysaffires is offline
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And Christine was still there. You know, the person with most of the bands hits...


I’m not a shipper. The only “ship” I care about is the Fleetwood-McVie-Perfect/McVie groove that’s been the defining part of the Fleetwood Mac sound since “Mr. Wonderful.” Those three together have something unique.

John Mayall & The Bluesbreakers didn’t get dropped after their first album, the one they made prior to Clapton.

Chicken Shack didn’t get dropped.

Christine Perfect didn’t get dropped.

Fleetwood Mac didn’t get dropped.

Paris didn’t get dropped.

Buckingham Nicks got dropped. There was no demand for them outside of a few towns in the Deep South. They didn’t have a label that liked them, believed in them, or was willing to stand by them. Certainly not a label that was willing to advance them $250k.

I half suspect Keith Olsen specifically played a couple of Buckingham Nicks songs to Mick because he knew enough about Fleetwood Mac’s history to see a potential opportunity to recoup some money off the freeloaders (Stevie and Lindsey). Making great music is all well and good, but it doesn’t pay the bills unless someone buys it. Keith could have just as easily recommended Waddy, who may have been a more appropriate replacement for Bob Welch (weird looking, wears glasses, plays a Les Paul).

You imply that the band wouldn’t have gotten anywhere without Peter, Bob, or Stevie and Lindsey. I don’t disagree about Peter, but where were Bob or Buckingham Nicks before Fleetwood Mac? Christine had ten of the band’s eighteen Top-40 hit singles and Fleetwood Mac always had Top-40 albums when Mick was managing the band, including “Rumours.” At some point, aren’t they also responsible for the band’s success?
First off the shipper comment was not about or towards you it was in response to someone else who commented after you.

If you didn't cherry pick my comments you'd see that I acknowledged Chris.

However, those 18 top 40 hits of hers that you mention-- tell me, were those before or after they hooked up with BN-- those magical 3-part harmonies and LB and his production?? (Indeed Chris said on Johnny Walker right before returning that when she heard the material L&S had she thought 'right, I need to up my game here' with regards to her songwriting).

I agree that she was the only one of the Mick/Chris/John trio to have had individual success. She writes and sings, so that makes sense. What would Mick or John be doing without a singer songwriter? Maybe they'd have ended up doing session work if they hadn't found new frontpeople. Thing is, while Chris is fabulous, she is not really a "front person" -- by her own words. Nor does she want to be one -- by her own words. So again, having Chris is great, but it wouldn't have gotten them the crowds and recognition having a more charismatic person up front would have (Bob, Peter, etc). With BN they got TWO.

You seem to want to argue that the Brits in the band without adding anyone new could have gone on to be as big as they were minus BN. Preposterous. With someone new upfront other than BN, possibly. But it wouldn't clearly have ended up with the same batch of songs that they still all cash in on to this day. (Rumours reissue volume 12, anyone?) There is (was ) a unique chemistry to the mix of those 5 that I personally doubt they would ever have had with anyone else.

As for Keith, no one doubts he knew the mix of the two BN/FM had the potential to make it big. That's his stock in trade. I don't see how that negates anything. If neither side had anything to bring to the equation why would he have bothered to bring them together? After all he's the guy who saw Fritz and said the band wasn't that special but those two kids out front, now they had something and he'd be interested in them. And again, Rhiannon, Landslide, I'm So Afraid along with half of Stevie's eventual solo material were already written when they were working on BN2. Waddy is a great player, he might even be technically more sophisticated than LB, but would he have been a great front person? Would he have the charisma to pull FM out of its cult status, getting them to sell more than the same 100k albums? I'd vote no.
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  #66  
Old 03-17-2020, 11:51 AM
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Waddy is a great player, he might even be technically more sophisticated than LB, but would he have been a great front person? Would he have the charisma to pull FM out of its cult status, getting them to sell more than the same 100k albums? I'd vote no.
PLUS, $tevie and Lindsey were both young, very attractive people. Don't think that that didn't play into the success somewhat.

Waddy's face could stop a tank.
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  #67  
Old 03-17-2020, 12:12 PM
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PLUS, $tevie and Lindsey were both young, very attractive people. Don't think that that didn't play into the success somewhat.

Waddy's face could stop a tank.
We should never underestimate the impact of Stevie's appearance on her success. No one understands this better than Stevie herself.
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  #68  
Old 03-17-2020, 01:22 PM
jbrownsjr jbrownsjr is offline
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First off the shipper comment was not about or towards you it was in response to someone else who commented after you.

If you didn't cherry pick my comments you'd see that I acknowledged Chris.

However, those 18 top 40 hits of hers that you mention-- tell me, were those before or after they hooked up with BN-- those magical 3-part harmonies and LB and his production?? (Indeed Chris said on Johnny Walker right before returning that when she heard the material L&S had she thought 'right, I need to up my game here' with regards to her songwriting).

I agree that she was the only one of the Mick/Chris/John trio to have had individual success. She writes and sings, so that makes sense. What would Mick or John be doing without a singer songwriter? Maybe they'd have ended up doing session work if they hadn't found new frontpeople. Thing is, while Chris is fabulous, she is not really a "front person" -- by her own words. Nor does she want to be one -- by her own words. So again, having Chris is great, but it wouldn't have gotten them the crowds and recognition having a more charismatic person up front would have (Bob, Peter, etc). With BN they got TWO.

You seem to want to argue that the Brits in the band without adding anyone new could have gone on to be as big as they were minus BN. Preposterous. With someone new upfront other than BN, possibly. But it wouldn't clearly have ended up with the same batch of songs that they still all cash in on to this day. (Rumours reissue volume 12, anyone?) There is (was ) a unique chemistry to the mix of those 5 that I personally doubt they would ever have had with anyone else.

As for Keith, no one doubts he knew the mix of the two BN/FM had the potential to make it big. That's his stock in trade. I don't see how that negates anything. If neither side had anything to bring to the equation why would he have bothered to bring them together? After all he's the guy who saw Fritz and said the band wasn't that special but those two kids out front, now they had something and he'd be interested in them. And again, Rhiannon, Landslide, I'm So Afraid along with half of Stevie's eventual solo material were already written when they were working on BN2. Waddy is a great player, he might even be technically more sophisticated than LB, but would he have been a great front person? Would he have the charisma to pull FM out of its cult status, getting them to sell more than the same 100k albums? I'd vote no.

I won't cherry pick your comments. I'll just say this. I've had so many shippers argue with me that B/N took FM to where it was today. And, I"m only saying that it's true, in part.
Truth is, B/N was in fact dropped. In fact, they were using free recording time.

I'm saying it was a symbiotic joining of people. You can speculate all you want. (And it's fun to do so). But, I truly believe they helped each other out.
The other thing I want to say is that Stevie has acknowledged they(the brits) were far better off than B/N. She's done so in many instances. Also, has said that the three part harmony was beyond. And then you look at Christine having 2 really successful hits. They are still heavily played today. I probably could hear SYLM everyday if I put on the right radio stations, or went into CVS all day.

Seems like I may have irritated you, and if I did, I didn't mean to. You were addressing my comments in Steve's quote. So I was confused a bit on who you were speaking to.
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  #69  
Old 03-18-2020, 08:14 PM
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Thereís no shame in being a shipper. I have been one and I am proud of it and donít think my beliefs were invalid at the time. But love changes. Now I am standing here, roadside, with nothing to hold and a great deal of venom.
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Old 03-18-2020, 09:40 PM
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Thereís no shame in being a shipper. I have been one and I am proud of it and donít think my beliefs were invalid at the time. But love changes. Now I am standing here, roadside, with nothing to hold and a great deal of venom.
But I don't think you were ever irrational about it. You didn't hate LB's wife. You didn't try to discount Christine and the rest of their history as if it didn't exist. You didn't accuse Christine of breaking them up.

You just simply loved that relationship and knew it's value to the group.
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Old 03-18-2020, 10:31 PM
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No, I always loved Christine, until she broke my heart.
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Old 03-18-2020, 10:41 PM
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No, I always loved Christine, until she broke my heart.
Exactly the same. She was always my favorite. Until I learned that she has no backbone, and doesn't stand up for her friends, and folds like a cheap lawn chair.

I still love her, but no longer respect her. She's a lame, company shill.

Really, Lindsey is the only one I still respect.
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Old 03-19-2020, 08:15 AM
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Don't you two start with me!!
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Old 03-19-2020, 09:56 AM
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Don't you two start with me!!
Michele and I didn't start this. Chaise lounge Christine did.

She ain't Superwoman, as Mick once called her. #companyshillbethinename #chaiseloungechristine
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Old 03-19-2020, 10:17 AM
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Michele and I didn't start this. Chaise lounge Christine did.

She ain't Superwoman, as Mick once called her. #companyshillbethinename #chaiseloungechristine
Sooner or later I'll forget.
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