The End Of The Game

[doodyhead]

Some Unseen Force has conjured up this idea!

What if peter green had decided to fufill his contractual obligation to the record industry by making a freeforrm album

What would it sound like?
What would people think of it?

Would he care?

All these questions I pose to you, the readers of the ledge

[snoot]

Originally Posted by doodyhead

Some Unseen Force has conjured up this idea!

What - or who - the hell would that be!

Ok I'm lifting part of this from a recent entry elsewhere, as it basically defines my take on TEOTG:

Take One: Definitely has some amazing flourishes throughout, but damn if that isn't a lot of aimless rambling too. Throws me for a loop every time. Always wondered if he was high when he recorded it.

Take Two: Free form psychedelia almost brought rock to it's knees long ago, shades of what disco - in a complete different vein and style - did years later. Those Dead concerts were overrated for the most part, unless you were stoned, or juiced up pretty good. Likewise with disco, it all came down to indulgence and "feeling fine." While my Grateful Dead take is strictly subjective (and some of it WAS fun and creative in a modicum of ways), my take on free form as art isn't. That was NOT progress, musically or otherwise. Fun in its indulgence ok, but thankfully fleeting in the end.

Thank God more big bangers didn't take to it. At one time I though more might, as it looked like things were heading that way! Suppose Green kept his mind, and Hendrix didn't pull daisies prematurely? Who knows...

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by snoot

Take Two: Free form psychedelia almost brought rock to it's knees long ago, shades of what disco - in a complete different vein and style - did years later. Those Dead concerts were overrated for the most part, unless you were stoned, or juiced up pretty good. Likewise with disco, it all came down to indulgence and "feeling fine." While my Grateful Dead take is strictly subjective (and some of it WAS fun and creative in a modicum of ways), my take on free form as art isn't. That was NOT progress, musically or otherwise. Fun in its indulgence ok, but thankfully fleeting in the end.

This is why I don't like free jazz. Yet I don't have a problem with it in a rock setting if it has a start, middle, and finish. So which period of the Grateful Dead are you speaking?


While "Live Dead" is a milestone live album, I think their best work was when Mickey Hart took a leave of absence ('71-'74). The Dead didn't need two drummers, with Bill Kreutzmann alone the band could swing! Anything from '69 to 10/74 is good music (except some of the fall '73 US tour had some snoozers). Those Oakland shows with the Who in '76 are great because GD knew they needed to be on their game. 1977 had some highlights, but it pretty much ended by 3/78. The '89 tours (summer-fall) were a brief revival of the past with Garcia in better health. BTW all of the above I can enjoy without illegal substances, or alcohol.

[bjornense]

Originally Posted by snoot

... Always wondered if he was high when he recorded it.

I've read an interview with the session keyboardist Zoot Money and he claimed that there was no drugs involved, opposed to popular belief, the night the album was recorded.

[dino]

Originally Posted by bjornense

I've read an interview with the session keyboardist Zoot Money and he claimed that there was no drugs involved, opposed to popular belief, the night the album was recorded.

And Nigel Watson claims Peter was on lsd, but was he even there?
I like this album, but on parts of it nothing much happens.
I'm a big fan of 70's Miles Davis, so I like the style,
but you have to at least have a melodic theme.
Hopefully the master tapes can be located, and we'll probably
have an even better album!

[snoot]

snoot: Those Dead concerts were overrated for the most part, unless you were stoned, or juiced up pretty good.

slipkid: This is why I don't like free jazz. Yet I don't have a problem with it in a rock setting if it has a start, middle, and finish. So which period of the Grateful Dead are you speaking?

Somewhere in the early 70's, what year I'm not exactly sure now. I went on the urging of a friend since they weren't exactly on the top of my lists of "must see's." They are a good jam band, I'll give them that, but there was so much improvisation going on that I was never sure where the beginning, middle and end of each tune, or even segment, was. The concert went on soooo long I was actually getting a bit weary (and thus why I implied it might have been better if I was stoned, or lit up more). A lot of spacey fusings and stylings, some not bad either, but it was hard to find a cohesive flow to it all (aside from a few clever segues, and some admittedly driving moments found within).

Beyond that, the PA system they were using seemed to be hit and miss, so that too was distracting and a bit of a letdown. And yet I heard it was one of the best, even custom designed for the Dead! So while I'll say their Wall of Sound was very distinct and even trailblazing for its day, it also suffered from drawbacks like excessive free form, and complications arising thereof. Hey, for all I know, it may have been a less than stellar night, so who knows! The Dead were a pretty good act overall, and always gave it their all live. But sometimes I think they're amped up a bit "high" by their extremely devoted (ergo, partisan) fans, and proponents of abstract, free flow improv. Truth be known, I prefer more the live framing of the Who, or ABB, or IABD, or Jethro Tull - or hell, The Moody Blues.

What's that old saying, to each their own?

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by snoot

Somewhere in the early 70's, what year I'm not exactly sure now. I went on the urging of a friend since they weren't exactly on the top of my lists of "must see's." They are a good jam band, I'll give them that, but there was so much improvisation going on that I was never sure where the beginning, middle and end of each tune, or even segment, was. The concert went on soooo long I was actually getting a bit weary (and thus why I implied it might have been better if I was stoned, or lit up more). A lot of spacey fusings and stylings, some not bad either, but it was hard to find a cohesive flow to it all (aside from a few clever segues, and some admittedly driving moments found within).

Beyond that, the PA system they were using seemed to be hit and miss, so that too was distracting and a bit of a letdown. And yet I heard it was one of the best, even custom designed for the Dead! So while I'll say their Wall of Sound was very distinct and even trailblazing for its day, it also suffered from drawbacks like excessive free form, and complications arising thereof. Hey, for all I know, it may have been a less than stellar night, so who knows! The Dead were a pretty good act overall, and always gave it their all live. But sometimes I think they're amped up a bit "high" by their extremely devoted (ergo, partisan) fans, and proponents of abstract, free flow improv. Truth be known, I prefer more the live framing of the Who, or ABB, or IABD, or Jethro Tull - or hell, The Moody Blues.

What's that old saying, to each their own?

I guess if you were "there" I can understand. In the summer of '73 the Dead played a show at R.F.K stadium (with the ABB) that lasted five and a half hours (that's just the Dead's portion)! With modern technology, I don't have to hear the show all the way through at once.


The Wall of Sound was certainly an experiment (3/74-10/74). The recording quality of those shows isn't top notch either so I'll take your assessment of the sound as correct.

I agree about the "deadheads" who over amplify the Dead's accomplishments. To hear some talk about how good those early 90's shows were (esp. after Brent Mydland died) is nauseating. It's as if "Are you listening to the same piece of music as me?" The same goes for those times in the 80's when Jerry was obviously too strung out or unhealthy to play.


A general rule is I'll take a Who or ABB, or Tull (I have seen all three) show any day of the week over the Dead. It's just sometimes I get in that mood, and those are the period(s) that I listed before that I can enjoy. Oh, and as long as I don't intermingle with the fans too much. They get on my nerves.

[snoot]

Originally Posted by slipkid

I guess if you were "there" I can understand.

It's always the best way to travel, and judge. I'm certain some shows were better than others, as were certain eras versus others. Jerry Garcia was quite a character, once you looked past his multitude of excesses (ouch). I still mostly remember Bob Weir from his Easy To Slip hit from the late 70's. I once heard an extended jam of it, which was quite nice to boot. I just never was anything close to a deadhead, even if I did like a number of the band's better known tunes. Some were true classics, Truckin' probably leading the way.

In the summer of '73 the Dead played a show at R.F.K stadium (with the ABB) that lasted five and a half hours (that's just the Dead's portion)!

They were legendary for their extended (if not exhaustive, or excessive lol) performances. Not all ran that long of course, but I bet a few lasted even longer! You can't say they didn't give their fans their due, and then some!

A general rule is I'll take a Who or ABB, or Tull (I have seen all three) show any day of the week over the Dead.

You mention The Who, ABB and JT live, three great acts from the early '70's. Another guy who could flat out rock from that era was Alvin Lee, whether with or without his band Ten Years After. Damn if he didn't always put on a great live show. I can recall one tour he did just after his TYA days were over, a rock n roll revival of sorts. That was classic, even if he didn't turn to the guitar pyrotechnics for which he was so long associated. You can glimpse that concert with Alvin Lee & Company - In Flight [Live] (1974). Compare it with TYA - Recorded Live [in Europe] from the previous year (1973) to appreciate the ground that guy could so effortlessly cover.

It's just sometimes I get in that mood, and those are the period(s) that I listed before that I can enjoy. Oh, and as long as I don't intermingle with the fans too much. They get on my nerves.

Ain't it the truth, even though most deadheads were/are pretty mellow folks, and most mean well. But as for getting in the right mood, I suppose a lot of our appreciation for music at any given time comes down to the mood we're actually in, or how long it's been since we last visited that specific ground. Ever notice how much better food tastes when you're really hungry? Ca-ching!

[doodyhead]

while the comparison of the "Dead", Allman Bros, and Fleetwood Mac is valid (see Rattlesnake Shake/Madge/Underway) this has little to do with "The End Of The Game"
I really think you have to look in reference to Miles Davis of that period and Pharoah Sanders to see where the session was going. You might also look to the things he was attempting publicly at the same time

Heavy Heart, Beast of Burden, No Way Out, and I don't remember the fourth song of the two singles released. In a prior thread there is a Youtube link to one of these songs done on TV

doodyhead

[dino]

Originally Posted by doodyhead

while the comparison of the "Dead", Allman Bros, and Fleetwood Mac is valid (see Rattlesnake Shake/Madge/Underway) this has little to do with "The End Of The Game"
I really think you have to look in reference to Miles Davis of that period and Pharoah Sanders to see where the session was going. You might also look to the things he was attempting publicly at the same time

Heavy Heart, Beast of Burden, No Way Out, and I don't remember the fourth song of the two singles released. In a prior thread there is a Youtube link to one of these songs done on TV

doodyhead

Agreed. It's not "jam band" music like Allman Bros, it's more space music.
The fourth song is Uganda Woman (the least interesting, perhaps).

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by doodyhead

while the comparison of the "Dead", Allman Bros, and Fleetwood Mac is valid (see Rattlesnake Shake/Madge/Underway) this has little to do with "The End Of The Game"
I really think you have to look in reference to Miles Davis of that period and Pharoah Sanders to see where the session was going. You might also look to the things he was attempting publicly at the same time

Heavy Heart, Beast of Burden, No Way Out, and I don't remember the fourth song of the two singles released. In a prior thread there is a Youtube link to one of these songs done on TV

doodyhead

You're correct, sorry for the tangent. However, End of the Game does remind me of one Jerry Garcia project (away from the Grateful Dead) that was made around the same time ('70). It's an album called "Side Trips Vol. 1", with Howard Wales. If you haven't heard it, I suggest you check it out.

[snoot]

Originally Posted by dino

Agreed. It's not "jam band" music like Allman Bros, it's more space music.

Spacey is right. But if you heard some of those Dead concerts at the height of the psychedelic era, you'd know that was one jam band that could give End Of The Game a run for the money, highlighted by their "all night jams." That's hardly off on a tangent by comparison, at least with Garcia & clan.

[Wouter Vuijk]

Originally Posted by snoot

Somewhere in the early 70's, what year I'm not exactly sure now. I went on the urging of a friend since they weren't exactly on the top of my lists of "must see's." They are a good jam band, I'll give them that, but there was so much improvisation going on that I was never sure where the beginning, middle and end of each tune, or even segment, was. The concert went on soooo long I was actually getting a bit weary (and thus why I implied it might have been better if I was stoned, or lit up more). A lot of spacey fusings and stylings, some not bad either, but it was hard to find a cohesive flow to it all (aside from a few clever segues, and some admittedly driving moments found within).

Well, not all the GD concerts in those days were totally made up with everlasting jams.
Take for example the may15, 1970 late show:
http://www.archive.org/details/gd_nr...lan.29473.shnf
Approximately 61 songs withonly two lasting more than 19 minutes (Dark Star and Turn ON Your Lovelight), the others somewhere between 2 and, say, 1o minutes:
1 Tuning 01:32
2 Bill Graham Introduction 00:56
3 Don't Ease Me In 03:50
4 I Know You Rider 09:12
5 The Rub 06:20
6 Friend Of The Devil 03:49
7 Long Black Limousine 05:30
8 Candyman/Equipment problems 11:53
9 Cumberland Blues 05:34
10 New Speedway Boogie 07:12
11 Cold Jordan 03:11
12 Stage Preparations 09:38
13 Bill Graham Introduction/Six Days On The Road 04:21
14 Whatcha Gonna Do? 04:37
15 I Don't Know You 04:23
16 Henry 03:51
17 Portland Woman 04:51
18 Fair Chance To Know 05:03
19 Last Lonely Eagle 02:01
20 Tuning/Introduction 01:53
21 Casey Jones 05:50
22 Easy Wind 08:48
23 Attics Of My Life 06:36
24 St. Stephen > 05:52
25 Cryptical Envelopment > 01:56
26 Drums > 06:52
27 The Other One > 11:11
28 Cryptical Reprise > 04:22
29 Cosmic Charlie 09:59
30 New Minglewood Blues 04:14
31 Ballad Of Casey JOnes 03:03
32 Silver Threads And Golden Needles 03:50
33 Black Peter 07:07
34 Friend Of The Deveil 05:54
35 Uncle John's Band 06:56
36 Candyman 07:23
37 She's Mine 02:54
38 Katie Mae 05:31
39 I Hear A Voice Callin' 03:06
40 House Music /Stage Preparations 04:06
41 Stage Preparations 03:27
42 Bill Graham Introduction/Brown-Eyed Handsome Man 04:59
43 Louisana Lady 05:43
44 Can't Pay The Price 04:48
45 Truck Drivin' Man 03:59
46 All I Ever Wanted 08:24
47 Workin' Man Blues 04:13
48 Henry/Broken String 07:09
49 I Don't Know You 04:03
50 Lodi 04:31
51 Last Lonely Eagle 06:50
52 Mama Tried 03:05
53 Sawmill 04:01
54 Me And My Uncle 04:57
55 Connection 05:34
56 Here Comes The Sun/Stage Preparations 01:22
57 The Sun King/Stage Preparations/Marines' Hymn 04:43
58 Bill Graham Introduction/China Cat Sunflower > 04:07
59 I Know You Rider 04:47
60 Cumverland Blues 05:02
61 Hard To Handle/Broken String 10:17
62 Beat It On Down The Line 03:30
63 Morning Dew 10:59
64 Good Lovin' 13:58
65 Dire Wolf 04:27
66 Next Time You See Me 04:49
67 Dark Star > 19:37
68 St Stephen > 04:03
69 Not Fade Away > 06:56
70 Turn On Your Lovelight 27:01
71 Cold Jordan 02:42

[snoot]

Originally Posted by Wouter Vuijk

Well, not all the GD concerts in those days were totally made up with everlasting jams.

Of course not, as the concert you cite readily shows. That obviously wasn't one of their famous "all night jam" gigs, or Jerry wasn't cooked, or at least sufficiently.

However some of their more psychedelic performances were noted for their clever segue blends. I'm sure their stage performances varied widely though, depending on any number of circumstances, to include the actual era - or even venue. One thing's for certain, they did nothing by rote! Jerry was a very good musician, but he was also know for living on the "large" side, embracing plenty of "freestyle" indulgences along the way. "Party Hearty" were two words never far from his lips.

Let's not forget that the Dead's fame rested on their ability to never play their songs the same way twice. When it came to soloing, Garcia was all about mixing things up, variations on the theme as it were. It's also been claimed that the Grateful Dead played nearly 2,500 shows! Beyond the obvious gamut of variables that underscores, lots of unique performances would no doubt have occurred over that kind of timeline - some for the better, some for the worse.

PS. Speaking of wide range, Garcia even lent a hand to his pal David LaFlamme on IABD's second album, Marrying Maiden (1970), specifically pedal steel on It Comes Right Down To You, plus some fiery banjo [!] fretwork on the track Hoedown. He also added a bit of pedal-steel for various Purple Sage projects over the years, so his ability to deliver on any number of stringed instruments should never be questioned.