Break Down of Kiln House

[snoot]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

CORRECTION: Christine's first Fleetwood Mac album as a session player was Mr. Wonderful. In fact, to date, the only Fleetwood Mac albums she's not on are Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac and Blues Jam Session At Chess/Fleetwood Mac In Chicago.

Do you know the extent of her involvement on Mr. Wonderful? I recall her unaccredited fills on keys on TPO, but do you know of any vocal backings prior to the KH sessions? If so, point them out!

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by snoot

Do you know the extent of her involvement on Mr. Wonderful? I recall her unaccredited fills on keys on TPO, but do you know of any vocal backings prior to the KH sessions? If so, point them out!

She only played organ or piano on any recording prior to "Kiln House". Check out the outtakes of "Need Your Love So Bad" from disc 3 (Pious Bird of Good Omen) of the Blue Horizon Sessions box set. There are several versions with Christine playing either organ or piano. I prefer the organ version because it's without strings.


Sorry about Mission Bell, I forgot that was Spencer who was singing.

[aleuzzi]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

CORRECTION: Christine's first Fleetwood Mac album as a session player was Mr. Wonderful. In fact, to date, the only Fleetwood Mac albums she's not on are Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac and Blues Jam Session At Chess/Fleetwood Mac In Chicago.

This is true. In fact, her presence on Mr. Wonderful is arguably more substantial than it is on Kiln House. Her piano playing on the Green tunes is inspired, even more so than her playing with Chicken Shack, I think, because she's interacting with better players.

[aleuzzi]

Originally Posted by snoot

Do you know the extent of her involvement on Mr. Wonderful? I recall her unaccredited fills on keys on TPO, but do you know of any vocal backings prior to the KH sessions? If so, point them out!

On Mr. Wonderful, she plays piano on all of the Peter Green compositions. (Jeremy, according to Mike Vernon and clear aural evidence) plays piano on his own tunes. So, she's directly involved with half the album. Her presence here is substantial.

On Then Play On, she plays piano on Coming Your Way--and possibly one or another tune.

On Need Your Love So Bad, she plays organ. There are several out takes of her trying the tune first on piano.

On Kiln House, she sings harmony on Station Man. I'm pretty sure she's the uncredited keyboardist on TMATTYD. I think Jeremy plays a more primitive piano on all the rest of the tunes.

She does not play at all on the Mac's first album, their Live in Chicago dates, or a number of their singles and early Danny compositions.

[snoot]

slipkid: She only played organ or piano on any recording prior to "Kiln House".

That's what I always thought. If there was some surprise vocal track somewhere I would have loved to discover it.

slipkid: Sorry about Mission Bell, I forgot that was Spencer who was singing.

Easy to do. In the higher register, he sounds amazingly similar to Kirwan.

aleuzzi: This is true. In fact, her presence on Mr. Wonderful is arguably more substantial than it is on Kiln House.

I never really knew the extent of it on MW, probably because I don't spin that one up as often as I should. And then of course Jeremy is always sneaking his hands on the keys, so there's inevitable confusion when you don't put an attentative ear to it. Remember Oh Well? I guess we can all be thankful compilation notes occasionally surface, though there's a shortage of them around my place.

Christy was such a talented blues pianist, I know the guys all admired her abilities, Green leading the pack.

aleuzzi: On Kiln House, she sings harmony on Station Man.

She sings on more than that.

aleuzzi: I'm pretty sure she's the uncredited keyboardist on TMATTYD. I think Jeremy plays a more primitive piano on all the rest of the tunes.

If that's not her on TMATTYD, I don't know who it is. Jeremy wasn't bad either though, I wouldn't call his playing primitive by any means. A completely different style than Christie's, with more honky tonk elements infused. Most of what we hear on KH is JS. That production is every bit as much his as Danny's, he really shines throughout. But it's to DK's credit he was reined in a bit, and didn't go off the mocksong deep end. As it was, he was perfectly measured. I often wish they did a follow up, with Christy fully credited, but Jeremy's heart just wasn't in it. Of course they were all apprehensive, borderline gloomy, as to a future without PG.

BTW CM would not have remained uncredited on that project except for contractual litigation [CS] going on at the time preventing it.

aleuzzi: Her piano playing on the Green tunes is inspired, even more so than her playing with Chicken Shack, I think, because she's interacting with better players.

Me thinks you're onto something here, for sure. Actually Chicken Shack is a pale comparison to what the Mac could deliver, there is no real comparison. Some back in the day used to call them Chicken ****, but that might be carrying it too far. More of that had to do with Stan Webb (the mumbler bumbler, king of "What's that Stan?") than Perfect. She was universally liked - and generally preferred. But Webbie could entertain, if nothing else. wOOt wOOt

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by snoot

Me thinks you're onto something here, for sure. Actually Chicken Shack is a pale comparison to what the Mac could deliver, there is no real comparison. Some back in the day used to call them Chicken ****, but that might be carrying it too far. More of that had to do with Stan Webb (the mumbler bumbler, king of "What's that Stan?") than Perfect. She was universally liked - and generally preferred. But Webbie could entertain, if nothing else. wOOt wOOt

In hindsight, I think adding Kirwan was an odd (though brilliant) decision. Christine would have, IMO, been the most obvious choice. Of course, if that HAD happened, I doubt the band would have made it to 1975.

[snoot]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

In hindsight, I think adding Kirwan was an odd (though brilliant) decision. Christine would have, IMO, been the most obvious choice. Of course, if that HAD happened, I doubt the band would have made it to 1975.

Totally agree, but that's to Peter and Mick's credit - and foresight. Pete was looking for support and additional bounce, and he found it in spades with Danny. Kirwan brought the best out in Green, just as PG elevated DK to new heights with his mentoring. It was a great duo, no way around it.

This isn't to shortchange Christine, as really she, John and Mick form the continuum throughout. A big part of the "consistency factor" is due to them always being there, on all the projects. But circa 1969 ~ 1970, Christie could not bring to the table what Danny could. He was the full package, a fuse fully lit and ready to take off (in more ways than one).

Danny also introduced harmony to Fleetwood Mac, which furthered heightened their shift from their purer blues-rock roots. Beyond his melodic lead vocals, listen closely to his voice pairings with Jeremy, with Christie, with Bob. It's all good. And on the guitar, his improvisational gifts and slick string bends aside, his sense of rhythm was second to none. As I see it, Green begat Kirwan, and Kirwan set the tone for the rest of Fleetwood Mac history, right up to the present. I see all the other players as adding to this ongoing evolution, substantially for sure, but he was the genesis of it all (and chops to Peter for letting that happen).

PS. There's a reason Danny got the FM HOF nod when Welch, Weston, Walker, Burnette, Vito, Mason and Bramlett didn't (but of course that's another story, as they ALL should have been included).

[BklynBlue]

Without going into all of the discrepancies in the each of the various "official" listings for the BBC recordings on August 26 & 27 (and the listings do not even agree that there were two dates!)
All of the listings, save one, for the session(s) do however show Christine Perfect participating in the recordings:
in Peter Lewry’s “Fleetwood Mac: The Complete Recording Sessions 1967 – 1992” , she is credited for keyboards only; in the discography included in Martin Celmins’ “Peter Green – The Biography”, the credit reads keyboards and vocals; in “In Session Tonight – The Complete Radio 1 Recordings” by Ken Garner, she is said to have only contributed vocals.
The liner notes to “Peter Green’s Fleetwood Mac Live at the BBC” (Castle 2001) list her simply as a “guest” on the three tracks taken from the sessions.
It is only Christopher Hjort’s “Strange Brew: The British Blues Boom 1965-1970” in which her name is not attached to the sessions.

None of the currently availabe tracks from the session(s) including bootlegs have any piano at all, with the exception of "Hawaiian Boogie" (it is heard in the opening bars and it is almost certainly Spencer playing) -
Of the unreleased titles, the most likely suspects would be Green's "If You Be My Baby" (she played on the studio original) or more intriguingly, "Crazy For My Baby" -
We are at at deceided disadvantage in not being able to actually hear the song, (the rather generic title does not make it any easier to identify) but it is possible that is Kirwan covering a Little Walter title here -
Could it be that this was a precusor to the post Green "Can't Hold Out Much Longer", Kirwan's radical rearrangement of another Little Walter song - and that Christine took the lead vocal on this number also?
It does seem strange that within a week of joining he would have found time to collaborate with Christine, (he must have known this would be a "one-off", unless there had been talks of her also joining the band....it would help to explain why the BBC archives have her listed on the session -

[aleuzzi]

Originally Posted by snoot

slipkid: [I]

aleuzzi: I'm pretty sure she's the uncredited keyboardist on TMATTYD. I think Jeremy plays a more primitive piano on all the rest of the tunes.

If that's not her on TMATTYD, I don't know who it is. Jeremy wasn't bad either though, I wouldn't call his playing primitive by any means. A completely different style than Christie's, with more honky tonk elements infused. Most of what we hear on KH is JS. That production is every bit as much his as Danny's, he really shines throughout. But it's to DK's credit he was reined in a bit, and didn't go off the mocksong deep end. As it was, he was perfectly measured. I often wish they did a follow up, with Christy fully credited, but Jeremy's heart just wasn't in it. Of course they were all apprehensive, borderline gloomy, as to a future without PG.

Jeremy could play a mean piano but he often intentionally went in for that primitive piano style, especially on MW. For what it's worth, I think it's him playing the excellent piano part on the BBC version of Honey Hush.

[snoot]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

Jeremy could play a mean piano but he often intentionally went in for that primitive piano style, especially on MW. For what it's worth, I think it's him playing the excellent piano part on the BBC version of Honey Hush.

Good point. Effective accenting - with admittedly a less than stellar chip or two along the way.

In fairness to JS, he often wondered where he stood once DK arrived. He became the odd man out in many ways. He also felt a three guitar front was overkill (he was right), so he looked to add where he could most effectively. His slide contros were good, but rarely rose above the din (though some provide key accents and hooks). That's why I'm glad we have Kiln House for posterity sake, with his legacy as a contributor to FM fully anchored. If not he would mostly be seen as a side player, a reluctant contributor, on the projects. His stage presence was something else, but even there he had ambivalent feelings, especially as time went on.

Christy was stage shy too. It was Welch who first took the point man to full measure, eventually as solo guitarist into the bargain. That wasn't easy. Those stage scenes sans Weston were good and tight, but it was a completely different vibe by that point. Folks often came expecting big guns and thunder, a two or even three guitar front as before (with some expecting Green himself!), and many were pretty much shell-shocked by this mellow, spacey, kicked back Welchian sound. At one concert I witnessed, Bob waved the whole band off the stage halfway into their set due to poor audience response, never to return. Of course it didn't help having a funk n boogie band before them, getting the crowd all pumped and lathered (name withheld to protect the innocent). Second rate one too.

[snoot]

Originally Posted by BklynBlue

All of the listings, save one, for the session(s) do however show Christine Perfect participating in the recordings:
in Peter Lewry’s “Fleetwood Mac: The Complete Recording Sessions 1967 – 1992” , she is credited for keyboards only;
in the discography included in Martin Celmins’ “Peter Green – The Biography”, the credit reads keyboards and vocals;
in “In Session Tonight – The Complete Radio 1 Recordings” by Ken Garner, she is said to have only contributed vocals.

Yeah it's kind of a mess, isn't it? The ever elusive "authorative" accounting.

The liner notes to “Peter Green’s Fleetwood Mac Live at the BBC” (Castle 2001) list her simply as a “guest” on the three tracks taken from the sessions.
It is only Christopher Hjort’s “Strange Brew: The British Blues Boom 1965-1970” in which her name is not attached to the sessions.

And but more confusion (grrrr). It's hard to reconstruct that kind of minutiae from the often less-than-sterling notes logged at the time. It's as much art as science to do it, especially after the fact.

None of the currently availabe tracks from the session(s) including bootlegs have any piano at all, with the exception of "Hawaiian Boogie" (it is heard in the opening bars and it is almost certainly Spencer playing)

And but more of the same... Now keep in mind, we're mostly talking about her participation on their originally released productions, and not as much the unissued, compilation, bootleg or live material.

Of the unreleased titles, the most likely suspects would be Green's "If You Be My Baby" (she played on the studio original) or more intriguingly, "Crazy For My Baby" -
We are at at deceided disadvantage in not being able to actually hear the song, (the rather generic title does not make it any easier to identify) but it is possible that is Kirwan covering a Little Walter title here -
Could it be that this was a precusor to the post Green "Can't Hold Out Much Longer", Kirwan's radical rearrangement of another Little Walter song - and that Christine took the lead vocal on this number also?

You tell me.

It does seem strange that within a week of joining he would have found time to collaborate with Christine, (he must have known this would be a "one-off", unless there had been talks of her also joining the band....it would help to explain why the BBC archives have her listed on the session.

Christine Perfect was a groupie of the band back then, a prim and proper one mind you. Since she could play the blues piano so well, the guys took to her quickly. Peter in particular saw her as an effective "fit" for the band, though only as a sideman. She also had an established name with her involvement in Chicken Shack. Christy seemed to work well with Danny initially too, he even writing, producing and arranging (strings) for her showcase single When You Say (at age 19) for her first solo album -- but it wasn't all smooth sailing as time went on. Strangely enough, Danny and Jeremy really hit it off well during the Kiln House project; their relationship was never better. And I think it shows.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by snoot

PS. There's a reason Danny got the FM HOF nod when Welch, Weston, Walker, Burnette, Vito, Mason and Bramlett didn't (but of course that's another story, as they ALL should have been included).

But, Danny's talent isn't why he was included. He was a member of one of the two incarnations that were inducted. Danny might not have written Albatross, Man Of The World, Oh Well, Rattlesnake Shake, or The Green Manalishi, but he played on those songs.

[snoot]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

But, Danny's talent isn't why he was included. He was a member of one of the two incarnations that were inducted. Danny might not have written Albatross, Man Of The World, Oh Well, Rattlesnake Shake, or The Green Manalishi, but he played on those songs.

Possibly - or perhaps "as stated" - but with the cherry picking they were doing, I almost expected him to be overlooked as well. After all, he was not in the initial incarnation of the band, coming to the fold a full year after the band's formation (and with two albums already notched successfully under their belts), so he could just as easily have been left in the induction dust. He had to be included because he helped bring Fleetwood Mac to their greatest early heights, and made such profound - and lasting - changes on that entity we call the Mac. [refer to your own quote above for further evidence, and that was just the start]

Beyond that, I for the life of me cannot figure out how or why the others were not included. Too many folks on stage to jam at once? Of course not, as we came to see! And why just two incarnations, as opposed to one, or maybe three? Pretty arbitrary from my distant perch. The greatest crime was the Bob Welch slight of course; that was beyond the pale. Moral of the story: don't ask or litigate for recompense! But it was a slight to all the others too. It's just one more reason the HOF = FOS.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by snoot

Possibly - or perhaps "as stated" - but with the cherry picking they were doing, I almost expected him to be overlooked as well. After all, he was not in the initial incarnation of the band, coming to the fold a full year after the band's formation (and with two albums already notched successfully under their belts), so he could just as easily have been left in the induction dust.

That's assuming they were being inducted for those two albums. I don't see it as such, nor do I see Kiln House was a part of the induction, even though the members of the band on all of those albums were inducted.

I see the induction as being more about Black Magic Woman through The Green Manalishi, which was the band's first heyday, which Danny was most certainly a part of. Still, Peter Green was the star. But there's really no way they could have just inducted Peter Green without the rest of the band, thus the induction included Jeremy and Danny (as it should).

He had to be included because he helped bring Fleetwood Mac to their greatest early heights, and made such profound - and lasting - changes on that entity we call the Mac. [refer to your own quote above for further evidence, and that was just the start]

You're overthinking it. Danny is in because he was a member of the band when they had a bunch of Peter Green hits. We, as fans know why he's great and how he impacted the band. The Hall folks don't care about that.

Beyond that, I for the life of me cannot figure out how or why the others were not included. Too many folks on stage to jam at once? Of course not, as we came to see! And why just two incarnations, as opposed to one, or maybe three? Pretty arbitrary from my distant perch. The greatest crime was the Bob Welch slight of course; that was beyond the pale. Moral of the story: don't ask or litigate for recompense! But it was a slight to all the others too. It's just one more reason the HOF = FOS.

Pretty simple, really. The others weren't on hit albums and didn't have big hit singles. No hits=no dice. Welch-era wasn't a hit. Burnette-era wasn't a hit. Great stuff. ESSENTIAL stuff. And, they SHOULD have been included.

[snoot]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

That's assuming they were being inducted for those two albums. I don't see it as such, nor do I see Kiln House was a part of the induction, even though the members of the band on all of those albums were inducted.

I never knew bands were considered on a per album basis. How is Kiln House or Future Games any less a Mac effort than any other release? Did Mr. Wonderful not pave the road for Then Play On, and that in turn for Kiln House, and that for etc <-> etc? If not, you're conveniently segregating and fencing projects, and that equates to cherry picking.

I see the induction as being more about Black Magic Woman through The Green Manalishi, which was the band's first heyday, which Danny was most certainly a part of. Still, Peter Green was the star. But there's really no way they could have just inducted Peter Green without the rest of the band, thus the induction included Jeremy and Danny (as it should).

Oh wait! I see what you're getting at now. The HOF is a Billboard Top 40 front. Ok, gotchya! More arbitrary, rose rimmed viewing and screening processes at work here? Now as I see it, Peter Green never reached heavenly Mac heights until Danny came aboard, star power notwithstanding [see that original quote of yours I cited earlier for more on this]

You're overthinking it. Danny is in because he was a member of the band when they had a bunch of Peter Green hits. We, as fans know why he's great and how he impacted the band. The Hall folks don't care about that.

It's wasn't the HOF directors' call, it was Fleetwood Mac's. The band could have engineered the induction prerequisites differently if they wanted to. No one held a gun to their collective head(s) on the matter.

Pretty simple, really. The others weren't on hit albums and didn't have big hit singles. No hits=no dice. Welch-era wasn't a hit. Burnette-era wasn't a hit. Great stuff. ESSENTIAL stuff. And, they SHOULD have been included.

Well we both agree it's great stuff, but if it was ESSENTIAL, then why didn't the "Big 5" insist they wanted the personnel behind it included? Welch was pissed to the wind because Mick and Chris were pissed at him! The HOF is NOT a Billboard Top 40 front. That is not the only prerequisite for inclusion. Now on the other hand, if it somehow has metamorphosed into this (and if it has, kindly point out where it's stated as such), then it really is FOS. In spades.

So tell me, how many Hit Singles did the Velvet Underground have? How the heck did they get in there, and before Fleetwood Mac made it?? No hits=no dice, right? Beyond hit singles, none of their album releases ever reached anywhere close to the 1970-1974 Mac releases per the charts. See what I mean by arbitrary?

Then there's the recent Dave Clark Five "bypass," unfairly bumped vote-wise in favor of a rap act! Only to be let in the following year, once the news of the behind-the-scene shenanigans broke. To their credit, at least the Sex Pistols (of all peeps) refused to attend the ceremony after they were inducted, calling the museum "a piss stain". Bloody right.

BTW I know where you stand, as we see eye to eye with basically everything sentiment-wise except who was behind the final decision-making. It boils down to this. If that stuffy board put it to Mick and the gang that less than the full cast were going to be inducted, they should have - and could have - said FORGET IT. And if they meant it, kissed their asses goodbye. But it would never have come to this.