New Gallup Poll: Kerry 50%, Bush 44%

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by ShangriLaTroubl

You are right Dissention...I will just have to decide who I think represents my beliefs the best--that will be tough..hopefully it will be more clear as the election comes closer...Maybe I will just check out Ralph Nadar lol

Chris

Yeah, there's a vote that's going to help clarify things.

[The Tower]

Originally Posted by ShangriLaTroubl

So then I think to myself...How could I vote for John Kerry who strongly supports Affirmative Action, and I strongly do not support it...IMO affirmative action is a form of discrimination...rather than moving forward, and treating people equal, we continue to set apart races...by forcing institutions to admit one race over another, simply because they have a quota they have to meet...It should be about qualifications.

This is a very simple opinion on a VERY complex issue. Maybe you might want to explore affirmative action a bit more before you allow it to sway your vote....

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by The Tower

This is a very simple opinion on a VERY complex issue. Maybe you might want to explore affirmative action a bit more before you allow it to sway your vote....

Not to mention W will never ever get rid of it no matter what he or anyone else says. So, I think this is a moot issue.

[MrBTH]

its interesting to read such threads as a foreigner... i'm an irishman living in Britain right now and I can honestly say that I know noone, absolutely noone who is in favour of the occupation of iraq. Please let John Kerry be sucessful in his attempt to turn the USA into a valid force for good as opposed to bush's laughing (tho dangerous) stock.

[ShangriLaTroubl]

Affirmative Action is a complex issue...but it's hard for me to agree with it. I've looked into it a lot actually---and I guess I'm living in a fantasy world to want everyone to be hired/admitted to colleges based on qualifications rather than race...I think this country has come so far in the race thing -- and to me affirmative action sets us back , by setting one race apart... In Georgia (a state with the lowest SAT scores) they were debating using SAT scores to determine HOPE Scholarship eligibility (for those who dont know what it is -- GA. Lottery Funds the HOPE scholarship, and any student in GA with a B Average or 3.0 can get their public college tuition paid for completely)...well HOPE is slowly running out of money...so they are trying to make higher qualifications for it....well the lawmakers decided that they couldnt use SAT scores because blacks have lower SAT Scores--and that would be unfair...and that is just totally pointless to me..Because blacks statistically in Georgia have the lowest SAT scores...using SAT scores would be unfair???

Maybe someone here can enlighten me on some positive points of affirmative action -- I haven't found any yet. Call it a simple opinion, but to consider race in college admissions is RACIST in my opinion...it should not even be a question on the application.

Chris

[The Tower]

Well. My take on affirmative action is this.

Minorities (I'll use that cheezy umbrella term to avoid offending on ethnicity over the other) have been so subjugated and disenfranchised for SO long, that I don't think 50 years since Brown vs. BOE is enough time to balance the scales.

One would think that race relations are just swell, considering all the legislation passed in (primarily) the 60's and all the advancements regarding tolerance, acceptance, blah, blah, blah. But, I just don't think that the U.S. is at the point where our general citizenry can be trusted to NOT screw over minorites just for the hell of it.

I don't think affirmative action is perfect, I don't think it's necessarily the best solution for the problem, but at the same time SOMETHING has to be continuously in place to have oversight on those who would reverse all that we've attained so far until a better solution comes along.

I think white dudes complaining about the fact that they can't get into the college of their choice because those that have been disenfranchised for soooo long get a "leg up" is pretty pathetic. The collegiate choices open to a white dude are much, much broader than a minority.

That "well I worked hard to get where I am, why should someone who achieved less than I did get to go in front of me" argument doesn't hold water. Yes, white dude Bob may have worked really hard to get his 3.9 gpa, but I'll betcha that black dude John had to work twice as hard to get his 3.4 gpa. And I'm not talking about working towards grades. If one has a better economic position, it's easier to concentrate on working towards scholastic achievement. If one comes from the poorer side of society, it's requires that much more diligence and hard work to equal the results of the better off.

I guess I just think it's a nice thing to do. For 200+ years, your people were enslaved and/or denied basic human rights. Well.... now we think you should get a jumpstart into all the things you couldn't previously have, which in turn will allow your descendants to finally BALANCE the equation- at which time, gov't oversight will end.

Sorry this got offtopic. Like Randi from Air America sez- "Liberal means that you're only as strong as your weakest link. When I was in the military, we all had to work to help the weakest in our division. We were all judged and reprimanded based on the one who did the worst. So, we helped that person become better until we were ALL better."

That's what democracy and free society means to me. Not greed, not intolerace, not government intruding on personal freedoms and desires. Life, liberty and the pursuit of f**cking happiness.

[ShangriLaTroubl]

Thanks "The Tower" some very good points you raised there...I never really thought too much about the economic position thing...and how that could affect one's ability to perform..

Chris

[strandinthewind]

Affirmative Action was created to give minorities a chance against the people then in the majority. The rationale was to correct the historic scenario that suggested people from minorites were discrimminated against in the workplace, education acceptance, etc. The problem about this rationale is not all people currently benefiting from Affirmative Action have had any direct and relevant discimmination (denial of acceptance, job, etc.) and/or their socio-economic backgrounds have allowed them more opportunities than caucasian applicants, etc. I mean, solely by way of hypothetical example, Denzel Washington's kid could apply for and get accepted over an impoverished caucasian child based on a system meant to correct wrongs of the past. Well, I think that scenario is wrong. I mean while Denzel Washington's kid may have been called racist names, that does not effect his chances of getting into college as much as an impoverished causian child. I think everyone agrees that this kid needs no financial or other help getting into school. So, I think the system needs to corrected to base the help given solely on socio-economic status and take all race out of the picture. I mean IMO (and I know others vehemently differ) the rationale behind Affirmative Action applying solely based on race is over. But, anytime anyone dares to question it, they are branded a racist tantamount to the KKK - which is just wrong IMO

Also, people abuse the system. I used this example awhile back. A friend of mine has a distant but direct relative that he never knew whose race qualified him for not only college acceptance but for a scholarship. So, he, who BTW is already weathly, took the deal. AND it was perfectly legal. He was not alone in that boat. So - I say - it ought to based on financial need. But and again, that will never happen because the perception is that white people still rule the world and that white people want to screw black people over and in every way and at every opportunity. I personally think we as a nation have eveolved significantly past that, although it certainly still happens.

Finally, every rich minority kid I went to grade school with (about 15 in my class of 80 - I went to a costly school) took advantage of minority based scholarships and acceptance, when none of them needed either. So, clearly greed and all that is a two way street.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

I want to support a candidate that endorses mandatory vasectomies for all men of a certain age...and party preference.

I just spewed my beverage, doll!!!!!!

[dissention]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Not to mention W will never ever get rid of it no matter what he or anyone else says. So, I think this is a moot issue.

Because he doesn't want to sacrifice the four black supporters he has. A vote is a vote, after all.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by The Tower

Like Randi from Air America sez- "Liberal means that you're only as strong as your weakest link. When I was in the military, we all had to work to help the weakest in our division. We were all judged and reprimanded based on the one who did the worst. So, we helped that person become better until we were ALL better."

Awwwwwwww, you quoted Randi. That deserves a from me. Have you tried to win the waffle iron yet?

And I just ordered my Randi Rhodes bookbag and coffee mug last night.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by ShangriLaTroubl

Kerry flip flops too much. I can't trust him.
Chris

Have some waffles:

http://www.americanprogress.org/site...RJ8OVF&b=42263

President Bush: Flip-Flopper-In-Chief

March 31, 2004
Download: DOC, RTF, PDF

From the beginning, George W. Bush has made his own credibility a central issue. On 10/11/00, then Governor Bush said: "I think credibility is important. It is going to be important for the president to be credible with Congress, important for the president to be credible with foreign nations." But President Bush's serial flip-flopping raises serious questions about whether Congress and foreign leaders can rely on what he says.

1. Department of Homeland Security

BUSH OPPOSES THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY..."So, creating a Cabinet office doesn't solve the problem. You still will have agencies within the federal government that have to be coordinated. So the answer is that creating a Cabinet post doesn't solve anything." [White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, 3/19/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY "So tonight, I ask the Congress to join me in creating a single, permanent department with an overriding and urgent mission: securing the homeland of America and protecting the American people." [President Bush, Address to the Nation, 6/6/02]

2. Weapons of Mass Destruction

BUSH SAYS WE FOUND THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION..."We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories…for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them." [President Bush, Interview in Poland, 5/29/03]

...BUSH SAYS WE HAVEN'T FOUND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION "David Kay has found the capacity to produce weapons. And when David Kay goes in and says we haven't found stockpiles yet, and there's theories as to where the weapons went. They could have been destroyed during the war. Saddam and his henchmen could have destroyed them as we entered into Iraq. They could be hidden. They could have been transported to another country, and we'll find out." [President Bush, Meet the Press, 2/7/04]

3. Free Trade

BUSH SUPPORTS FREE TRADE... "I believe strongly that if we promote trade, and when we promote trade, it will help workers on both sides of this issue." [President Bush in Peru, 3/23/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS RESTRICTIONS ON TRADE "In a decision largely driven by his political advisers, President Bush set aside his free-trade principles last year and imposed heavy tariffs on imported steel to help out struggling mills in Pennsylvania and West Virginia, two states crucial for his reelection." [Washington Post, 9/19/03]

4. Osama Bin Laden

BUSH WANTS OSAMA DEAD OR ALIVE... "I want justice. And there's an old poster out West, I recall, that says, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive.'" [President Bush, on Osama Bin Laden, 09/17/01]

...BUSH DOESN'T CARE ABOUT OSAMA "I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care. It's not that important." [President Bush, Press Conference, 3/13/02]

5. The Environment

BUSH SUPPORTS MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE... "[If elected], Governor Bush will work to…establish mandatory reduction targets for emissions of four main pollutants: sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxide, mercury and carbon dioxide." [Bush Environmental Plan, 9/29/00]

...BUSH OPPOSES MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE "I do not believe, however, that the government should impose on power plants mandatory emissions reductions for carbon dioxide, which is not a 'pollutant' under the Clean Air Act." [President Bush, Letter to Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE), 3/13/03]

6. WMD Commission

BUSH RESISTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE... "The White House immediately turned aside the calls from Kay and many Democrats for an immediate outside investigation, seeking to head off any new wide-ranging election-year inquiry that might go beyond reports already being assembled by congressional committees and the Central Intelligence Agency." [NY Times, 1/29/04]

...BUSH SUPPORTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE "Today, by executive order, I am creating an independent commission, chaired by Governor and former Senator Chuck Robb, Judge Laurence Silberman, to look at American intelligence capabilities, especially our intelligence about weapons of mass destruction." [President Bush, 2/6/04]

7. Creation of the 9/11 Commission

BUSH OPPOSES CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION... "President Bush took a few minutes during his trip to Europe Thursday to voice his opposition to establishing a special commission to probe how the government dealt with terror warnings before Sept. 11." [CBS News, 5/23/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION "President Bush said today he now supports establishing an independent commission to investigate the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks." [ABC News, 09/20/02]

8. Time Extension for 9/11 Commission

BUSH OPPOSES TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION... "President Bush and House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) have decided to oppose granting more time to an independent commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks." [Washington Post, 1/19/04]

...BUSH SUPPORTS TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION "The White House announced Wednesday its support for a request from the commission investigating the September 11, 2001 attacks for more time to complete its work." [CNN, 2/4/04]

9. One Hour Limit for 9/11 Commission Testimony

BUSH LIMITS TESTIMONY IN FRONT OF 9/11 COMMISSION TO ONE HOUR... "President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney have placed strict limits on the private interviews they will grant to the federal commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks, saying that they will meet only with the panel's top two officials and that Mr. Bush will submit to only a single hour of questioning, commission members said Wednesday." [NY Times, 2/26/04]

...BUSH SETS NO TIMELIMIT FOR TESTIMONY "The president's going to answer all of the questions they want to raise. Nobody's watching the clock." [White House spokesman Scott McClellan, 3/10/04]

10. Gay Marriage

BUSH SAYS GAY MARRIAGE IS A STATE ISSUE... "The state can do what they want to do. Don't try to trap me in this state's issue like you're trying to get me into." [Gov. George W. Bush on Gay Marriage, Larry King Live, 2/15/00]

...BUSH SUPPORTS CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT BANNING GAY MARRIAGE "Today I call upon the Congress to promptly pass, and to send to the states for ratification, an amendment to our Constitution defining and protecting marriage as a union of man and woman as husband and wife." [President Bush, 2/24/04]

11. Nation Building

BUSH OPPOSES NATION BUILDING... "If we don't stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, then we're going to have a serious problem coming down the road." [Gov. George W. Bush, 10/3/00]

...BUSH SUPPORTS NATION BUILDING "We will be changing the regime of Iraq, for the good of the Iraqi people." [President Bush, 3/6/03]

12. Saddam/al Qaeda Link

BUSH SAYS IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEEN AL QAEDA AND SADDAM... "You can't distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror." [President Bush, 9/25/02]

...BUSH SAYS SADDAM HAD NO ROLE IN AL QAEDA PLOT "We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved in Sept. 11." [President Bush, 9/17/03]

13. U.N. Resolution

BUSH VOWS TO HAVE A UN VOTE NO MATTER WHAT... "No matter what the whip count is, we're calling for the vote. We want to see people stand up and say what their opinion is about Saddam Hussein and the utility of the United Nations Security Council. And so, you bet. It's time for people to show their cards, to let the world know where they stand when it comes to Saddam." [President Bush 3/6/03]

...BUSH WITHDRAWS REQUEST FOR VOTE "At a National Security Council meeting convened at the White House at 8:55 a.m., Bush finalized the decision to withdraw the resolution from consideration and prepared to deliver an address to the nation that had already been written." [Washington Post, 3/18/03]

14. Involvement in the Palestinian Conflict

BUSH OPPOSES SUMMITS... "Well, we've tried summits in the past, as you may remember. It wasn't all that long ago where a summit was called and nothing happened, and as a result we had significant intifada in the area." [President Bush, 04/05/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS SUMMITS "If a meeting advances progress toward two states living side by side in peace, I will strongly consider such a meeting. I'm committed to working toward peace in the Middle East." [President Bush, 5/23/03]

15. Campaign Finance

BUSH OPPOSES MCCAIN-FEINGOLD... "George W. Bush opposes McCain-Feingold...as an infringement on free expression." [Washington Post, 3/28/2000]

...BUSH SIGNS MCCAIN-FEINGOLD INTO LAW "[T]his bill improves the current system of financing for Federal campaigns, and therefore I have signed it into law." [President Bush, at the McCain-Feingold singing ceremony, 03/27/02]



Need more syrup?

[DeeGeMe]

Oh thank you sweetie for posting that. I've got some Repug thugs on another board I frequent-which has nothing to do with politics but suddenly has become a "We love Bush" forum and I'm going to post this and get their blood boiling.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by DeeGeMe

Oh thank you sweetie for posting that. I've got some Repug thugs on another board I frequent-which has nothing to do with politics but suddenly has become a "We love Bush" forum and I'm going to post this and get their blood boiling.

Hehe. There's more if you need it. Let me know.