Tusk at 40: FM's defining record

[tabruns]

Just read GET TUSKED.

Interesting to get an inside view of how that album went down. Buckingham going back and forth between wanting to do his own thing and then back to a more band approach and back again was interesting.

Also Caillat saying at one point they had at least four tracked songs from each of the songwriters and they could have stopped there with a single album and more balanced input from each. I've always wondered what songs Mac would have gone with, had they decided TUSK was going to be a single album.

Apparently part of the reason Nicks has fewer songs on the album is because Buckingham wasn't interested in working on some of them ("The Dealer" presented as an example).

Other bits:

McVie thinking "Honey Hi" could be a hit. Also thinking "Storms" sounded "dodgy" when she first heard it.

"What Makes You Think You're The One" was a lyrical and musical slam on Nicks, down to Buckingham deliberately playing simplistic piano and doing a vibrato with his voice.

Caillat apparently thinking that several of Buckingham's songs would have sounded amazing if Buckingham hadn't insisted on "do everything 180 from where it should be".

J. McVie saying "Never Forget" "sounded awful" when they first worked on it.

Caillat's implied criticism that as the album grew into a double it skewed towards Buckingham, noting that none of Buckingham's songs were rejected, 1 of McVie's was (wonder what song that is?), and multiple Nicks songs were.

Combination of "TUSK actually sold well" and "here's why TUSK didn't sell well" presented: TUSK has sold 6.6 million and if you add in singles and "other formats" (?) sales are 9.2 million. Reasons/excuses why it didn't - Pushed out by Warners as a way too expensive double album; album played over the radio in its entirety before release; left-turn musically too much for some fans.

Overall I was surprised that the band comes off as more productive than has generally been understood, at least when they'd get down to tracking a particular song. I also thought there'd have been more in-studio viciousness presented than there was - but maybe Caillat just didn't dwell on that.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by tabruns

"What Makes You Think You're The One" was a lyrical and musical slam on Nicks, down to Buckingham deliberately playing simplistic piano and doing a vibrato with his voice.

Show of hands: Who listened to WMYTYTO after reading this quote?

[elle]

Originally Posted by UnwindedDreams

I want to state I disagree with this bullying of Elle. Would a male also be called the same in this context? Or demanded of to answer to someone here.

thank you. unfortunately there's too much bullying in general, these days. people resorting to name calling when they have no good counter-arguments.

i don't think in Steve's case it's misogyny. just exasperation on having to backtrack on points he's trying to push.

[elle]

Originally Posted by jmn3

Also being fair, I agree with you that Lindsey's Fleetwood Mac songs would have benefited by including more of Christine and Stevie's voices over the years. This particular group of 5 has always been better together than any one of the individuals on their own. They all brought some critical ingredient to the pot that made those first albums fire. And yes, that includes Stevie. She's become an insufferable shrew
and her crap over the last two decades have resulted in a creative permafrost on the band culminating in her getting Lindsey fired and then going out with a ridiculous, unnecessary, and nonsensical version of the band in 2018-19. However, her input and presence was key to their achievements over the years.

agree with almost everything in this post.

the only part i'm not so sure about is "always" in the sentence i bolded. while the sum was definitely better than the separate parts initially, after Rumours, huge fame and huge egos, it all fell apart. here and there glimpses of it resurfaced on some of the songs, but never on the whole album anymore, with all 5. FM fans keep trying to re-catch that lightening in the bottle and keep claiming that can still be the case. Lindsey and Mick and Christine on and off kept trying since the Dance, too. it didn't happen. it's been 40 years plus since it last happened.

[jmn3]

Originally Posted by elle

agree with almost everything in this post.

the only part i'm not so sure about is "always" in the sentence i bolded. while the sum was definitely better than the separate parts initially, after Rumours, huge fame and huge egos, it all fell apart. here and there glimpses of it resurfaced on some of the songs, but never on the whole album anymore, with all 5. FM fans keep trying to re-catch that lightening in the bottle and keep claiming that can still be the case. Lindsey and Mick and Christine on and off kept trying since the Dance, too. it didn't happen. it's been 40 years plus since it last happened.

I think we're actually saying the same thing, elle. My point was that after Rumours, they never really naturally worked together in an organic way (oh god, I sound like LB....where's the cycles?) on an entire album which resulted in the fragmented approach you see on Tusk, Mirage, Tango, Say You Will...with fragmented and disjointed results. It's not bad...I mean Tusk has amazing moments..Gypsy is one of the most beautifully produced songs that I know...and I love pieces of the others from each of the songwriters. But there hasn't been another Rumours and there won't be. You're right, they've been trying to recapture that for 40+ years and have failed each time because their egos, solo careers, and competition with and hatred of each other just kept getting in the way. Once they made money on The Dance and saw the market for money following in the steps of The Eagles, it was too late. There was little desire to even try to let the creative juices fly. When they tried with Say You Will...it led to Stevie icing anything further.

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by jmn3

I think we're actually saying the same thing, elle. My point was that after Rumours, they never really naturally worked together in an organic way (oh god, I sound like LB....where's the cycles?) on an entire album which resulted in the fragmented approach you see on Tusk, Mirage, Tango, Say You Will...with fragmented and disjointed results. It's not bad...I mean Tusk has amazing moments..Gypsy is one of the most beautifully produced songs that I know...and I love pieces of the others from each of the songwriters. But there hasn't been another Rumours and there won't be. You're right, they've been trying to recapture that for 40+ years and have failed each time because their egos, solo careers, and competition with and hatred of each other just kept getting in the way. Once they made money on The Dance and saw the market for money following in the steps of The Eagles, it was too late. There was little desire to even try to let the creative juices fly. When they tried with Say You Will...it led to Stevie icing anything further.

They were too old by the Dance, anyway. Not that you can't still be creative, BUT...

I think most artists(not all) have their extremely creative period early on, in their 20's and 30's. When they're still hungry.

Once you're a multimillionaire, there's not much hunger left. Lindsey still had something to prove with Tusk. By Mirage, they'd turned back to formula, trying to recreate the poppy Rumours sound. Sales were just as important as any ground breaking creativity. More important, actually. Praying to the commercial gods...

[ViscountViktor]

Sorry to keep going on but I'm just listening to Tusk and there are so many opportunities for full band harmonies which instead is just Lindsey and his vocal effects, it's actually tragic.

And even when they are harmonising on something like Think About Me, Stevie's part is so low in the mix and is doubled by Lindsey anyway so you can barely hear it.

What a waste. A dysfunctional band with selfish egotistic individuals who hated working together. I wonder why Stevie just sat there and allowed herself to be used so little.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by ViscountViktor

I wonder why Stevie just sat there and allowed herself to be used so little.

She was busy setting up a solo career.

[ViscountViktor]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

She was busy setting up a solo career.

Easy to see why. Most popular member of the group and not being used in favour of about 8 Lindseys on each track.

[tabruns]

Originally Posted by ViscountViktor

Easy to see why. Most popular member of the group and not being used in favour of about 8 Lindseys on each track.

Well I think there was a slow transition from being unsure of herself during the FLEETWOOD MAC album to getting increasingly fed up with how the rest of the band would tend to dismiss her contributions.

Another factor could be that outside influences like Petty and the guy who eventually set up Modern were all seeing the dynamic in the band and stunned that the most popular band member had so little say in the studio.

Caillat references this too when he talks a bit about the band would be dismissive of Nicks's songs, saying "eventually this would come back to bite them in the ass" (meaning, it would push Nicks to seek out a solo career and launch BELLA DONNA).

[elle]

[QUOTE=tabruns;1258041Another factor could be that outside influences like Petty and the guy who eventually set up Modern were all seeing the dynamic in the band and stunned that the most popular band member had so little say in the studio.).[/QUOTE]

Can you elaborate a bit more on this? Very interesting! I always heard Stevie fans riffing on this ( as being a great example in this thread as well as during Micks m&gs where Stevie fans refused to believe Muck when he said Stevie is not a musical director etc for their live shows) but I never heard of Petty or any of the musicians espouse that Stevie should have more control in the studio with FM because she’s the most popular?

[UnwindedDreams]

Originally Posted by elle

I never heard of Petty or any of the musicians espouse that Stevie should have more control in the studio with FM because she’s the most popular?

Yes, the only thing I can recall Tom saying about Stevie's studio life with FM was his quote from I think Stevie's RS profile:
“Stevie and Lindsey both made really good records on their own, but when we all get excited is when they get together,” says Petty. “As with a lot of bands, when they realize that they’re gonna have to spend their lives together, they get a little grumpy with each other, because they know they’re joined at the hip.”

[ViscountViktor]

Just listening to Angel and the way that Lindsey joins Stevie for the chorus, and then Christine comes in for the second verse. That is the kind of vocal combinations that make the band magic, but these moments are so rare after Rumours due to egos and hating working with each other.

[johnnystorms]

Originally Posted by ViscountViktor

Easy to see why. Most popular member of the group and not being used in favour of about 8 Lindseys on each track.

Absolutely agree. She was Lindsey's 'ex' and Chris' "little sister" in the initial band dynamic, and after becoming the breakout star to the public, the internal band hierarchy never changed. Sooooooo…. she went her "own way".

[elle]

Originally Posted by johnnystorms

Absolutely agree. She was Lindsey's 'ex' and Chris' "little sister" in the initial band dynamic, and after becoming the breakout star to the public, the internal band hierarchy never changed. Sooooooo…. she went her "own way".

i think you are onto something. the main band dynamic didn't really change for decades, but it was just slowly shifting. it did very much shift for Chris when she left and came back though, she lost all her power - or she perceived that she lost it.

the only part of what you wrote that is inaccurate is that Stevie went her own way. if she did, neither Stevie fans or Fleetwood Mac fans would have a problem with it. and in the band, only FM member who would have a problem with it would be money thirsty Mick.

instead of going her own way - which she fully could have when she was on the top, and it would have made way healthier atmosphere for everyone (just watch recording of Buckingham McVie video!), seems she was bent on proving to everyone inside the band (well, lets be real - mainly to Lindsey!) that she can and should be in control of Fleetwood Mac, and everyone outside that she IS Fleetwood Mac.

took her decades, and finally she was successful in 2018. now, Mick doesn't even have a control of Fleetwood Mac social media anymore. they post Stevie solo stuff, but they never posted anything about Mick's big London tribute to original Fleetwood Mac.