Poor Sales??

[chriskisn]

Originally Posted by DavidMn

You know what Steve, you're 100% right. I have been corrected on some typo's I've made in the past, but those were in PM where the communication was done in such a way that the person made their point without embarrassing the other person. That's the biggest problem I had.

I wonder why people feel the need to correct people's typos or even their spelling mistakes.

Seriously if I PM'd people every time they used "alot" instead of "a lot" I'd never be off the ledge...

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by trackaghost

It's also worth pointing out that some people don't have the same skills as the more educated or smarter posters here but that doesn't mean they should be humiliated for it.

And some people may not be writing in their native language. They may know 2 or 3 languages or more, but English just may not be the one they're most proficient in. Doesn't mean they're not brilliant and don't have insightful things to say about Fleetwood Mac.


Michele

[snoot]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

While PenguinHead's comments may have been a little harsh, I agree. I’m not suggesting perfect grammar or spelling should be required here (EVERYBODY fails that test at least once), but if it’s hard to understand the point a poster is trying to make due to things like no punctuation or random capitalization of words, then there is an issue.

I mean, at the very core, what do we do on boards like this? Communicate. If the point isn't being made in a way that is easily understood, what tends to not happen? Communication.

Beg to differ, and I'll tell you why. Internet forums are not places where ornamental niceties need rule supreme; they're simply communication outposts where ideas and opinions are exchanged quickly and freely. They are also peopled by folks from all over the globe communicating in a single, commonly accepted language. For some, that less-than-stellar English they're witnessing is in reality the achievement of years of hard work (as in a second language). All it takes is one fool to come along to crush the courage of those "testing" international waters with a single, ill thought out missile.

For anyone going back to the Gopher days of Deja and Usenet, you know that prim and proper English - while always pleasant and welcome - has never exclusively acceded to the fore. Much of that often perplexing Net lingo now found in nearly every corner of cyberspace first materialized as an expedient in various labs and educational communities by very accomplished (aka learned) peeps who went on to frame ARPANET, the forerunner to the Internet and WWW. Many there simply dispensed with capitalization and proper sentence case for reasons of expediency and simplification.

While I too decry the increasingly sloppy use of English as seen across the land (first realized well before the Net took hold btw, and mostly due to governmental, "level playing field" edicts and the ensuing fallout), I hardly dial up forums expecting to partake in anything remotely resembling Jeffersonian style exchanges. Some of the smartest folks I've witnessed on help and guidance forums over the years have not been concerned with crossing their T's and dotting their I's; they've figured out that ornamental niceties are trumped by the easy exchange of thoughts and opinions not encumbered by the maddening peculiarities of proper English! Halleluiah!

Finally, I don't care how "educated" or "non-educated" my counterparts are in these kinds of places, whether they're fellow Yanks or foreign born. Why or how does that matter when attending online forums, or in a music arena like this? If there was one thing we all should have learned from September 11th, it was that the erudites depend every bit as much on the working bumpkins as working stiffs depend on the guidance of so called "experts," particularly when push comes to shove. How many times did we witness firemen and security personnel kicking their foots through 2 or 3 inch mortar and plasterboard to save lawyers, bankers, engineers and corporate honchos resigned to a seemingly hopeless and "trapped" fate? LOL

[snoot]

Originally Posted by michelej1

And some people may not be writing in their native language. They may know 2 or 3 languages or more, but English just may not be the one they're most proficient in. Doesn't mean they're not brilliant and don't have insightful things to say about Fleetwood Mac.

Ah didn't see your post before I finalized mine Michele. If so, I would have dropped that particular point (even if it's a critical one).

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by snoot

Beg to differ, and I'll tell you why. Internet forums are not places where ornamental niceties need rule supreme; they're simply communication outposts where ideas and opinions are exchanged quickly and freely. They are also peopled by folks from all over the globe communicating in a single, commonly accepted language. For some, that less-than-stellar English they're witnessing is in reality the achievement of years of hard work (as in a second language). All it takes is one fool to come along to crush the courage of those "testing" international waters with a single, ill thought out missile.

For anyone going back to the Gopher days of Deja and Usenet, you know that prim and proper English - while always pleasant and welcome - has never exclusively acceded to the fore. Much of that often perplexing Net lingo now found in nearly every corner of cyberspace first materialized as an expedient in various labs and educational communities by very accomplished (aka learned) peeps who went on to frame ARPANET, the forerunner to the Internet and WWW. Many there simply dispensed with capitalization and proper sentence case for reasons of expediency and simplification.

While I too decry the increasingly sloppy use of English as seen across the land (first realized well before the Net took hold btw, and mostly due to governmental, "level playing field" edicts and the ensuing fallout), I hardly dial up forums expecting to partake in anything remotely resembling Jeffersonian style exchanges. Some of the smartest folks I've witnessed on help and guidance forums over the years have not been concerned with crossing their T's and dotting their I's; they've figured out that ornamental niceties are trumped by the easy exchange of thoughts and opinions not encumbered by the maddening peculiarities of proper English! Halleluiah!

Finally, I don't care how "educated" or "non-educated" my counterparts are in these kinds of places, whether they're fellow Yanks or foreign born. Why or how does that matter when attending online forums, or in a music arena like this? If there was one thing we all should have learned from September 11th, it was that the erudites depend every bit as much on the working bumpkins as working stiffs depend on the guidance of so called "experts," particularly when push comes to shove. How many times did we witness firemen and security personnel kicking their foots through 2 or 3 inch mortar and plasterboard to save lawyers, bankers, engineers and corporate honchos resigned to a seemingly hopeless and "trapped" fate? LOL

I think you read a helluva lot more into my words than what I actually wrote. All I have is a relatively simple request: Let us know where one thought ends and another begins.

I'm not asking for Jefferson or perfect spelling. As I said, we'd all fail that test (some of us miserably).

I understand that English isn't the native tongue of every poster, and I've always had a lot of respect for anybody who has taken up a second language, especially English, which isn't an easy language.

At the same time, we've had a lot of international posters over the years, and they've been able to clearly make their points, even if they don't use "proper" English structures or spell words correctly. Many of these people have been absolute treasures of amazing information.

I don't care so much about the quality of the sentence as much as the quality of the idea, but if I can't figure out that idea from what is written, then communication isn't happening.

And, it doesn't have to be proper to make that happen. I've been on lots of boards where people just hit the "Enter" key after every thought. It may take a while to read their posts, but their ideas get clearly transmitted.

If anything, I see PenguinHead's comments being made out of frustration stemming from seeing a debatable point, but not being sure of how to debate that point. Should it have gone to PM's? Maybe. But, it's not like this board has ever been known to be the kindest place on Earth, though it's a lot tamer now than it was a few years back (the rowdies have their own board now). It's a day at DisneyWorld compared to the old alt.music.fleetwood-mac. You wanna talk about messed up, try having some Neo-Nazi cross-post Nazi crap in your name. You haven't lived until you've had to explain THAT crap to pissed-off Aerosmith fans.

Finally, I think you're being somewhat hypocritical here. On the one hand, you seem to be saying that one fool can "crush the courage" of another poster, but on the other imply "relax, it's just a message board," at least in terms of reaction to language. If it's not that important (and it really isn't), then why should anybody let it crush their courage? And, make no mistake, people DO have control over how they respond to others. Some of us take crap that is flung our way as constructive criticism and learn from it.

[snoot]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

I think you read a helluva lot more into my words than what I actually wrote. All I have is a relatively simple request: Let us know where one thought ends and another begins.

My post was more a counter to the line of thinking that effective group communication and exchange spins around prim and proper language use (and in this case, English in all its convoluted glory). Maybe in a more perfect world, but the online world hardly qualifies as such, forums being even further removed. I simply think it is a waste of time to throw out or justify such criticisms. I went and read the "offending" messages and found absolutely nothing that deserved extra scrutiny or censure. All that amounts to is a form of nitpicking. If it's too hard to "decipher" (uh, right, as in moving mountains I suppose), move on to the next post!

However in fairness, I probably should not have cited your post, as most of what you stated was meant to be even-handed. But I do take exception to your point that strictures of these sorts serve a constructive purpose at these kinds of places. If anything, they cause more friction than they're worth (assuming they're meant to move things toward higher ground), for reasons I already put forth. If you want to agree with such criticism as it applies to infinitely more blatant instances (which we have all seen, and where we might find suitable agreement), you should have - at a minimum - made it clear that it hardly applies in this case. I think many of those who commented immediately after PH were far more realistic in their assessments and reactions.

"Crush the courage" - yes I've seen first hand, and on more than one occasion, folks already uneasy with their grasp and command of English throw in the towel when some butt hurt joker blurts out "Say what? Try speak English next time!" or some such petty quip. Don't act like it doesn't happen (and if you haven't witnessed this yet, you haven't been around as much as I thought). Often the "crushed" have more to say, albeit imperfect around the edges, than those smarter-than-thou, reactionary criticizers who seem all too eager to jump their bones at the smallest provocation.

As I see it, places like these should be kept as light and easy and "country" conversant as possible. It serves neither the board or its membership to lose active members over pompous prattle. This place barely sees enough action as it is, and those kinds of put downs rarely help. PenguinHead may be a sharp guy, as I know you are, but in this case he's being blinded by his own light.

PS. I've seen Nazi forum dialogue less bombastic tbk. Pinheadedness comes in a myriad of forms, a common genetic defect found in far too many (one and all?). This may come as news, but the neo-nazis have no corner on that market.

[wolfontherun]

Originally Posted by michelej1

And some people may not be writing in their native language. They may know 2 or 3 languages or more, but English just may not be the one they're most proficient in. Doesn't mean they're not brilliant and don't have insightful things to say about Fleetwood Mac.


Michele

Very well said. :-) Like many i grew up with spell check and it spoiled me for sure, my spelling skills are not all that great. When i come to a fun chat room I do not take the time to check every word, this is suppose to be fun not a college term paper.

[Zombie]

This is certainly not a place where everyone should be required to have perfect spelling and impeccable sentence structure, but I think it'd do us all some good to bear in mind why we have spelling and grammar rules in the first place.

Languages have rules for a reason, and that reason is that it provides us all with a common framework to use when communicating with each other. The common framework ensures that we each are better able to understand what the other is saying without a pile of misunderstandings. This is particularly important in a text-fueled medium like the Ledge.

It doesn't have to be perfect, but if we toss all basic usage out the window and do whatever we want, we then run the risk of no one being able to understand us.

And that's fine - if you do not want people to understand you properly, then rock on with your bad self. For me, I try to keep my posts as concise as possible so I can interact with the rest of you as best I can - otherwise, all the typing of my yippety-yap is a waste of both my time and yours.

[michelej1]

New York Daily News:

[#1 is Springsteen and FM is listed after that]

Five most anticipated pop music events for 2009
Sunday, January 4th 2009, 4:00 AM

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertain..._events_f.html



FLEETWOOD MAC UNLEASHED: HITS TOUR Nearly six years ago, Fleetwood Mac launched its first tour without deep-voiced Christine McVie since the early ’70s. The loss wound up changing the whole dynamic of the band — and in fascinating ways. Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham, as the focal points, related to each other in a way they hadn’t since before they joined Mac back in 1975. That pulled different emotions out of the entire band, while also providing more room for Lindsey’s frenzied and astute guitar solos. Now Mac returns with dates March 13 at Nassau Coliseum, the 19th at the Garden and the 21st in the Meadowlands. Miss them at your own peril.

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by michelej1

FLEETWOOD MAC UNLEASHED: HITS TOUR Nearly six years ago, Fleetwood Mac launched its first tour without deep-voiced Christine McVie since the early ’70s. The loss wound up changing the whole dynamic of the band — and in fascinating ways...

If Christine is "deep-voiced," then Stevie must be a baritone?

[Musicman408]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

If Christine is "deep-voiced," then Stevie must be a baritone?

Pushing on low bass, I know- right?

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

If Christine is "deep-voiced," then Stevie must be a baritone?

That would leave Lindsey with the highest voice in the band.

Michele

[kennation]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

I think you read a helluva lot more into my words than what I actually wrote. All I have is a relatively simple request: Let us know where one thought ends and another begins.

I'm not asking for Jefferson or perfect spelling. As I said, we'd all fail that test (some of us miserably).

I understand that English isn't the native tongue of every poster, and I've always had a lot of respect for anybody who has taken up a second language, especially English, which isn't an easy language.

At the same time, we've had a lot of international posters over the years, and they've been able to clearly make their points, even if they don't use "proper" English structures or spell words correctly. Many of these people have been absolute treasures of amazing information.

I don't care so much about the quality of the sentence as much as the quality of the idea, but if I can't figure out that idea from what is written, then communication isn't happening.

And, it doesn't have to be proper to make that happen. I've been on lots of boards where people just hit the "Enter" key after every thought. It may take a while to read their posts, but their ideas get clearly transmitted.

If anything, I see PenguinHead's comments being made out of frustration stemming from seeing a debatable point, but not being sure of how to debate that point. Should it have gone to PM's? Maybe. But, it's not like this board has ever been known to be the kindest place on Earth, though it's a lot tamer now than it was a few years back (the rowdies have their own board now). It's a day at DisneyWorld compared to the old alt.music.fleetwood-mac. You wanna talk about messed up, try having some Neo-Nazi cross-post Nazi crap in your name. You haven't lived until you've had to explain THAT crap to pissed-off Aerosmith fans.

Finally, I think you're being somewhat hypocritical here. On the one hand, you seem to be saying that one fool can "crush the courage" of another poster, but on the other imply "relax, it's just a message board," at least in terms of reaction to language. If it's not that important (and it really isn't), then why should anybody let it crush their courage? And, make no mistake, people DO have control over how they respond to others. Some of us take crap that is flung our way as constructive criticism and learn from it.

LOOK- It's Steve, being pushy and know-it-all once again. SNOOT is expressing an opinion and you gotta shut it down. You're like, "The Ledge Bullie" except you don't scar anyone. I like to read how silly and petty you are. Not just you, cause there are a lot of people like you on this site. I once thought it was about Fleetwood Mac, but really it's for you, "know-it-nothings" to brow beat one another. That is hilarious. Thanks for providing some silly entertainment!

[David]

Originally Posted by kennation

Not just you, cause there are a lot of people like you on this site.

Everybody here has at least one good point.

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by David

Everybody here has at least one good point.

Why thank you David!