Stevie's everywhere except in the studio.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by michelej1

According to the documentary, that wasn't Lindsey getting his wish. They both listened to samples from the two engineers and Stevie agreed on Needham.

I don't remember Stevie agreeing to Needham because she necessarily liked what he was doing. As I mentioned in my previous post (which I was writing before reading your reply), I remember Chris Lord-Alge's schedule getting filled and Stevie consenting to "Lindsey's guy." Not really a compromise if she felt she had no other choice.

Originally Posted by michelej1

As for the way the album was sequenced, Lindsey said he was the only one working while they were in Hawaii. Could be if they (Stevie and Mick) had been in Los Angeles at the time, they could have got the sequencing they wanted.

Does someone have to be in the same location to decide sequencing? Stevie's long claimed that she listened to the 'Rumours' tracks at home and then gave the band her sequencing. If Stevie had another running order in mind, and it sounds like she did, would it have really mattered if she were in LA?

Originally Posted by michelej1

As for the size of the album, the 18 song SYW was a compromise. Not as long as Lindsey wanted and not the regular album that Stevie wanted.

I've heard this mentioned before, but I still don't see 18 songs -- a 76 minute album -- as a "compromise" between a regular album and a double. How many more songs could Lindsey have wanted? 'Tusk' only had two more, and still had a shorter running time.

Originally Posted by michelej1

I don't buy the view that he trumped her on every count. It seems more like a compromise with both losing a little.

One side lost very little in those battles.

Originally Posted by michelej1

But is she tired of making those compromises? Probably. If so, then just don't work with him any more. Go get someone else to produce her songs and then just hand them to FM. Take it or leave it. That would be preferable to hold outs on either side.

Agreed. As I've said, I don't think any of this should be viewed as Stevie "holding out." If she's trying to decide where to record, and if she's trying to decide if she wants Lindsey or someone else to produce, at least she's on board in general. Logistics are logistics.

[elle]

Originally Posted by BlueDenimLamp

I hope they film the part where Stevie rents her own studio and brings the band in to record her songs with a producer of her own choosing...If Stevie is that dead set against recording then maybe the band should stop trying to pressure her into it because if she is forced into recording and is miserable during the whole process how good will the finished product be???

if she wants to be involved in the nostalgia part of that band only (which is also money-making part), they should get the album out without her.

of course, they told Christine she's out when she wanted to do just recording.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by BlueDenimLamp

I hope they film the part where Stevie rents her own studio and brings the band in to record her songs with a producer of her own choosing...If Stevie is that dead set against recording then maybe the band should stop trying to pressure her into it because if she is forced into recording and is miserable during the whole process how good will the finished product be???

The band should definitely not be trying to get Stevie to record with Lindsey as producer.

That should be the least of their worries right now. Lindsey went in to her lair and recorded Soldier's Angel and he can do that again on 3-4 songs, just to get an album out. In fact, since his ominousity is not needed by Stevie any longer, he doesn't even have to do the production work that he did on Soldier's Angel. Just go in there and sing and shut up.

Stevie said he did that once before with The Chain. She says he just went up there and sang it the way she told him, "for once in his life" he can do that again.

They have only signed up for 4 months of tour dates. The band wants a world tour. Stevie can refuse to sign up for more tour dates until they agree to records her songs the way she wants. Shouldn't be that hard.

Michele

[elle]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

One side lost very little in those battles

define "very little". is it defined by the amount one bickers in the media? he gave tons of his best songs to that album. didn't he also agree not to get paid for some of them? yes he's still proud of songs on that album (as he should be!), but does he really enjoy doing all the work and getting only constant bickering as a reward? i'll give in to you now because i care about you but you'll never hear the end of it in the media after that?? i don't know.

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

As I've said, I don't think any of this should be viewed as Stevie "holding out." If she's trying to decide where to record, and if she's trying to decide if she wants Lindsey or someone else to produce, at least she's on board in general. Logistics are logistics.

she had tons of time to decide that months ago, why start only now?

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Does someone have to be in the same location to decide sequencing?

You don't, but someone might have to be in Los Angeles to convince the record execs to go along with their ideas. You can have more influence in person than you can via telephone. Stevie knows this. That's why you can see her and Lindsey vying to influence the record executives when they are in the studio listening to SYW.

The record execs probably have to sign off on the sequencing and they decide what the first single is. If Lindsey is there pushing his side and the rest of the band is miles away, then of course his side is going to have more influence.

If she chose Needham because her guy didn't have time, that is not Lindsey forcing his desires on her.

As far as a double album goes, since we aren't using vinyl anymore, the SYW double album could have held way more songs than Tusk did. And, a double album may have given them the space to sequence the songs better (since you think this was such a loss for Stevie) and, perhaps, even break them up into themes for Disc 1 and Disc 2, so it would have been more cohesive.

At any rate, the 18-song SYW didn't come off as being such a coup for Lindsey in DR as you make it out to be. Michele

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by elle

define "very little".

Define "side.' I think the opinion of one side losing very little tends to vary, depending on what side you're on.

Michele

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Stevie did threaten. She threatened to only do a short tour. Lindsey realized he couldn't make any money if they only did a few tour dates and she used that leverage against him to get concessions.

Lindsey said, "if there's any chance even that Stevie were to have pulled out after 40 dates, I couldn't take the chance and do that."

It's very possible that she did threaten to do that, but we don't know with certainty that she did. Lindsey was definitely worried that she might, though. His scenario -- tour, do another album, tour -- in order to recoup his losses on releasing a double album, sure did require quite a gamble. It also placed a lot of expectations on his band-mates.

I need to re-watch parts of 'Destiny Rules' again, because I remember some of that argument differently.

Originally Posted by michelej1

As far as Stevie having nothing to do at this point, in the end maybe her absence right now won't have hurt anything at all. But I think people are not asking about damage at this stage. They are wondering why she's not recording. I don't think the answer to that is, "Well, they don't need her right now." That's not why she's not there. Although, certainly that may be all that matters in the end.

While I don't at all believe she's needed right now, that's not to say I believe it's the reason she's not there. My only argument is that there's no reason to stress about that fact, or to jump to the conclusion that Stevie's not "on board" with an album.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by elle

define "very little". is it defined by the amount one bickers in the media? he gave tons of his best songs to that album. didn't he also agree not to get paid for some of them? yes he's still proud of songs on that album (as he should be!), but does he really enjoy doing all the work and getting only constant bickering as a reward? i'll give in to you now because i care about you but you'll never hear the end of it in the media after that?? i don't know.

Lindsey agreed to not get paid on a certain amount of songs, if it were going to be a double-album. That has something to do with the way mechanical royalties are worked out, when you're both the songwriter and performer. When he feared that Stevie might not tour beyond 40 dates, he backed off. So, he most certainly did get paid for his eight songs.

Originally Posted by elle

she had tons of time to decide that months ago, why start only now?

Who said she only just started to decide? Plus, we don't know what's been decided in the weeks since those interviews were given.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

It's very possible that she did threaten to do that, but we don't know with certainty that she did. Lindsey was definitely worried that she might, though. His scenario -- tour, do another album, tour -- in order to recoup his losses on releasing a double album, sure did require quite a gamble.

The one tour, the tour that they actually did, was all he needed to recoup his losses on a double album. And they were planning to tour anyway. So, it wasn't putting added pressure on his bandmates. The only way they were not going to do a full tour is if he and Stevie could not get over their recording conflicts and she didn't sign on for the long tour that was already contemplated. It's not like he was expecting them to obligate their lives for 5 years to make up for the cost of one double album.

Yes, if they did another album (as he wanted after SYW) he would have wanted to tour after that, but that second album and tour were not related to making up his losses for a double album. I think it was just about making music and playing new music in concert.

Michele

[elle]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Who said she only just started to decide? Plus, we don't know what's been decided in the weeks since those interviews were given.

you.

all major decisions should be sorted out by now. and i hope they are. but yeah, we have no clue. this whole thread is a complete speculation. but fun nevertheless.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

Lindsey agreed to not get paid on a certain amount of songs, if it were going to be a double-album. That has something to do with the way mechanical royalties are worked out, when you're both the songwriter and performer. When he feared that Stevie might not tour beyond 40 dates, he backed off. So, he most certainly did get paid for his eight songs.

I don't know what the limit is, 12 or 10 tracks. I think 12. But Lindsey was planning to absorb the cost for SYW going over that limit and planned to make up the difference with the tour proceeds.

Michele

[elle]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Yes, if they did another album (as he wanted after SYW) he would have wanted to tour after that, but that second album and tour were not related to making up his losses for a double album. I think it was just about making music and playing new music in concert.

Michele

as he's been eager to do with FM ever since.

luckily for his solo fans and their finances, SN keeps putting a stop to that.

[michelej1]

Discussing tracks per album, that "controlled composition" clause is on a per album basis, not a per artist basis.

So, if the record company is only paying mechanical royalties on 10 songs, it's not 10 songs written by Lindsey, in addition to 10 songs written by Stevie. It's 10 songwriter/performer songs on the SYW album, period. Then, they don't get paid for songs in excess of 10, the record company deducts that excess amount from the royalties.

Michele

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by michelej1

The record execs probably have to sign off on the sequencing and they decide what the first single is. If Lindsey is there pushing his side and the rest of the band is miles away, then of course his side is going to have more influence.

I'm not discounting your point of view, but I don't believe I've ever heard an artist stating that the record company had any influence on their album's running order. They give other notes, sure. "I don't hear a single." "You need to go in another direction." But I don't think they'd say, "'Murrow' needs to follow 'Smile At You.'"

Originally Posted by michelej1

If she chose Needham because her guy didn't have time, that is not Lindsey forcing his desires on her.

If Lindsey dragged his feet to the point where she had no choice, what else is she going to do? As we've seen many times with this band, passive-aggressively is certainly one way to force your will on someone.

Originally Posted by michelej1

As far as a double album goes, since we aren't using vinyl anymore, the SYW double album could have held way more songs than Tusk did. And, a double album may have given them the space to sequence the songs better (since you think this was such a loss for Stevie) and, perhaps, even break them up into themes for Disc 1 and Disc 2, so it would have been more cohesive.

Off-topic, but I wonder how many more songs we'd have seen if there had been two discs. We know of course that "Not Make Believe" and "Love Minus Zero" were completed. And, in his 2003 Guitar World interview with Lindsey, Art Thompson mentioned "I Am Waiting" and "Gift Of Screws" as possible candidates when the unfinished album was previewed for him.

I'd love to know if there were additional Stevie tracks completed, and if any of the other 'GoS' recordings were in the running. Or if the double-album would have consisted of those 22 songs spread across two discs.

Originally Posted by michelej1

At any rate, the 18-song SYW didn't come off as being such a coup for Lindsey in DR as you make it out to be.

Still seemed a lot closer to his vision than anyone else's.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by michelej1

The one tour, the tour that they actually did, was all he needed to recoup his losses on a double album. And they were planning to tour anyway. So, it wasn't putting added pressure on his bandmates. The only way they were not going to do a full tour is if he and Stevie could not get over their recording conflicts and she didn't sign on for the long tour that was already contemplated. It's not like he was expecting them to obligate their lives for 5 years to make up for the cost of one double album.

Lindsey's exact quote was:

"The only reason I was willing to eat the kind of money that would have made the double-album possible, in terms of bringing the price down... I had to contemplate a scenario which would have been to do much more touring, to do another album and to do more touring after that."

Obviously the one tour was not going to be enough. He was going to need to tour longer than 40 dates, and do another album, and another tour.