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  #61  
Old 02-09-2018, 11:31 AM
ricohv ricohv is offline
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Originally Posted by sodascouts View Post
Another problem is that Lindsey's on a different page than Stevie now musically, and has been for quite some time, when it comes to "sound." He often likes to make things sound unnatural - manipulated vocals, sped up guitar parts, sound effects, etc... she's not into that. Back in the day, his suggestions involved adding interesting harmonies, bridges, guitar parts... but in the recent era, they might also include adding bizarre stuff like the freaky manipulated voice echoing that "What I saw on this journey" verse in "Illume." That was definitely.... different.... and not very "Stevie." So I can kind of see where she might be a little nervous.

On the other hand, she made him promise to leave "Without You" alone and he did... and I think it would have benefited from some tweaking in its arrangement! Not by adding gimmicks, mind you, but by finding ways to make it less repetitive. Lindsey could have helped her with that. These people need to find middle ground!
This is one of the most insightful things I've read in regards to Lindsey & Stevie in a long time. And I hadn't really considered it. Lindsey's production has evolved in a way that doesn't seem to fit Stevie's style. And she still needs a good producer's help, but maybe in a more organic way. Dave Stewart did it successfully on In Your Dreams but turned 24k Gold into a hot production mess, JMHO!
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  #62  
Old 02-09-2018, 12:42 PM
lbfan lbfan is offline
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Originally Posted by sodascouts View Post
Another problem is that Lindsey's on a different page than Stevie now musically, and has been for quite some time, when it comes to "sound." He often likes to make things sound unnatural - manipulated vocals, sped up guitar parts, sound effects, etc... she's not into that. Back in the day, his suggestions involved adding interesting harmonies, bridges, guitar parts... but in the recent era, they might also include adding bizarre stuff like the freaky manipulated voice echoing that "What I saw on this journey" verse in "Illume." That was definitely.... different.... and not very "Stevie." So I can kind of see where she might be a little nervous.

On the other hand, she made him promise to leave "Without You" alone and he did... and I think it would have benefited from some tweaking in its arrangement! Not by adding gimmicks, mind you, but by finding ways to make it less repetitive. Lindsey could have helped her with that. These people need to find middle ground!
The obvious exception from back in the day (that apparently Stevie did like) is Gold Dust Woman which included breaking glass and stressed out shrieks (reference Rumours Classic Albums video). Lindsey has always pushed the envelope, but in in the best interest of the song production, not only with his own songs, but with others as well. For example, on the Buckingham McVie CD - Christine discussed the “liberties he took” on Feel About You, which she liked, but it was different than what she anticipated. For me personally, that is the “Fleetwood Mac sound” that is classic and timeless. I can’t imagine Gold Dust Woman, or Landslide, or any other FM song any other way than it was produced. Lindsey deserves the lion share of the credit (or blame depending on your perspective) for the outcome of the songs.
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  #63  
Old 02-09-2018, 02:21 PM
FuzzyPlum FuzzyPlum is offline
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Lindsey is a visionary producer- I get that. He's a talented guy.
But I wonder whether he's been elevated a bit too high with regards to those early albums. He wasn't originally given the credit as producer but now I think it might have gone a bit far the other way.

Richard Dashut & Ken Caillat...and even Keith Olsen. Those guys had a major impact on The Mac sound.

As far as In Your Dreams- I think it was a bit bland, so, yeah I'd have welcomed some of Lindsey's quirks.
Feel About You- I get what he was aiming for, but I'd love to hear a stripped back version. I think he just missed the mark a bit.
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  #64  
Old 02-09-2018, 04:08 PM
bombaysaffires bombaysaffires is offline
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I tried answering your post on my mobile and it was a royal pain in the bum, but I'm not going to go back so I'll just post it as it is.....


Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveMacD;1220599
[I
The new leadership at WB following the December, 1992 death of WB head Steve Ross (not the guitarist) brought in changes that didn’t necessarily benefit the band. Ross had had a hands off approach to Warner Music, but the new head was described as a bean counter. By August, 1994, Mo Ostin and Lenny Waronker, both champions of Fleetwood Mac, were out at the label. Given the poor performances of OOTC, Street Angel, and Time (and the lack of promotion for the latter two albums), I think Lindsey was being very cautious about how to proceed. He could have released a solo album a few years earlier, but he was encouraged to wait and see what was going on at the label and was entertaining offers from other labels. I suspect what was going to be GoS was recorded with the durability of becoming a Fleetwood Mac album, if needed. [/i]

What you describe are the politics at the record label. He didn't have to agree to merging his solo album into a Mac album, but he did. They made a case that his stuff would reach a wider audience via FM than solo because he'd been off the scene for a number of years. He processed that advice and chose to take it. Maybe they pressured him. But what you've described isn't the band pressuring him, it's all the machinations at the label. Again, if he felt that strongly about keeping it a solo album, he should have. There were ways to get your own music out "to the right ears" without a label even then.


No, they just stuck a producer they knew he’d hate working with to force his hand (which Mick bragged about in 1987).

Bringing in a producer he would hate to work with made him do a band album? You've lost me here.


John has said in numerous interviews that he makes songwriters take the bass out of their demos and that Lindsey was especially bad about telling him what to play. It’s not an assumption, it’s what he’s said over the years.

Yes, that was part of what I said in my previous post. Lindsey tried telling people exactly what to play and it didn't go over well with Mick and John.



But that’s the whole point of what I’m saying. The fact is Lindsey, as well as Mick, John, and even Christine, began working on the project in late 1995/early 1996. They weren’t going to change the vision for the album at that point. (“What you don’t realize, Stevie, is that we’ve just spent the last six months trying not to be ourselves.”)

Firstly, Mick's comment was a joke. It's very British. He was very much taking the piss. Second, the band DID change the vision for it, and everyone but Lindsey was on board with that, i.e. he wanted a double album and everyone else felt it should be a single album. Lindsey fought hard for his vision and they pushed back. That isn't just Stevie. Mick is in the documentary saying he agrees with his manager's opinion that the album shouldn't be Lindsey's vision. That's why Lindsey is seen saying he feels betrayed and like he doesn't have an ally in the band at that point

That’s also why Lindsey wanted to do something from scratch with Stevie so that she would have equal input on the direction of the album.

But which is it? They already had it worked out and she needed to come in and fit into it, or Lindsey was willing to start all over totally from scratch? These two comments seem contradictory.


Which he said he’d be willing to give up, and why he brought Mitchell Froom on board for EP.

I think from Stevie's perspective and years of experience working with him she has seen it can be very hard for him not to still try and control the process even with an outside producer at the board. You get glimpses of it on the BuckVie making of video.



But, Stevie can’t just send over demos, be completely removed from the creative process, and be upset when it goes in a direction she doesn’t like.

I don't disagree with this point at all.


Not necessarily. I see people on here who are critical of his production techniques. I think many, myself included, think Lindsey could get back to doing more basic, fundamental songs and production. And, I think he’s open to it in the context of a Fleetwood Mac album.
I don't know about this last one. Seeing what he did with Chris's songs on the BuckVie record doesn't give me great confidence this would really be the case.
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  #65  
Old 02-09-2018, 04:25 PM
JohnL JohnL is offline
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Originally Posted by HomerMcvie View Post
Yet you act like you're so unhappy here.

According to your definition, you fit in perfectly.
I do get a bit unhappy when I try to read through threads and the subject of the thread has absolutely nothing to do with bashing Stevie Nicks...but every thread turns into that. Do you guys take no accountability for your part in this? You cannot actually believe it is everyone else and not you.
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  #66  
Old 02-09-2018, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bombaysaffires View Post
^ This.
I fully agree with this. It is necessary!!
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  #67  
Old 02-09-2018, 05:16 PM
jwd jwd is offline
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I used to get so defensive about Stevie. I really don't care what anyone says about her anymore. Actually I have fun with it and just chime in. All the members of the band have something you can make fun of. Stevie just gets the bulk of it, because you know the biggest stars always take the most heat. did I just say that?
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  #68  
Old 02-09-2018, 07:45 PM
jbrownsjr jbrownsjr is offline
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Originally Posted by jwd View Post
I used to get so defensive about Stevie. I really don't care what anyone says about her anymore. Actually I have fun with it and just chime in. All the members of the band have something you can make fun of. Stevie just gets the bulk of it, because you know the biggest stars always take the most heat. did I just say that?
You did!!!
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  #69  
Old 02-09-2018, 08:40 PM
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elle elle is offline
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Originally Posted by FuzzyPlum View Post
Lindsey is a visionary producer- I get that. He's a talented guy.
But I wonder whether he's been elevated a bit too high with regards to those early albums. He wasn't originally given the credit as producer but now I think it might have gone a bit far the other way.
he may get the credit now, the other guys still get the money so i suspect they are all good!
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  #70  
Old 02-09-2018, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by bombaysaffires View Post
I tried answering your post on my mobile and it was a royal pain in the bum, but I'm not going to go back so I'll just post it as it is.....
.......................................
Firstly, Mick's comment was a joke. It's very British. He was very much taking the piss. Second, the band DID change the vision for it, and everyone but Lindsey was on board with that, i.e. he wanted a double album and everyone else felt it should be a single album. Lindsey fought hard for his vision and they pushed back. That isn't just Stevie. Mick is in the documentary saying he agrees with his manager's opinion that the album shouldn't be Lindsey's vision. That's why Lindsey is seen saying he feels betrayed and like he doesn't have an ally in the band at that point.
........................................


I don't know about this last one. Seeing what he did with Chris's songs on the BuckVie record doesn't give me great confidence this would really be the case.
Mick will always agree with any opinion that will result in more money. has nothing to do with whether or not he agrees with vision. he may love the art and creating, but money always ends up being his main motivator.

other than Feel About You, i'm not sure what other Chris' song on BuckVie you are talking about? FAY seems to be the only song Lindsey heavily changed from her "rough". she heavily changed 2 of his. and they all tried different ways of Carnival and decided to go with a slower bluesier one.
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  #71  
Old 02-09-2018, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnL View Post
I do get a bit unhappy when I try to read through threads and the subject of the thread has absolutely nothing to do with bashing Stevie Nicks...but every thread turns into that. Do you guys take no accountability for your part in this? You cannot actually believe it is everyone else and not you.
Perhaps some think the most fun comes from watching the few who get totally up in arms about, having a hissy fit... Their panties in a wad. Or perhaps in a bunch, depending on the origin of one's panties.
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  #72  
Old 02-09-2018, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by bombaysaffires View Post
Maybe they pressured him. But what you've described isn't the band pressuring him, it's all the machinations at the label.
I wasn’t suggesting that he was getting pressure from the band to turn what was going to be GoS into what became SYW, just that it would be unreasonable to expect Lindsey make his songs fit the feel/vibe of Stevie’s new demos after he and the others worked for five to six years on his songs.

Quote:
Again, if he felt that strongly about keeping it a solo album, he should have.
The fact he brought on Mick, John, and Christine from the outset suggests he wanted durability as to how it could be released from the gitgo. Still, as a production, it had a sound, a feel, a vibe that was fairly etched in stone by the time Stevie got involved.

Quote:
Bringing in a producer he would hate to work with made him do a band album? You've lost me here.
Christine said Lindsey had to be coerced into making TITN and Mick initially brought on a producer he knew Lindsey wouldn’t like. Check out the first five minutes or so of this: https://youtu.be/pvKMvklt1k0

Quote:
Yes, that was part of what I said in my previous post. Lindsey tried telling people exactly what to play and it didn't go over well with Mick and John.
It wasn’t just Lindsey …

Quote:
the band DID change the vision for it, and everyone but Lindsey was on board with that, i.e. he wanted a double album and everyone else felt it should be a single album. Lindsey fought hard for his vision and they pushed back. That isn't just Stevie. Mick is in the documentary saying he agrees with his manager's opinion that the album shouldn't be Lindsey's vision. That's why Lindsey is seen saying he feels betrayed and like he doesn't have an ally in the band at that point
That’s different from what I am talking about. Regardless of single album or double album, Lindsey was always going to adapt her new songs to the sonic feel of the project he’d been working on for years.

Quote:
But which is it? They already had it worked out and she needed to come in and fit into it, or Lindsey was willing to start all over totally from scratch? These two comments seem contradictory.
I was talking about the album Lindsey wanted to make after SYW that never happened. I think he wanted to make an album like how they made Buckingham Nicks.

Quote:
I don't know about this last one. Seeing what he did with Chris's songs on the BuckVie record doesn't give me great confidence this would really be the case.
That’s really not a good measure, since Christine solicited Lindsey’s help and wanted him to produce her songs. She was also happy with it.
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Last edited by SteveMacD : 02-09-2018 at 11:06 PM.
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  #73  
Old 02-10-2018, 12:01 AM
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Christine and Stevie never made a pact to make the same as the boys in the band.
Do you honestly think Christine ever felt the need to make such a pact? Do you think Christine ever had to worry about not partying with the boys? Do you really think Christine lost a single night’s sleep ever worrying that Mick might be paying her less than Bob Welch or Lindsey Buckingham? Also, Christine was still in a legal battle over who owned the band’s name, so I’m sure she was especially sensitive about getting screwed over. Not that she had anything to worry about with Fleetwood Mac, since Mick was like a brother and she was still married to John.

The only reason Stevie made those pacts was because she was completely out of her league, and the pacts gave her some sense of security.

Quote:
It is in literally 99% of the threads on this Rumours board. Look at yourselves in the mirror!!
Stevie fans can dish it out with the best of them. I remember Stevie fans bashing the hell out of Bekka Bramlett in 1995. I also remember when “Twisted” was announced how Stevie fans said things like bringing in Lindsey was her revenge on Mick for not letting her use Silver Springs (obviously before it was learned Mick played drums on it). Point being that those of us who’ve been part of the Fleetwood Mac online community for over twenty years have seen ugliness from all factions.
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  #74  
Old 02-10-2018, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by HomerMcvie View Post
Perhaps some think the most fun comes from watching the few who get totally up in arms about, having a hissy fit... Their panties in a wad. Or perhaps in a bunch, depending on the origin of one's panties.
If I cared what you thought of me, I would have left this alone a long time ago. I just find the hypocrisy entertaining.
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  #75  
Old 02-10-2018, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by SteveMacD View Post
Do you honestly think Christine ever felt the need to make such a pact? Do you think Christine ever had to worry about not partying with the boys? Do you really think Christine lost a single night’s sleep ever worrying that Mick might be paying her less than Bob Welch or Lindsey Buckingham? Also, Christine was still in a legal battle over who owned the band’s name, so I’m sure she was especially sensitive about getting screwed over. Not that she had anything to worry about with Fleetwood Mac, since Mick was like a brother and she was still married to John.

The only reason Stevie made those pacts was because she was completely out of her league, and the pacts gave her some sense of security.


Stevie fans can dish it out with the best of them. I remember Stevie fans bashing the hell out of Bekka Bramlett in 1995. I also remember when “Twisted” was announced how Stevie fans said things like bringing in Lindsey was her revenge on Mick for not letting her use Silver Springs (obviously before it was learned Mick played drums on it). Point being that those of us who’ve been part of the Fleetwood Mac online community for over twenty years have seen ugliness from all factions.
All I can say is that I can totally see them coverting after a Rumours recording session with the guys in the other house and making some kind of pact that they would never let being the girls in the band hinder their success or be used as a reason to be treated differently by others. I can so see Christine doing that. I think this is documented in a few interviews even way back in the day.
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