US Health Care Bill Vote Today

[tilthefirefades]

Originally Posted by WildHeart69

I don't I mean, the NRA stands for safety and rights.... I think the NRA is trying to PREVENT things like the Columbine shooting.

Gun control is a WHOOOOLE other issue, but as Louie touched on earlier, when you start messing with the founding father's plans, you are on a slippery slope..

I think we should agree to disagree, or we could start a new thread.

Fair enough I do enjoy a good debate though.

Back on topic: Obama says: "Anthony, this is just one more link in the chain" And I say "Well I have to believe him"

[WildHeart69]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

Fantastic points, both of them. Biden hasn't done much other than stay mostly quiet, and only made himself look like an idiot a couple of times... not something I'm sure you could say right now Palin been in his shoes

ehh, I dunno about that... I mean, had McCain won, she wouldnt have written that book and had all of the Leno, Conan, The View, etc bookings where she shoots her mouth off on live TV. I think the White House "handlers" would be doing exactly what they are doing with Biden right now and kept her on a tight leash.

Just my opinion, of course

[louielouie2000]

Originally Posted by WildHeart69

ehh, I dunno about that... I mean, had McCain won, she wouldnt have written that book and had all of the Leno, Conan, The View, etc bookings where she shoots her mouth off on live TV. I think the White House "handlers" would be doing exactly what they are doing with Biden right now and kept her on a tight leash.

Just my opinion, of course

You're undoubtedly right... but as a rebuttal, they sure didn't do a very good job corking up Dick Cheney. In the end, I think a vice president's vocality has as much to do with how closely tied their political beliefs are versus their president's. Biden isn't just quiet because he's a dummy being muzzled, I think he's also fairly quiet because his ideals aren't all that different from Obama's. In my eyes, Cheney had far more focused and distinct goals than George W... and that's why he was so vocal. I'd tend to think Palin would follow in those steps. McCain for the most part, is pretty moderate and centrist... and Palin, just isn't. She's very vocal with what she believes, and won't back down on her beliefs one iota (not a bad thing at all for a politician, truthfully).

I must say, I'm having a good time bantering back and for with you!

[APerfectLie]

I've never understood why it is that people don't want health care reform. I am a type one diabetic and I know first hand how insurance companies are always going to dick you any time they can. It is all about profit for them and the less they pay for, the more money they make. Ergo, the less treatment people get the more money they make. It's a ****ed up system because they have an interest, a benefit, in denying you coverage or treatment! I am not satisfied with this bill because it does not have a public option, but it is one step closer. Why do we want the govt even more active in our lives? Because that is what the govt is here for. As Lincoln said, " that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth." Government is a social contract we make with each other, and we give up some of our freedoms in order to protect us. I wonder what you think is more important to a group of people, education or being alive? If school was privatized, every one would go crazy. So why is it that giving people the right to health care is so preposterous? Granted it won't guarantee that you will live, but it will give you a hell of a better shot at it. I take insulin every day to live and without it I die. Luckily, I am still covered by my mom's insurance, however, when I graduate college in a year, I will be dropped from her insurance. Had congress not done away with "pre-existing conditions" I would SOL until I found a job who offered insurance. That would mean I would have to spend $480 a month just to live, until I found a job. That's just for the insulin alone, not counting the test strips, insulin pump supplies, and any doctor's visits. Of course, our health care problems don't lie solely with the insurance companies, but also with drug companies and even doctors too. It's a huge mess and anyone who sits back and thinks our system is fine is terribly mistaken, misinformed, or naive. Health care isn't fixed yet, but it is on its way to getting better.

[Zombie]

This is not a "perfect" bill, but there was no way it was ever going to be - no matter what you do, someone is going to be upset about it, and want it to go away.

The problem comes in when people are opposed to ANYTHING based on knee-jerk emotional reactions or ideas they haven't quite thought through.

Case in point, my aunt was spazzing over how terrible this is (this from a woman that is in constant chronic pain due to a botched scoliosis surgery as a child, who has no insurance and can't afford pain meds and doctor's visits like she needs), because "it will result in people being euthanized."

...wat.

I am very interested to see how this plays out, whether it will or won't help the situation, but I can't get behind the idea that we shouldn't have some sort of program in place to help people that don't have health coverage.

< anecdata >

I make too much to get state aid, but not enough to afford decent coverage for myself or my kids on my own. I live in fear of one of us getting seriously ill, because I just can't afford to get sick. And I have chronic health problems myself that I must just soldier through, because there's nothing I can do about it.

My kids' father made too much to get state aid, by about a measly 50 bucks, but not enough to be able to afford insurance through his job, either, and as a result, after his first heart attack (which cost nearly 40k for a 3 day hospital stay and stent surgery, which the hospital ended up suing him for because he couldn't afford the payments they wanted), was unable to afford the regular check-ups and medications that would keep him alive.

About a year later - despite quitting smoking, completely changing his diet, and walking at least 11 miles a day to and from work - he had another heart attack and died. One that could've been prevented, had he had access to the medicine he needed.

He did everything he could do to improve his health on his own, but it wasn't enough - he needed help, and he couldn't get it.

Now, do I know for absolute sure that he would still be with us if he HAD had access to what he needed? Of course not. But I don't rule out the strong possibility that he might be.

And I know way too many more stories just like that, though I wish I didn't.

< /anecdata >

I firmly believe that we, as a society, should take care of each other, and that includes doing what we can to make sure we're all as healthy as possible. The lack of affordable health care in this country has the potential to cause us some really devastating problems, and we need to get started on heading that off at the pass before it is too late.

No one should have to choose between feeding their family and buying a prescription they need to stay alive. No one should have to sit and suffer through debilitating chronic pain or illness because they can't afford to do otherwise. No one should live in fear of getting even slightly sick.

This law is not going to be set in stone and stay the way it is written now forever. No laws we have do that - they are built to change and evolve as we change and evolve. What this does do, though, is get us set up and moving in the right direction - towards something that everyone can live with, something that will help those that need it and not affect those that don't.

[holidayroad]

I don't love everything about this health care bill. I don't think people should be Forced to buy health insurance. I do know that changes need to be made though. I hope the parts about not denying coverage to children with pre-existing conditions and no longer having a 'lifetime dollar amount 'set on policies go through. My son has reached his lifetime dollar amounts with two different insurance companies. He's only 7 years old. I have often been afraid that once he reaches adulthood, no insurance company is going to take him on.

[David]

I downloaded the PDF of the bill a few days ago & did an electronic search for the word "tort." The search came up empty. I assume, therefore, that this enormous, hugely expensive bill makes absolutely no provisions for reform in tort issues--primarily, plainly unreasonable jury awards? Also, what about malpractice insurance coverage costs? Any move toward making those costs more reasonable, whether by opening state-line regulations & growing the competition or by jury award reform?

If it's my "right" to be treated by a physician, why isn't it my "right" to have a lifelong food supply put in front of me? or a lifelong water supply? The point isn't "rights"--the point is having access to a product or service by way of a delivery system on the open market. "Free" healthcare might be free for YOU, but it isn't free for other parties along the delivery system. When a physician treats you, it is costing her: in time, training, & money. It is supremely inefficient for the state to attempt to pay the costs of every party involved in the healthcare delivery system--mark my words, people will continue to sicken & die waiting for a bureaucracy to respond to their needs. It's demonstrably more efficient & safer & more moral to allow a market to operate the way a market operates: allow a demand for a product or service to generate delivery across a cost spectrum, from cheap to expensive, depending on how much an individual wants to or can afford to spend.

When I want to buy something, I want thousands of suppliers competing for my dollar. I want each supplier knowing full well that if I'm not happy with one, I'll quickly move to another. Such a novel approach should have been implemented, & in order to implement it, the state would have had to deregulate by allowing customers to transact business with any health insurance company in the country.

Is there a real-world example of a largely (but not completely) deregulated market in America today that, through innovation & the freedom to compete, is successful at delivering its product to just about everybody who wants one & who makes huge profits that, in turn, drive further innovation--in most cases, at a whirlwind pace, creating thousands of jobs & giving just about all of us access to a world of information--at a price that drops year after year after year?

Look down at the machine you're typing on right now.

[vermicious knid]

After reviewing thousands of patient records, medical researchers have estimated that only 2 to 3 percent of cases of medical negligence lead to a malpractice claim.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/23/bu...tml?_r=1&scp=3

Numerous studies have consistently shown that increasing damage awards from malpractice explain only a small portion of the rapid rise in health care costs. A January 2004 study by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) found from 1986 to 2002, malpractice insurance premiums jumped 15% per year, while the average damage award rose only 8% ($95,000 to $320,000).
http://www.perrspectives.com/blog/ar...1648.htm#three (this is a good website)




Some people and organizations that oppose the bill say the best reforms (Medicare expansion and drug price negotiation) are not in this bill, but they don't include tort reform as one of them.

[APerfectLie]

Originally Posted by holidayroad

I don't love everything about this health care bill. I don't think people should be Forced to buy health insurance. I do know that changes need to be made though. I hope the parts about not denying coverage to children with pre-existing conditions and no longer having a 'lifetime dollar amount 'set on policies go through. My son has reached his lifetime dollar amounts with two different insurance companies. He's only 7 years old. I have often been afraid that once he reaches adulthood, no insurance company is going to take him on.

I must say that I agree, but I have mixed feelings on the subject. I want to buy health insurance as it would not be wise of me not to, however I don't feel you should ever be forced to buy a product. But I do believe this provision will piss a lot of people off and they will began to DEMAND that if the govt requires us to have health insurance, the govt should provide it, which will segway into a public option.

[tilthefirefades]

Originally Posted by APerfectLie

I must say that I agree, but I have mixed feelings on the subject. I want to buy health insurance as it would not be wise of me not to, however I don't feel you should ever be forced to buy a product. But I do believe this provision will piss a lot of people off and they will began to DEMAND that if the govt requires us to have health insurance, the govt should provide it, which will segway into a public option.

Which would be incredible. America at one time sat the example for other countries to follow, now it's the opposite.

[WildHeart69]

just read this in an MSN.com article:

Q: What will happen to my premiums?

A: That's hard to predict and the subject of much debate. People who are sick might face lower premiums than otherwise because insurers wouldn't be permitted to charge sick people more; healthier people might pay more.

good times!

[tilthefirefades]

Here is a nice summary of the bill that was passed.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/...care-bill.html

[carrie721]

Originally Posted by FMlex

This bill is just another element in a certain "agenda" which is on the road to turning America into something that our Founding Fathers would not be able to recognize.

I know I'm probably one of the only conservatives on here, but that's just my view. I won't say anything else on this thread.

our founding forefathers also wouldn't recognize an america where women could vote, black people aren't slaves, the hummaseckshuls can live their lives out in the open, people drive crazy motorized horseless carriages, etc etc. so, y'know. you might want to drop that argument.

[David]

Originally Posted by vermicious knid

After reviewing thousands of patient records, medical researchers have estimated that only 2 to 3 percent of cases of medical negligence lead to a malpractice claim.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/23/bu...tml?_r=1&scp=3

Numerous studies have consistently shown that increasing damage awards from malpractice explain only a small portion of the rapid rise in health care costs. A January 2004 study by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) found from 1986 to 2002, malpractice insurance premiums jumped 15% per year, while the average damage award rose only 8% ($95,000 to $320,000).
http://www.perrspectives.com/blog/ar...1648.htm#three (this is a good website)

"The average liability judgment in medical negligence cases increased by 234 percent between 1996 and 2002, and the trend continues." Jury Verdict Research, Current Award Trends in Personal Injury 18 (43ded. 2004)

"According to a study by Towers Perrin in 2007, medical liability went from 5.8 percent of total tort court costs in 1975 to 12.2 percent in 2006. Annual cost growth since 1975 has averaged 11.1 percent per year for medical liability, and 8.4 percent per year for other torts. Further, between 2005 and 2006, when overall U.S. tort costs fell by 5.5 percent, medical liability costs were still rising by almost three percent." American Medical Association. Medical Liability Reform – NOW!. Feb 5, 2008

"In many areas, lawsuits have rendered liability insurance either unaffordable or unattainable. The result is physicians who refuse to perform certain procedures for risk of suit and large groups of consumers who are artificially priced out of the insurance market." National MICRA Under Attack, California Physician, 31 January 2003. Available at http://calphys.org/html/bb113.asp

"Limited available data indicate that growth in malpractice premiums and claims payments has been slower in states that enacted tort reform laws that include certain caps on noneconomic damages." U.S. General Accounting Office report "Implications of Rising Premiums on Access to Health Care, Aug. 2003

"The American Medical Association (AMA) commented that the scope of work was not sufficient to support the finding that rising malpractice premiums have not contributed to widespread health care access problems." U.S. General Accounting Office report "Implications of Rising Premiums on Access to Health Care, Aug. 2003

Some people and organizations that oppose the bill say the best reforms (Medicare expansion and drug price negotiation) are not in this bill, but they don't include tort reform as one of them.

And do they include any steps whatsoever to lower premiums costs to physicians, hospitals, & out-patient facilities for malpractice insurance?

[SandyMac]

Originally Posted by vivfox

I'm sorry about the loss of your sister. I'm sure that was devistating.

I bet having health insurance was a comfort for her, knowing she didn't have a high monetary price to keep herself alive, and knowing that her loved ones would not be stuck with the hassle of paying enormous amounts of money after her death.

I'm sorry I had to use your sister as an example.

Here in Massachusetts we have Universal Health Care. I never had health insurance until this was implemented and being able to utilize it has greatly improved my overall health because I can now practice peventive health care without worrying about cost. Cost alone, was enough to keep me from getting some of the help I needed.

Well, she was sick off and on just coughing and not feeling well and 3 weeks later, passed away. No one knew she had cancer.

And where the hell did people get the idea we were not for health care reform damn it!
I think everyone wants reform, it was just done in such a half assed backwards way. I want reform, but want it done right! Do you know they are voting on 'fixes" to the Senate bill on the Senate portion that was passed?

There is no such thing as free health care, even at reduced rates to you and I, someone is paying for it.

Now, I am going to demand free access to drinking water and food. It is my right! Without it, I will suffer and get sick. It is my right to remain healthy right?

Yes, I am being very very sarcastic because I am not sure where common sense went in America. Why the hell is Federal Government telling me what to buy? or pay a penalty?
OMG, this is ridiculous.

This is really sad that our legislative process has come down to transparent and in your face arm twisting of politicians to vote for an agenda and not have the best interest of the American people.

Come November, there are going to be a lot of Democrats fired over this.