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  #76  
Old 05-22-2018, 07:48 PM
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TheWildHeart67 TheWildHeart67 is offline
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WildHeart67, that was from the song Thrown Down, right? What is the line in question that they were discussing in the documentary, do you remember?
He said the tense of the line, "now you're going home," should be worded "Now he's going home." He said it's a rule of thumb to not change your tense back and forth in a song.
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  #77  
Old 05-22-2018, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by TheWildHeart67 View Post
He said the tense of the line, "now you're going home," should be worded "Now he's going home." He said it's a rule of thumb to not change your tense back and forth in a song.
Thanks, WildHeart!
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  #78  
Old 05-22-2018, 09:16 PM
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She wanted Lindsey to treat her like everyone else treats her (kiss her ass), which is something he would never do, especially someone he’s known since they were teenagers, let alone was an ex.
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  #79  
Old 05-22-2018, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by TheWildHeart67 View Post
He said the tense of the line, "now you're going home," should be worded "Now he's going home." He said it's a rule of thumb to not change your tense back and forth in a song.
He and you aren't different tenses. He is third person and you is second person. They can both be used in a song if the songwriter is describing different people or viewing the same individual from different vantage points which is acceptable writing technique in some situations. I can see Lindsey's point but I side with Stevie on this one.
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  #80  
Old 05-22-2018, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Sugar Mouse View Post
He and you aren't different tenses. He is third person and you is second person. They can both be used in a song if the songwriter is describing different people or viewing the same individual from different vantage points which is acceptable writing technique in some situations. I can see Lindsey's point but I side with Stevie on this one.
I don't think it's a big deal, but I've seen this referenced a lot on this board, as if somehow it mirrors their relationship or has some significant meaning. Lindsey pointed out something about the song to Stevie, she declined his suggestion, and that was it. I don't think most producers focus on lyrics, they usually just record the song, but I have no problem with Lindsey pointing out the seeming error... just like I have no problem with Stevie keeping the song as it was. Thrown Down is my favorite song on Say You Will. I was there for opening night of this tour and I was pleasantly surprised at how many songs they did perform from SYW, but also disappointed they didn't perform Thrown Down. IIRC, FM cut a few of the new songs early on, but I feel like they sang 7 or 8 initially.
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  #81  
Old 05-22-2018, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Sugar Mouse View Post
He and you aren't different tenses. He is third person and you is second person. They can both be used in a song if the songwriter is describing different people or viewing the same individual from different vantage points which is acceptable writing technique in some situations. I can see Lindsey's point but I side with Stevie on this one.
Lindsey didn't call them tenses, and he was referring to the fact that Stevie was changing from third to first/second person throughout the song even though she was talking about the same individuals; the shift of person was abrupt and there was no logic behind it. As an English prof, I side with Lindsey.

It's this line that's really confusing:

"You can sit outside his door and wait; you can dedicate your pain to him" - until that point, "you" had referred to the guy in lines like "you've shaken my faith." Now all of the sudden, "you" is presumably Stevie, unless she's referring to a third party! Then the next verse it's "him/her" and the yous have disappeared entirely.... etc. etc.

(Lyrics)
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Last edited by sodascouts : 05-22-2018 at 10:35 PM.
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  #82  
Old 05-23-2018, 12:29 AM
dontlookdown dontlookdown is offline
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Originally Posted by mitzo View Post
I guess we just keep pouring venom on the remaining members of the band and worshipping the fired saint, a former abuser of women with anger issues, who wanted to make another FM album which would have been heavily loaded with his own woefully unpopular solo songs which ruined the last several albums and made sales mediocre.
Couldn't disagree more.
I don't judge work based on sales. I judge it based on creativity and songwriting strength.
Seeds We Sow is Lindsey's strongest album since Out of The Cradle. I thought it was near-perfect.
The EP was great too, thanks to Lindsey.
I also think the weakest songs on Say You Will were all Stevie's.
"Silver Girl", "Running Through Garden" (ouch), "Goodbye Baby" (ouch again).
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  #83  
Old 05-23-2018, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by BigAl84 View Post
Lindsey is out.

One interview with rolling stone.

Ticket sales are not exactly stellar.

Tour doesn't start for 5 months.

Radio Silence.


Not sure I understand their premise.

They need to up their game if they want to sell this "new band"
I'm guessing that at age 70 +, they probably don't feel like they need a premise.
There will be a lot more press once rehearsals start. Probably a bunch of video content for the web and social media. Right now they're using Sirius XM to help present the band's history. That'll go away and will be replaced by something else during the summer and then in the Fall we'll start seeing more PR.
I won't be surprised if they record a song or two.
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  #84  
Old 05-23-2018, 04:45 AM
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It was person AND tense. He originally suggested “He was going home.” Then he compromised with suggestion “Now he’s going home.” She held her ground and said he couldn’t make these recommendations to Bob Dylan. He said he couldn’t not bring it up especially since this was less abstract a song than Dylan would in these circumstances.
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  #85  
Old 05-23-2018, 07:26 AM
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TheWildHeart67 TheWildHeart67 is offline
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Quote:
Lindsey didn't call them tenses
I just watched it last night. He called them tenses. Go rewatch
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  #86  
Old 05-23-2018, 08:27 AM
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Seems things are getting a little tense!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWildHeart67 View Post
I just watched it last night. He called them tenses. Go rewatch
I rewatched, and he seems to mention both explicitly, albeit in the vaguest of terms anyway.

Lindsey: "..the tense and the person..."

He seems to be speaking in a deliberately vague/trepidatious/deferential manner in order to get his point across with as little ego damage as possible; no luck though, because Stevie is glaring at him before he's even made his point (if the editing of the documentary makers is to be believed).

What always frustrated me about this "scene" is that Lindsey clearly does not enjoy giving her 'notes' (who would?), so for him to make a point of this I believe means that he really liked Thrown Down and felt the potential for it to be a hit or a well-regarded song that he could contribute to fine-tuning. We don't know whether he gave much or any advice about the lyrics in, say, Silver Girl, but my assumption is that he probably recognized that one as lacking hit potential and saved his battles. My point being: I wish Stevie had registered this compliment, rather than seeming so defensive about it. But I think Lindsey's approach was lacking, too; I think what he should have bothered to do was rework the lyrics to his liking, record it himself, and then let her hear that at least. If she's such a poet, she is more likely to be swayed by hearing an actual musical performance than listening to a vague and abstract grammar lecture.
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Last edited by DownOnRodeo : 05-23-2018 at 08:33 AM.
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  #87  
Old 05-23-2018, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by DownOnRodeo View Post
Seems things are getting a little tense!



I rewatched, and he seems to mention both explicitly, albeit in the vaguest of terms anyway.

Lindsey: "..the tense and the person..."
Exactly. He doesn't call the "you/me/him" etc. tenses. However, I can see how it would be confusing for people because he does talk about the tense as well, and I apologize for not acknowledging that. I had indeed forgotten verb tense was also a part of the conversation.

Quote:
He seems to be speaking in a deliberately vague/trepidatious/deferential manner in order to get his point across with as little ego damage as possible; no luck though, because Stevie is glaring at him before he's even made his point (if the editing of the documentary makers is to be believed).

What always frustrated me about this "scene" is that Lindsey clearly does not enjoy giving her 'notes' (who would?), so for him to make a point of this I believe means that he really liked Thrown Down and felt the potential for it to be a hit or a well-regarded song that he could contribute to fine-tuning. We don't know whether he gave much or any advice about the lyrics in, say, Silver Girl, but my assumption is that he probably recognized that one as lacking hit potential and saved his battles. My point being: I wish Stevie had registered this compliment, rather than seeming so defensive about it. But I think Lindsey's approach was lacking, too; I think what he should have bothered to do was rework the lyrics to his liking, record it himself, and then let her hear that at least. If she's such a poet, she is more likely to be swayed by hearing an actual musical performance than listening to a vague and abstract grammar lecture.
This part always frustrates me as well; he is obviously trying SO HARD not to offend her, yet she acts like he's being absolutely AWFUL to her! As if he's insulting her SO BADLY! And she obviously truly believes he was being horrific to her, because she plays this clip again and again as evidence of how difficult he was to work with (especially highlighting it in the In Your Dreams documentary). She fully expects viewers to be shocked and appalled by his treatment of her. She has no idea how ridiculous it makes her look that this is her example of what a monster Lindsey is in the studio.

It shows how she has become completely incapable of handling even the gentlest of constructive criticism. This is what comes when you surround yourself with sycophants and become accustomed to nothing but praise, even when you are writing less than stellar material. You surround yourself with people who tell you that everything you do is great, and when anyone tells you differently - no matter how tactfully - that person is not only in the wrong, but terribly cruel. She gets "Yes, Stevie" constantly from her entourage and endless adulation from her fans; little wonder that eventually, she decides to cut the one person who doesn't always say "Yes, Stevie" out of her life in order to ensure her "happiness."

Imagine if she had been like this when Lindsey was helping her with her work in the past? Anyone who's listened to her demos knows that if she had told Lindsey "How DARE you tell me Gypsy is repetitive - you wouldn't say that to Bob Dylan" then it would have been crappy. However, with his help, it is my favorite song.

This kind of attitude is how we get "Lady", which is the same song twice over with almost no variety. Dave Stewart: "It's incredible as it is, Stevie! No need to change a thing from your demo! You don't need to add another verse! You fart gold! 24 Karat Gold!"

Sometimes you need to be upset if you want to face your imperfections and improve yourself. I think she's removed herself from reality, to her own detriment. I hope somebody can help her see this before it's too late.
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Last edited by sodascouts : 05-23-2018 at 11:04 AM.
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  #88  
Old 05-23-2018, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by sodascouts View Post
This kind of attitude is how we get "Lady", which is the same song twice over with almost no variety. Dave Stewart: "It's incredible as it is, Stevie! No need to change a thing from your demo! You fart gold!"
Boy does that give new meaning to “Gold Dust Woman...”
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  #89  
Old 05-23-2018, 11:14 AM
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I should add that Lindsey doesn't always know best; there are times when his advice shouldn't be followed (although personally, I don't think this was one of those times). It was Stevie's attitude that made me cringe.

An artist should welcome constructive input, even if in the end he or she decides to reject that input. Stevie could have considered it with an open mind and then said, "I see your point, but I feel it's important to keep it this way" instead of immediately shutting him down with this "How dare you! Don't you ever criticize my work!" attitude.
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Last edited by sodascouts : 05-23-2018 at 11:21 AM.
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  #90  
Old 05-23-2018, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by sodascouts View Post
I should add that Lindsey doesn't always know best; there are times when his advice shouldn't be followed (although personally, I don't think this was one of those times). It was Stevie's attitude that made me cringe.

An artist should welcome constructive input, even if in the end he or she decides to reject that input. Stevie could have considered it with an open mind and then said, "I see your point, but I feel it's important to keep it this way" instead of immediately shutting him down with this "How dare you! Don't you ever criticize my work!" attitude.
Haven’t seen the documentary for some time, but I think they really do not like each other...
So much so that they are waiting to pounce on any wrong phrase, wrong word wrong action, to somehow score points off one another.
Really sad
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