"I came to bury Caesar, not to praise him."

[gldstwmn]

So here it is. If you wish to discuss the Reagan era good or bad then this is the place. For those of you who are going to scream that this is inappropriate, I don't see how having a discussion of this man's legacy is in poor taste.
While I am sorry for his family's loss, many people will take this time as an opportunity to immortalize President Reagan. Those of you too young to remember might want a more objective view of what went down from 1980-1988.
Reagan was elected after what is now referred to as the "October Surprise," an event which followed the kidnapping of 52 Americans at the US Embassy.
While then President Carter worked tirelesssly to bring the hostages home, including a failed rescue mission and an agreement in October 1980 (one month before the election) to unfreeze Iran's assests in exchange for safe return of the hostages, they were never released until the day Reagan was sworn in as President. Carter's seeming failure to bring the hostages home cost him the election.
It's been widely reported that in October of 1980, George H.W. Bush, then the vice presidential candidate, took a secret trip to Paris to meet with envoys of the Iranian government and cut a deal with them in exchange for arms and money from the US to hold the hostages until after the election.
Reagan's presidency saw the onset of AIDS, which he completely ignored, letting it rage out of control because it was mainly considered by his administration to kill only homosexuals and intravenous drug users. He was also responsible for the largest budget deficits of the time and he gutted FDR's New Deal programs. One large side effect of this was that residents of state and federally funded mental institutions were turned out onto the street creating a homeless population as yet unseen by America.
Then there was Iran-Contra and the myth that he won us the Cold War. Anyone want to give their input on those?
I wish I could find something positive about his presidency to post but I can't. Reagan was Godfather of what we now know as the NeoCon movement.
"Friends, Romans, country men, lend me your ears; I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him. The evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft interred with their bones; so let it be with Caesar."

[dissention]

Reagan was a man who only thought of himself, first and foremost, as evidenced back in the fifties when McCarthy was holding his witch trials. Reagan readily accused other actors and actresses of being communists when called upon.

Contrary to popular belief, he did not end the Cold War. The Soviet Union imploded, with really no significant help for Reagan or his administration.

His involvement with Iran Contra affair is one of the most sickening things a president has ever had a hand in. He should've been impeached and tried by a jury.

He was biased against gay men and women and waited years to finally help fight the AIDs virus when he could have done somehting to stop its spread.

His presidency was the beginning of the Invasion of the Neocons, a terrible invasion which has crippled our country and it's people.

[GypsySorcerer]

I have nothing against Reagan and I respected him. I will say this, though: When Reagan was elected, in my opinion, that ended the moderate wing of the Republican Party's prominence. In fact, every Democrat I've ever asked said they preferred Nixon over Reagan.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by GypsySorcerer

I have nothing against Reagan and I respected him. I will say this, though: When Reagan was elected, in my opinion, that ended the moderate wing of the Republican Party's prominence. In fact, every Democrat I've ever asked said they preferred Nixon over Reagan.

Give the lady a cigar!

[DeeGeMe]

For those of you too young to remember, or for those who have a faulty memory:

1.First to turn America into a DEBTOR nation
2. First to increase DEBT faster than growth of national income in eight years
3. First to increase DEBT faster than growth of gdp over eight years
4. First to double the deficit in just eigh t years
5. First to “almost�: triple the national DEBT in just eight years
6. First to increase SPENDING by 80%--over 8 years.
7. First to SPEND more in eight years than was spent in prior 50 years.
8. First to have “real� INTEREST RATES of 8% after averaging 1% over 35 years.
9. First to keep PRIME INTEREST RATES at 20%.
10.First to over value the dollar to the yen at rate of 262 yen to 1 dollar.
11.First to have served as Governor and increase STATE SPENDING by 112%
12.First to have HOME LOAN INTEREST RATES as high as 16%
13. First to CUT TAXES by 60% for his rich pals
14. First to allow the SAVINGS AND LOAN INDUSTRY to be raided after signing a deregulatory bill and proclaiming “I think we have hit the jackpot�. Come and get it the vaults are unguarded.
15. First to deal with TERRORISTS
16. First to send an AUTOGRAPHED BIBLE to a man he called “The Satan of Terrorists�.
17. First to have an ADMIRAL plead the Fifth Amendment.
18. First to have a stealing, lying, gutless wife abusing MARINE LT. COLONEL plead the Fifth Amendment.
19. First to have a “sitting� CABINET MEMBER INDICTED
20. First to have an ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE INDICTED.
21. First to have an ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE SENT TO PRISON.
22. First to have over 100 MEMBERS OF AN ADMINISTRATION CHARGED WITH CRIMES..
23. First to have more members of his administration charged with crimes than CUMULATIVE TOTAL OF ALL OTHER PRESIDENTS in the twentieth century
24. First to set a record for the LARGEST ONE DAY PERCENTAGE DECLINE in the DOW in history. 10-19-87
25. First to have over $10,000,000 INCREASE IN WEALTH from serving for 8 years as president.
26. First to testify �under oath� 130 times that �I DON’T REMEMBER� .
27. First to have an Admiral with a photographic memory testify 128 times “ I DON’T REMEMBER�.
28. First to undergo BRAIN SURGERY a few months after leaving office. No pain no gain.
29. First to, repeatedly, FALSIFY HIS WIFE’S AGE. As tho anyone cared.
30. First to promote his religious faith and never have an ACTIVE CHURCH MEMBERSHIP.
31. First to never use the term JESUS CHRIST in speeches.
32. First to seek GUIDANCE FROM THE STARS not from God
33. First to have had a SHOTGUN WEDDING.
34. First to have worked as a SHILL in Las Vegas.
35. First to call a Stealing, Lying, Psychotic, wife abusing Marine a “LIAR.
36. First to have been OPENLY ALIENATED from his children.
37. First To have served with ALZHIMERS
38. First to have UNEMPLOYMENT AT 10.8% since great depression.
39. First to attack a small unprotected nation with 88,000 inhabitants and 10,000 bb guns then PROCLAIM -“America stands tall again�— “we have whipped the Vietnam Syndrome�-we have defeated communism�. Gosh! What if we had whipped Cyprus?.
40. #1-in FARM FORECLOSURES
41. #1-In BANK FAILURES
42. #1-In SAVINGS AND LOAN FAILURES
43. #1-In Percent increase in PERSONAL BANKRUPTCIES
44. #1-In recorded MISSTATEMENTS
45. #1-In never having a single press conference in which he did not make at least one or more INCORRECT STATEMENTS.
46. #1-In needing a staff person standby during press conferences to tell the press “WHAT HE REALLY MEANT�.
47. #1-In having SERVICEMEN KILLED during peacetime.
48. #1-In largest DROP IN POPULARITY in one week.
49. #1-In being first to HONOR NAZI STORM TROOPERS by calling them� Innocent Victims�
50. #1-In being first to be labeled “BRAIN DEAD AFFABLE DUNCE’ by this writer.
51. First to lie-over and over-to reporters “I DO NOT DYE MY HAIR my barber uses a special shampoo�
52. First to have a wife who �forced� him to WEAR THREE SUITS in one day
53. First to boast “Not bad for a DUMB GUY who worked only 20 hours per week�.
54. First to have his wife sit nearby and WHISPER ANSWERS to questions
55. First to FALL ASLEEP while the Pope spoke
56. First to invite the Pope to visit the White House and “BRING THE WIFE AND KIDS�
57. First to have his press secretary remove him from the microphone because he could not answer questions. Then, as the reporter
yelled out “answer my question� he replied “MY HANDLERS WON’T LET ME SPEAK�. Quick get the white coat.
58. First 20th Century president to have historians RATE HIM BELOW every president of the 20th except for Richard Nixon. 1994 Poll.
59. First to give us a First Lady with a past reputation for giving the BEST BJ in Hollywood.
60. First to suggest his eldest son undergo PSYCHIATRIC examination
61. First to have been voted in British polls (twice) as the �MOST FEARED LEADER IN THE WORLD� sic em Rambo.

62. First to serve as Governor on a �conservative� platform and INCREASE SPENDING BY 112%.
63. First Governor TO INCREASE personal income taxes by 60%, tax increase on cigarettes by 200%, state tax collections by 152%.
64. First to have a Special Assistant say on national TV “sometimes you had to HIT HIM ON THE HEAD with a 2 x 4 to get his attention�
65. First to have his official biographer state on national TV ‘After he was shot in 1981he GOT SLOWER AND SLOWER EACH YEAR. His speech got slower. He deliberated more and he hesitated more when he spoke. He lost his physical quickness and would not make decisions on the spot. It was a very, very slow and steady mental and physical decline�.
66. First to have a POPULARITY RATING OF ONLY 35% after his first two years in office.
67. First president to have been DIVORCED
68) First President to have the Geriatrics Department of a major
university study his behavior and conclude that AFTER THREE YEARS IN OFFICE HE HAD ALZHIEMERS.

[markolas]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

He was also responsible for the largest budget deficits of the time and he gutted FDR's New Deal programs. One large side effect of this was that residents of state and federally funded mental institutions were turned out onto the street creating a homeless population as yet unseen by America.

And then, he had the gall to go on national television and say that the homeless were "homeless by choice."

Yes, it's sad that he had Alzheimer's and that he died the way he did, but it's not as sad as the thousands and thousands of AIDS victims who died just as excruciatingly as he did, while he and his administration sat back and did nothing.

He was not a great president, or a great human being, or a great anything, and it annoys me to no end to see all these articles gushing over his alleged "achievements," while ignoring the numerous people who suffered as the result of his policies.

[darklinensuit]

I can't think of the guy without thinking of others' comments.
I highly recommend these:

- Linda Ellerbee's description (in And So It Goes) of Nancy sitting under Cocoa Puffs while RR shot a commercial.

- Whoopi Goldberg's 1988 act, describing how AIDS got any funding.

- Tip O'Neal's autobiography (Man Of The House), describing how his friend Reagan would make fun of him in the press and how Reagan napped through --- well, let's just say through.

- Geraldine Ferraro's more serious autobiography, describing Mondale's frustration.

Also, who can forget Pat Schroeder calling RR The Teflon President (nothing stuck to him).

- Jake

[strandinthewind]

I thought his self-deprecating humor was priceless - in fact I miss it. It was a quality I admired in him. As for his political stuff, there are good and bad things. All in all, I'd give him a B, mainly for the fall of the Soviet Union, building up our military, the ability to make all politicians like him on a personal level despite any political disagreements, his admiration for FDR, and giving the nation what seemed like hope again after the Nixon fiasco, the inept Carter administration (and mind you I really like and admire Jimmy Carter - he was just to pure and puritanical IMO to be effective in D.C.), and the Iranian hostage fiasco. The bad things were the poor economy (which I never credit or discredit solely to the Pres.), the rise of the current push to a Theocracy. I guess the AIDS crisis was a bad deal for him as well. He should have acted sooner. That he did not is sad because many may have altered their behavior and not contracted the virus had they known earlier. Having said that, many govt.'s on the local levels did try to act earlier but the gay community would have none of it - not really their fault because not much was really known for sure about the disease and thus, the acts of the local govt.'s were seen as an oppressive acts attempting to shove gays back into the closet and gay rights were just really coming about, etc.

Note: this is my opinion and I am not going to debate it, lest we have WWIII

BTW - I think Nancy ALWAYS looked fantastic (yea I know "on the backs of the people" but hey all do it ) and say what you want about her, but a friend of mine was in her personal security detail and said, years later and under no apparent duress, that she was one of the classiest and nicest people he ever knew much less worked for. Interestingly, I loved the fact that she had an astrologer and the fact that she seemingly bucks the far right wing of today a la the FDR off of and RR onto the currency.

[dissention]

Originally Posted by markolas

And then, he had the gall to go on national television and say that the homeless were "homeless by choice."

Yes, it's sad that he had Alzheimer's and that he died the way he did, but it's not as sad as the thousands and thousands of AIDS victims who died just as excruciatingly as he did, while he and his administration sat back and did nothing.

He was not a great president, or a great human being, or a great anything, and it annoys me to no end to see all these articles gushing over his alleged "achievements," while ignoring the numerous people who suffered as the result of his policies.

Bravo. You rock.

[estranged4life]

Originally Posted by gldstwmn

Reagan's presidency saw the onset of AIDS, which he completely ignored, letting it rage out of control because it was mainly considered by his administration to kill only homosexuals and intravenous drug users.[/I]

to see how Reagan ignored the onset of AIDS is watch the HBO movie "And the Band Played On" (Which I say should be a recommended movie for all to see) or read the book of the same name by Randy Shilts on which this mini-series was based upon (Who succumbed to AIDS in 1994).

Brian j.

[Hawkeye]

to see how Reagan ignored the onset of AIDS is watch the HBO movie "And the Band Played On"

.
.
And the Band played On. Is anyoen else singing Come when they read that.

[Hawkeye]

Didn't the Sovt Union collapse during Bush senior's presidency.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

Didn't the Sovt Union collapse during Bush senior's presidency.

The actual demise was spread out over time after 1987 (the Baltics) and concluded in 1991, during the first Bush Administration. But clearly RR was the initial and most significant advocate - I mean he suggested in one summit (Iceland ?) that both America and the USSR disarm the nukes (not all but a bunch). Interestingly, the Soviet Union was going to collapse anyway - it could no longer function economically or politically. So, from that aspect, RR did not really do all that much outside of US economic trade policies, etc. But, RR did significantly facilitate it and helped the USSR through it by making it America's, if you will, friend - at least through his freindship with MG. The Vatican also had a significant hand in the demise of the USSR as well because the RCC HATED the USSR and did everything it could to facilitate its fall. In sum, no one entity or person can claim sole responsibility for the fall of the USSR other than their version of communism did not work, but it can be said with accuracy that RR did a bunch to facilitate it.

Here are some websites on the demise of the USSR:

http://www.coldwar.org/articles/90s/...iet_union.php3

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/storie...08/21/015.html

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/2612360

There are many, many more.

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

Didn't the Sovt Union collapse during Bush senior's presidency.

Technically, yes it did. Bush had been in office for almost 2 years at the time of the collapse. However, Reagan is largely credited with "bankrupting the Soviet Union." It simply isn't true. Soviet military spending stayed the same as it ever was during the entire Reagan presidency. The collapse of the Soviet Union can be attributed to the flawed Communist/Totalitarian economic system under which it operated.
Reagan did institute what is known as the Reagan Doctrine to fight anti-communist forces around the world including Nicaragua and most importantly, Afghanistan. This little deal our government had with the mujahideen in Afghansitan brought an end product that probably was not forseen at that time: His name was Osama Bin Laden.

[sara1998]

Thanks for the insight, everyone. I remember Regan in office, but am too young to know what went on. I am sick of hearing the praise of that man, because I know no US president can be put up as high on a pedistal as Regan has been.

Maria