This absolutely disgusts me.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by wondergirl9847
Me too!!

I would say, perhaps, God was trying to show that even though the Jews were the chosen people....they have faults, just like every human on earth?



I'm not God, I dunno. LOL

ITA AND Christ forgave them all - Romans, Jews, mankind in general. So who are the people who still blame only the Jews think they are following when they chose to ignore Christ's teaching and not forgive what Christ forgave.

[wondergirl9847]

As God forgave us for our ugly sins, so we should forgive...70 times 70.

[CarneVaca]

Well, folks, the Jews didn't kill Jesus and neither did the Romans. Probably. If it happened, it most likely would have been the Romans anyway.

Unless you literally believe that Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected three days later, there's just simply no way it happened. Now if you believe that it literally happened, great. Read no further.

If you're like me and don't believe it, this presents a problem. Just how did the crucifixion story get its wings? One theory is that it was staged, that it actually took place in private land, which would be highly unusual for the Roman practice of very public crucifixions. So if you accept it was staged, no problem there. I'm not sure I accept that yet.

One could also conclude that when the prophet Jesus died on the cross, that was that. No resurrection took place, but as myths often do, this episode took on mythical proportions and over the ages it became accepted as fact. The Gnostic Gospels don't really deify Jesus the way the Bible seems to. And by the way, the four gospels chosen for the New Testament were heavily edited. There are other gospels that weren't included, and you have to ask why. Why? Because the Catholic Church knows they would be too tough to explain away if you want people to keep believing Jesus was god. As it is, the four gospels they picked have lots of contradictions and inconsistencies.

Now, some of the newer Christian churches have every right to believe that Jesus is God. After all, they don't have the documents the Catholic Church is keeping. But believing don't make it a fact.

Eh?

[DrummerDeanna]

Originally posted by CarneVaca

.

And by the way, the four gospels chosen for the New Testament were heavily edited. There are other gospels that weren't included, and you have to ask why. Why? Because the Catholic Church knows they would be too tough to explain away if you want people to keep believing Jesus was god. As it is, the four gospels they picked have lots of contradictions and inconsistencies.

Eh?

That right there is why I do not believe the Bible is something to be taken literally. It was written by man...and though it can be a great tool or whatever, it is not meant to be taken word word as literal....just my opinion

Anyway, because of all the hype I am super curious about Mel Gibson's movie....and as for Mel's father...I really have nothing to say to that

[DeeGeMe]

Once again I'm blown away by the eloquence of my fellow Ledgies. You've all posted some very though-provoking responses. I have no interest in seeing the film--sounds too violent for me and I'm not a big fan of biblical recreations.

Personally, I've always had problems with the literal interpretation of the Bible and have always thought we'd should look to the message and the meaning if not the actual logic behind it. I guess that's why they call it a "belief" system. One of my favorite quotes goes something like this--You have to have doubt to have faith, because without that doubt, how would you know you had faith?

[wondergirl9847]

I believe in the literal translation of the Bible because it says to.

"First, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation. No prophecy ever originated from humans. Instead, it was given by the Holy Spirit as humans spoke under God's direction." - I Peter 1:20-21 (The Message)

[strandinthewind]

Carne - I am pretty sure thousands of crucifixions took place under Pilate in that area of the world (Judea). So, it is possible that Jesus was cruicified by the Jews under Pilate if he was indeed punished according to the Scripture.

You, as always , raise an interesting issue in that I think the whole Pilate washing his hands thing and the blood on the Jews thing was a perhaps due to Christianity first got its major start in Rome (it had been spreading elsewhere - but Constantine's adoption of it set it in stone so to speak). What better way to seduce the Romans into Christianity and away from Judaism at the same time than by effectively exonerating Pilate and instead blaming the Jews by saying Pilate gave the Jews the choice to let Jesus go, but they instead chose as a public group to crucify Him. That kind of makes sense to me.

Also, Jesus clearly was a Jew and His mission was not to overturn Judaism. For example, in Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." He then makes a new covenant between God (which He is part of) and mankind. Thus, Jesus makes the Old Testament somehwhat irrelevant in that He is what the Old Testament was talking about and He sets forth some codes to live by (See Matthew 5:17-46.

In sum, I think there is a greater overall thruth in The Bible that cannot be denied at least to me. I mean if we all strived to be Christlike and minister to the poor and try to help our fellow man without hate, the world would be a better place. But, people do not do that. They take a literal translation of The Bible when it suits them (hating gay people) and ignore the parts that are inconvenience (animal sacrifice, eye for an eye, stoning both the adulterer and adultress, marrying your sister, etc.).

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by wondergirl9847
I believe in the literal translation of the Bible because it says to.

"First, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation. No prophecy ever originated from humans. Instead, it was given by the Holy Spirit as humans spoke under God's direction." - I Peter 1:20-21 (The Message)

Hmm... what about the prophecies predating Peter?

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Hmm... what about the prophecies predating Peter?

And Christ said He fulfilled the prophecies in Matthew 5:17-18?

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Carne - I am pretty sure thousands of crucifixions took place under Pilate in that area of the world (Judea). So, it is possible that Jesus was cruicified by the Jews under Pilate if he was indeed punished according to the Scripture.

Yes, it is possible. I left that door open. What I suggest can't possibly have happened is the resurrection. Nor the immaculate conception. Nor the ascendance to heaven by Jesus and, later, Mary. Sorry, didn't happen.

What better way to seduce the Romans into Christianity and away from Judaism at the same time than by effectively exonerating Pilate and instead blaming the Jews by saying Pilate gave the Jews the choice to let Jesus go, but they instead chose as a public group to crucify Him. That kind of makes sense to me.

That is pretty much historically established. But with hindsight, it is questionable Pilate, who was considered a fairly tough character, would have abdicated this punishment to the Jews. Crucifixions, after all, were a Roman punishment. Also, the gospel would have us believe that Pilate was open to the idea that Jesus was the Messiah, the king of the Jews. A pagan Roman believing in the Messiah? A Roman actually caring that someone proclaimed himself king of the Jews? Questionable. So either Pilate saw the whole thing through or it didn't happen.

In sum, I think there is a greater overall thruth in The Bible that cannot be denied at least to me. I mean if we all strived to be Christlike and minister to the poor and try to help our fellow man without hate, the world would be a better place.

I'm all for that, my friend.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
And Christ said He fulfilled the prophecies in Matthew 5:17-18?

Yes. My point was about the reference to the Holy Spirit. That is a Christian invention. So how could the Holy Spirit have been the bearer of all prophecies?

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Yes. My point was about the reference to the Holy Spirit. That is a Christian invention. So how could the Holy Spirit have been the bearer of all prophecies?

Well, the Holy Trinity is the Christian invention. But the Old Testament refers to Ruah or "God's Breath," which has been analogized to the Holy Spirit. It is an interesting concept because God himself appears throughout the Old Testament in a different forms (burning bush, pillar of fire, etc.) . Yet God breathed life into Adam, etc. So, the Holy Spirit was there.

Here is an article from a website I know nothing about that goes into this

http://servus.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/jub/JUBpizz.html

Can you tell I find all of this fascinating!!!!!

[wondergirl9847]

When Jesus came before Pilate, he said, "Do you know that I have the power to crucify You, and power to release You?" Jesus replied, "You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore, the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin." - John 19: 10-11

It was all supposed to happen the way it did. Pilate was supposed to ALLOW him to be crucified.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
Well, the Holy Trinity is the Christian invention. But the Old Testament refers to Ruah or "God's Breath," which has been analogized to the Holy Spirit. It is an interesting concept because God himself appears throughout the Old Testament in a different forms (burning bush, pillar of fire, etc.) . Yet God breathed life into Adam, etc. So, the Holy Spirit was there.

Here is an article from a website I know nothing about that goes into this

http://servus.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/jub/JUBpizz.html

Can you tell I find all of this fascinating!!!!!

Frankly, I'm just a little shocked to find that the Holy Spirit is something that can be treated with a drop of Listerine.

[Oops... was that blasphemy?]

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by wondergirl9847
It was all supposed to happen the way it did. Pilate was supposed to ALLOW him to be crucified.

Almost like they were following a script. Yes?