Let's show some love for Penguin and Heroes!

[PenguinHead]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

I'm a bit of an odd bird when it comes to blues and blues singers... but a white dude from England is NOT an authentic blues singer . About the furthest thing you can get from authentic, in my book. When I hear white English dudes like Walker, Joe Cocker, and others trying to emulate gritty Delta blues men, it just puts a sandy pinecone up my orifice of choice. Those type dudes don't know anything about being a black man in the Southern US, where you couldn't drink from the white man's water fountain, and had to go to separate schools, etc. White English dudes who try to sing gritty blues are just a caricature emulating the real thing, in my book. And they always end up profiting from the sound they're aping, while the original folks never get rich off their craft. I think that's why I at least respect Peter Green's approach to the blues a bit more... he made it his own. He didn't try to sing like anybody else. He didn't try to carbon copy his pacing and tone on his guitar.

But alas, that's not the big reason why I don't care for songs like I'm A Roadrunner and The Derelict. To me, they're just sorely, sorely out of place on Penguin. They have nothing to do with the rest of the album. They're a wart. If the entire album had that sound, it'd be a different story. These tunes could have worked on Bare Trees, perhaps... but not Penguin. To me, the '73-'74 Mac albums were starting to get a quite progressive sound to them... and I'm A Roadrunner and The Derelict just seem like two steps back. Just my humble opinion tho, folks!

I have a fond appreciation for odd birds, and agree with your insightful comments. I never understood how so many lily pale white english blokes were able to gain credibility co-opting the blues; a very strange period of time in music for UK/Europe.

I guess a bunch of wimpy white guys singing the blues was much more palatable and less threatening to the masses than a bunch of big black guys. Reference how rock and roll emerged: white guys borrowed and stole many aspects of old blues, modified it and resold it. They got famous and made a lot of money, while the original creators were often left uncredited, and wallowing in obscurity and poverty. That's rock and roll!

But now I diverge...kudos to you for using the word "Alas."

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by PenguinHead

I have a fond appreciation for odd birds, and agree with your insightful comments. I never understood how so many lily pale white english blokes were able to gain credibility co-opting the blues; a very strange period of time in music for UK/Europe.

I guess a bunch of wimpy white guys singing the blues was much more palatable and less threatening to the masses than a bunch of big black guys. Reference how rock and roll emerged: white guys borrowed and stole many aspects of old blues, modified it and resold it. They got famous and made a lot of money, while the original creators were often left uncredited, and wallowing in obscurity and poverty. That's rock and roll!

But now I diverge...kudos to you for using the word "Alas."

It's actually very simple. The English were receiving the same records sold in the U.S. through shipping ports such as Southhampton, and Liverpool. The difference is the bible belt goons who resided in the deep south prevented the locals from receiving such material, including Little Richard, and Chuck Berry. So England was getting the blues/rnr records that were outlawed in the deep south of the U.S., while the lucky ones such as Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, Carl Perkins, Roy Orbison and Johnny Cash heard the juke joints in person. So those Sun Record individuals exposed a side a life to the sheltered ones, and the rest is history. You're right, because they were white, they opened the door, we're talking about the United States in the late 1950's !?!? Should I send you the link for Pat Boone's "Tutti Frutti" from Youtube? That was mainstream America. It was free of commies, only to worry about the next Soviet invasion. We call this era; "Commie paranoia"

Fast forward ten years; The Beatles own the top 40 in the US, as do a few British invasion acts. Ten years on, British blues bands emerge. Those bands have albums that were never allowed to be released in the deep white south. Yet a certain band from Macon, GA had connections.


I'm aware of what the likes of Peter Grant, and Jimmy Page did to prevent the royalties to go to the rightful owners of their songs (Willie Dixon). Yet you can't put that stigma on Peter Green.


If it wasn't for the 1960's British Blues movement, many NPR blues' snobs' would be out of a job today.

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by PenguinHead

The reason they hired Dave was not to change the sound of the band. Recalling comments from band members, they convinced themselves to believe that they needed a front man...at this point in time.

Yet they were very uncomfortable with that prospect -- hence his limited output on the album. They just didn't really know what to do with him - how to assimilate him into the group as the front man. Then it became very obvious to all that the chemistry was off and having an official designated "front man" was not the preferred format of a Fleetwood Mac band.

From all that I've read, it wasn't "the band" that even wanted a front man...it was their manager Clifford Davis. HE convinced the rest of FMac that they needed Dave Walker...or demanded that they take him on is more like it.

Wasn't Dave's fault...he needed work, Fleetwood Mac hired him. Was it a good fit? History shows "no" (and he wasn't a good fit with Black Sabbath either, which is why he didn't stick with them, either). But, Dave DOES have talent...his prior Savoy Brown output, and his recent/current material shows that.

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by PenguinHead

The reason they hired Dave was not to change the sound of the band. Recalling comments from band members, they convinced themselves to believe that they needed a front man...at this point in time.

Yet they were very uncomfortable with that prospect -- hence his limited output on the album. They just didn't really know what to do with him - how to assimilate him into the group as the front man. Then it became very obvious to all that the chemistry was off and having an official designated "front man" was not the preferred format of a Fleetwood Mac band.

However...

Whether the band or Clifford Davis was behind the hiring of Dave, what was the reason for hiring him in particular? There must have been some belief that his sound was what FM wanted (or what Clifford Davis wanted for FM). Otherwise they could have hired a front man who sang opera.

I'm not questioning whether Dave as a personality fitted into the band or whether the band needed a front man - we know from history that they didn't (they needed a front-woman but that is a story for a different day).

I just figure that other than the fact that Dave needed a job and that FM or Davis thought they needed a front man, there must have been a reason for hiring somone with his particular style - hence either the band or Davis wanted to bring a somewhat raw bluesy style to their music.

Personally I can imagine the conversation with Davis telling the band "Guys we really need to capture this harder edged sound, its what is selling out there right now. We need to harden you up a little. I know of a perfect front-man who can really work a crowd, plus he'll blow the rest of you off the stage with his voice. The record buying public will love it"

Ok so maybe that is just my imagination but Dave has said in interviews that what he thought they wanted and what they did want were two very different things. I'd hazard a guess that it wasn't only to be a front-man but also more of a raw bluesy sound.

Disagree if you will

[sjpdg]

Originally Posted by slipkid

It's actually very simple. The English were receiving the same records sold in the U.S. through shipping ports such as Southhampton, and Liverpool. The difference is the bible belt goons who resided in the deep south prevented the locals from receiving such material, including Little Richard, and Chuck Berry. So England was getting the blues/rnr records that were outlawed in the deep south of the U.S., while the lucky ones such as Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, Carl Perkins, Roy Orbison and Johnny Cash heard the juke joints in person. So those Sun Record individuals exposed a side a life to the sheltered ones, and the rest is history. You're right, because they were white, they opened the door, we're talking about the United States in the late 1950's !?!? Should I send you the link for Pat Boone's "Tutti Frutti" from Youtube? That was mainstream America. It was free of commies, only to worry about the next Soviet invasion. We call this era; "Commie paranoia"

Fast forward ten years; The Beatles own the top 40 in the US, as do a few British invasion acts. Ten years on, British blues bands emerge. Those bands have albums that were never allowed to be released in the deep white south. Yet a certain band from Macon, GA had connections.


I'm aware of what the likes of Peter Grant, and Jimmy Page did to prevent the royalties to go to the rightful owners of their songs (Willie Dixon). Yet you can't put that stigma on Peter Green.


If it wasn't for the 1960's British Blues movement, many NPR blues' snobs' would be out of a job today.

I'll just put it the way B.B. King puts in on his XM Radio channel: "There's no black, no white, only the blues baby." The blues has no color, no ethnicity. It helped give birth to rock and roll and is a close relative to country music. In my humble opinion, it is one of the places (not the only one, but at least one of the places) where blacks and white have been able to come together and work on ripping down the walls that have been built between them. So, I say, "God Bless the Blues!!!"

[bluefox4000]

Ok Penguin May not be the strongest album (Roadrunner..um yuck) However it does contain The Derelict Which is one of my fav Mac songs in the history of Macdom. As for Hero's....Awesome album My 2nd favorite pre-rumors album behind Bare Trees. Silver Heels is love. Adore the title track. Just....I love this whole album. Certainly better then Mystery to Me(Which I never ever....EVER understood the high praise for....and never will Ahhhh but I digress)

Oh and Dave Walker gets an unfair wrap

Mick

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by bluefox4000

Ok Penguin May not be the strongest album (Roadrunner..um yuck) However it does contain The Derelict Which is one of my fav Mac songs in the history of Macdom. As for Hero's....Awesome album My 2nd favorite pre-rumors album behind Bare Trees. Silver Heels is love. Adore the title track. Just....I love this whole album. Certainly better then Mystery to Me(Which I never ever....EVER understood the high praise for....and never will Ahhhh but I digress)

Oh and Dave Walker gets an unfair wrap

Mick

So you wanted Fleetwood Mac to mimic the 70's era of "The Band", with Bob Dylan? That's what "The Derelict" sounds to me. I'm now convinced that after "Mystery To Me"'s version of 'Hypnotized", the old band died by firing squad. It fought hard to hold on, but it was just too much. Peter Green was three steps ahead of Fleetwood Mac, that's why he quit 5/70. He wasn't insane (then), he just had enough!

[bluefox4000]

So sue me I like the Derelict ......OH NO!!!!!!!! lol. And no I did Not want them to become like Dylan I just Love the song......and I stand by It.

Mick

Oh and Mystery to Me Contains Forever......Which is the worst song EVER Recorded...FOREEEVER AND EEEEVER. so there ya go.. I'm not sure how relevant that is....I just really wanted to bash the song...lol

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by bluefox4000

So sue me I like the Derelict ......OH NO!!!!!!!! lol. And no I did Not want them to become like Dylan I just Love the song......and I stand by It.

It's a great song. As much as I love Dylan (and by extension of that I like The Band) that does not influence my love of The Derelict. In fact I liked The Derelict before I ever bought a Bob Dylan album.

I'm a big fan of Walker though, sure he's not the most clean cut or cultured of the FM members but he has a raw power and talent that continues to shine though to this day.

*goes off to keep banging head against wall*

[jaycee]

Originally Posted by bluefox4000

Oh and Mystery to Me Contains Forever......Which is the worst song EVER Recorded...FOREEEVER AND EEEEVER. so there ya go.. I'm not sure how relevant that is....I just really wanted to bash the song...lol

[bluefox4000]

Aw come on you can't tell me you like the song lol. just kidding. if you like it fine. To me it's one of the most annoying songs committed to wax.

Mick

[blinker12]

I love Christine's writing from this period (1971-1974) in general. For me the "Heroes" album is a special treat because it contains what I think are three of her best songs: the title track, "Come a Little Bit Closer" and most of all, "Prove Your Love."
When I first got the album as a teenager, I liked "Heroes" and "Come Closer" best - more recently "Prove" is my favorite. All three are so tuneful, sad and catchy at the same time - a combo that is Christine's trademark!

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by blinker12

I love Christine's writing from this period (1971-1974) in general. For me the "Heroes" album is a special treat because it contains what I think are three of her best songs: the title track, "Come a Little Bit Closer" and most of all, "Prove Your Love."
When I first got the album as a teenager, I liked "Heroes" and "Come Closer" best - more recently "Prove" is my favorite. All three are so tuneful, sad and catchy at the same time - a combo that is Christine's trademark!

Yep before she sold out and produced sugar-coated pop with annoying regularity.

[michelej1]

Another entry in David Bowling's Fleetwood Mac series for Blogcritics.org, 11/2/2010

http://blogcritics.org/music/article...d-mac-penguin/

During the tour for Fleetwood Mac's 1972 release, Bare Trees, guitarist Danny Kirwan stopped showing up for performances, for which he was summarily fired from the group. Guitarist Bob Welch, keyboardist Christine McVie, bassist John McVie, and drummer Mick Fleetwood recruited two musicians to fill his shoes.

Guitarist Bob Weston and vocalist/harpist Dave Walker were added to the band as they entered the studio to record their next album. Penguin would emerge as an inconsistent release, as the new parts of Fleetwood Mac did not mesh with the old ones very well. Walker’s gritty vocals were far removed from the pop sound the group was moving toward, and as such he was an odd choice. He would be asked to leave shortly after the album's release.

Weston would clash with Bob Welch, but his undoing was his affair with Mick Fleetwood’s wife, Jenny Boyd. who’s sister Patti married and divorced George Harrison and Eric Clapton. The affair would end with Weston being fired and their U.S. tour coming to a halt. Fleetwood would divorce, remarry, and redivorce Boyd.

It is Welch who provided the center for the album. Plus, his keeping the group alive during this troubled period in its history should have ended with his entrance into The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame when eight members of Fleetwood Mac were inducted.

"Bright Fire” is both odd and soothing and has a Pink Floyd feel. “Revelation” is a nice rocker with Christine McVie’s vocals overdubbed to provide the background. “Night Watch,” at over six minutes, is the best track and dominates the album. Welch's vocal is excellent and some nice harmonies are in place. Peter Green adds some uncredited lead guitar.

Christine McVie’s contributions are fine but not outstanding. “Remember Me” has a light and bluesy feeling. “Dissatisfied” moves in a soul direction, highlighted by Fleetwood’s drumming. She and Welch wrote “Did You Ever Leave Me," but the song would have been better served by having Welch duet with her rather than Weston.

Dave Walker’s “The Derelict” remains one of the worst songs in the Fleetwood Mac catalogue, as it is basically a country tune complete with a banjo and a vocal which does not fit. Likewise, his vocal on the Holland, B./Dozier/Holland, E. tune “(I’m A) Road Runner” is out of place. “Caught In The Rain” is a Weston instrumental creation which ends the album on a depressing note.

Kirwan’s subtle guitar playing and songwriting were greatly missed. Bob Welch did what he could but even with all his efforts, the album only approached average. Penguin is a Fleetwood Mac album only for fans who want everything in the band's catalogue.



Read more: http://blogcritics.org/music/article...#ixzz14BsNMa7s

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Likewise, his vocal on the Holland, B./Dozier/Holland, E. tune “(I’m A) Road Runner” is out of place.

Does he mean that the vocal should have been as washed out, wimpy and forgettable as the backing musicians? Take Chris and the Bobs off and replace them with Jeremy and Danny or Peter, wake up John and Mick, place it with the "Mr Wonderful" tracks and it would have people raving about it. People going on (and on) about how Walker's songs "don't fit" on the album irritate me. So what, exactly?