Unbelievable

[CarneVaca]

With all due respect, saying that Affirmative Action discriminates against white males is a crock. Plain and simple. I'll start to take conservatives seriously on Affirmative Action when they stop using coded language to disguise racism. "States' rights" anyone?

Affirmative Action exists to correct a historic wrong. That is not a trivial thing. And if it weren't for this historic wrong, you wouldn't have as many minority kids growing up in desperate poverty. So should those kids continue to pay and be denied opportunity because a handful of white suburban kids might not get into the college of their choice? Hell, just send them to their second-choice college. They can deal.

Scores of black and Latino kids are growing up in neighborhoods where opportunity is scarce or nonexistent. If they have lower grades than a white applicant, is it because they had to contend with social, monetary and family pressures the white suburban kid didn't experience? Or is it because the inner-city minority kid is less capable? I'll let you answer that question. Of course white suburban kids have their issues, but to begin to understand why Affirmative Action is necessary we must make an effort to put ourselves in the shoes of the less fortunate.

And don't give me that crap about anyone can succeed in this country. That simply is unrealistic. Though we still do pretty good in the good ole US of A, too many people are falling by the wayside.

As for the issue of illegal immigrants. I say give them all the benefits we enjoy (which are dwindling daily anyway, courtesy of the corporate-sponsored greedy Republicans in Washington). Illegal immigrants will always be drawn to this country. And as long as greedy employers continue to hire them for ****ty wages, they will keep coming.

I say grant them amnesty, give them a decent wage and send them off to college under Affirmative Action. Then we'll start to see some justice.

[dissention]

Originally posted by Rob67
First, I don't believe illegal immigrants should be given anything. They are ILLEGAL. I completely disagree with giving benefits to immigrants who come here illegally. But in regards to legal aliens, no one is forcing anyone else to work in this country. A legal alien can easily go to McDonalds and make 6-7 dollars an hour, they hire anyone. Would I clean toilets for $2 and hour? Would You?? No, but if someone will, more power to them. That is their CHOICE.

So, based on that logic, should we just abolish minimum wages? Let the employers dictate how much they want to pay? And if they decide on paying all of their employees $2.75 an hour, should we just turn our heads and say 'Tough tacos, they chose to work there.'?

[Rob67]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
And don't give me that crap about anyone can succeed in this country. That simply is unrealistic. Though we still do pretty good in the good ole US of A, too many people are falling by the wayside.

As for the issue of illegal immigrants. I say give them all the benefits we enjoy (which are dwindling daily anyway, courtesy of the corporate-sponsored greedy Republicans in Washington). Illegal immigrants will always be drawn to this country. And as long as greedy employers continue to hire them for ****ty wages, they will keep coming.

I say grant them amnesty, give them a decent wage and send them off to college under Affirmative Action. Then we'll start to see some justice.

I disagree, anyone CAN succeed in this country. Do you know that it is easier for an immigrant to get a small business loan in this country to start a business then it is for a citizen? You are right, life is not fair and we are all dealt a different hand to deal with.

I completely disagree with supporting illegal immigration. I cannot agree with the rationalization of your last two paragraphs. EVERY politician is "corporate-sponsored" in Washington.

I'll just stand at the border and hand over my paycheck...

We just have to agree to disagree....

Rob

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by Rob67
I disagree, anyone CAN succeed in this country. Do you know that it is easier for an immigrant to get a small business loan in this country to start a business then it is for a citizen? You are right, life is not fair and we are all dealt a different hand to deal with.
I

Funny you should mention that. Back in the 80's when you were still in grade school, a guy named Neil BUSH was getting an awful lot of SBA loans in the state of Wyoming. They were being handed out through Silverado Banking. Guess what? The companies all folded and those government backed loans were paid by guess who? And guess what happened to Silverado, a company that Neil Bush was heavily mixed up in? I was talking to a client of mine yesterday, who is a Hispanic woman. She was trying to get a government backed loan (SBA) at the same Neil Bush was and guess what? You get the picture now. She didn't get it. Poppy's boy did. Since the inception of the Patriot Act, it has in fact been more difficult for immigrants to get government backed loans.

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by Rob67
Good news on the Job front!

Rob

Not necessarily:

http://www.lioninc.com/L/lion_market_commentary1

"Not all of the claims data was bullish. Continuing claims rose by 81,000 to 3.315 million in the week of December 20 (continuing claims must be at least a week old) from 3.234 million the week before."

[gldstwmn]

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/31/op...31WED4.html?th

The Budget Politics of Being Poor

[Rob67]

Originally posted by dissention
So, based on that logic, should we just abolish minimum wages? Let the employers dictate how much they want to pay? And if they decide on paying all of their employees $2.75 an hour, should we just turn our heads and say 'Tough tacos, they chose to work there.'?

Not at this point, we can't. I do think that a minimum wage is a Catch 22 that has valid pros and cons. I just think that the skill level and market should influence the worth of a job. Supply and demand, if you will.

You could look at the unions who grossly overpay for menial labor jobs (see PennDOT) as part of this problem, on the other end of the spectrum. I mean, the guy who holds the "stop\slow" roadsign makes almost $20.00 on a road crew. WTF.
You could cut that guy's salary in half and support two people.

But that's a whole other discussion....

Rob

[Rob67]

Originally posted by gldstwmn
Funny you should mention that. Back in the 80's when you were still in grade school

Ahhh....the true left....

Rob

[dissention]

Originally posted by Rob67
You could cut that guy's salary in half and support two people.

Read 'Nickel and Dimed.'

[gldstwmn]

Originally posted by Rob67
Ahhh....the true left....

Rob

Insightful.

[Rob67]

Originally posted by dissention
Read 'Nickel and Dimed.'

You mean after some of these glowing reviews???

"If good writing is something that makes you react, then this book is great writing .... er,I guess ...because it made me alternately furious and irritated. Most of the criticism I long to deliver has already been given in greater detail and more eloquently in the "Have your quiche and eat it, too" review - but I will add this: the author makes ONE [and only one] excellent point, and makes it repeatedly: the lack of affordable housing at the lower end of the economic scale is a disgrace in a country as affluent as ours, and by consuming such a high percentage of the net take-home pay of the minimum-wage worker, poor housing condemns him/her to remain a renter, not an owner, because he/she can never seem to accumulate enough capital to get a few steps ahead - a long term lease on a decent apartment or a down payment and mortgage on some thing permanent. There are many possible solutions to this problem, but the author never pauses in her self-centered litany of backaches and toilet-bowl brushes to consider them.

Ms. Ehrenreich's basic scenario is true: a single, unskilled worker with very little money and no friends, family or ties in a community arrives and tries to "start up" a decent life - and it's terribly hard - but the book presents at least one possible source of aid which Ms. Ehrenreich obviously disdains [the African-American aunt who says " find a church - you always find a church" and tells how church members drove her to a food bank the first day].
In spite of reminding us various times about her Ph.d in Biology and her daughter at Harvard she is absolutely vitriolic [Envy? Hate? Class warfare?] toward the homeowners of the houses she has to clean - their square-footage, their decorative copper pots, their balsamic vinegar and olive oil - she seems to long to take all large-home-owners out and line them up against the garden wall.... Whose houses did she think she was going to be hired to clean?

The bottom line is this: the author never lived the life she was supposed to be investigating for more than a week or two - and she took breaks between the three skimpy months that she "worked" for minimum wage -- a lot of each month was spent job hunting or housing hunting, she failed to get anything in writing during interviews, she marched off jobs the minute the going got very tough, sometimes she didn't even bother to resign, just gave her uniforms to a co-worker to turn in, blew off a better-paying job that she had already landed because she had drunk coffee the day before and was just "too exhausted" to report to work the first day, complains endlessly about the drug tests and how she had to pay $30 for medicine to eliminate the results of her own illegal drug use, so she could pass the test. Frankly, she lacked the common sense [splurging on $11 "burger and a glass of wine" dinners when she really needs to conserve money -- not much ingenuity about cooking for herself] and the tenacity needed to start at the bottom and stick with it as a truly desperate person would simply have to do. Simply put, she was the kind of "flaky" worker who rarely gets ahead, and whom co-workers and supervisors learn not to count on, no matter what her academic pedigree might be."

and

"After extensive study and field investigation, Barbara Ehrenreich came to a conclusion that the lower 95% of the population have always known: Starting from scratch aint easy. The only people who might be enlightned by this book are other self-rightous, liberal, elitist brats who have never punched a time card or bothered to stop and talk to the "underclass".

Reportedly, her next book will be entitled "Fat and Ugly: (not) Getting Laid in America."

I can't wait to be enlightened. "


One of my good friends has no high school education and has been living on his own since he was 16, working minimum wage jobs. Sometimes he would work 80 hour weeks for months at a time, but, during that time he didn't become complacent in his position and took the necessary steps to improve his life. He isn't rich but he is making a living and living life to the fullest that he knows.

What are the book's solutions for Poverty?

Rob

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by Rob67
I just think that the skill level and market should influence the worth of a job. Supply and demand, if you will.

You could look at the unions who grossly overpay for menial labor jobs (see PennDOT) as part of this problem, on the other end of the spectrum.

Menial laborists are "grossly overpaid"?
Exactly how tough is it for all of those white-collar, upper-management pencil-pushers, who sit in climate-controlled offices every day?
If anyone is "grossly overpaid," they are.

The man or woman who stands on the road and holds the "Stop/Slow" sign, has to do so while being exposed to varying weather conditions, and at the risk of personal injury.

I'm not saying it's the most "important" job around, but it's a necessity, and not a job that many people would want to be doing.

I say if someone is jealous of that 20 bucks an hour, they should go apply for the job.

[Rob67]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Menial laborists are "grossly overpaid"?
Exactly how tough is it for all of those white-collar, upper-management pencil-pushers, who sit in climate-controlled offices every day?
If anyone is "grossly overpaid," they are.

The man or woman who stands on the road and holds the "Stop/Slow" sign, has to do so while being exposed to varying weather conditions, and at the risk of personal injury.

I'm not saying it's the most "important" job around, but it's a necessity, and not a job that many people would want to be doing.

I say if someone is jealous of that 20 bucks an hour, they should go apply for the job.

It's got nothing to do with jealousy from my point of view..I am all for making as much money as you can. That is part of the American dream. But ANYONE could do that job...

I know what the "stop\slow" sign job entails and I know I could do it easily. I also know that there are some "white-collar, upper-management pencil-pushers, who sit in climate-controlled offices" that have extreme workloads and responsibilities.

Comparing the two are apples and oranges especially if you generalize "white-collar workers" and compare them to a particular profession.

Rob

[Rob67]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
Menial laborists are "grossly overpaid"?

I didn't say that...

I said, look at the unions who grossly overpay for menial jobs.

Rob

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by Rob67
One of my good friends has no high school education and has been living on his own since he was 16, working minimum wage jobs. Sometimes he would work 80 hour weeks for months at a time, but, during that time he didn't become complacent in his position and took the necessary steps to improve his life. He isn't rich but he is making a living and living life to the fullest that he knows.

I feel for your friend, and it's great that he's making a (hopefully) decent living.

But the intimation is, that someone who hasn't had the benefit of a high school or college education, must work 80 hour weeks, etc., in order to deserve whatever success they have.

I realize that you're really only trying to say that "hard work pays off," but why should someone have to work inhuman hours, probably in physically demanding jobs, and probably at the expense of their families and at the risk of their health, just because they didn't have the benefit of a better education?

It's as if it's being said that people should be somehow penalized for not graduating high school and/or going to college.

Mind you, I'm not saying that anyone should just be handed a cushy life... but for those of us who "have it good," what's wrong with trying to help people on their feet?

Welfare... Affirmative Action... anything can, and will be, abused... but we can't just wipe our hands of it, and say, "well, I earned the money I'm making, so they don't deserve any help."