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  #61  
Old 03-18-2005, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Stew
I'm a Virgo... it's in our nature to investigate and thoroughly examine that which isn't readily understandable.

I've always loved contradictions within people... they fascinate me.
Whatever floats your boat. I don't take things too seriously, so I don't waste my time on understanding such trivial things.

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Originally Posted by Johnny Stew
She's been "self-centered" in her lyrics since Day One, when she wrote, "I've Loved And I've Lost."

Her lyrics, by and large, have ALWAYS been about her and her experiences... how something made her feel, how she coped (or didn't cope), and so on.

Which is why I don't get the notion that her lyrics suddenly became "self-centered" in 1989.
I disagree. While she may have been writing about herself and her experiences, she wrote them in a way that was universal; people could identify with her songs. I certainly did. She eventually lost a lot of that ability and began to write songs that not so many people could indentify with, in my opinion. It actually began with Sisters of the Moon, worked it's way up to I Sing For the Sings and Welcome To the Room...Sara, and then just exploded with the odious offle that is Ghosts and Two Kinds of Love (hence my reference to '89).

Please spare me the arguments that you can relate to them, because you're a die-hard fan; you look for that kind of stuff.

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Originally Posted by Johnny Stew
I'd love it if only it weren't so plodding and boring.
Ah, so you do understand how I feel about Stevie!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Stew
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying you HAVE to like the song... all I'm saying is that I do believe, in my interpretation of it, that Stevie's writing about a childish relationship. She's writing about people demonstrating practically the biggest level of immaturity adults can possibly demonstrate: treating someone else as property that you have "rights" to.

So, yes, the characters in the song, and the whole "you can't love him, you can't have him" lyrics sound immature... but, to me, that's the point.
Good, because I don't like the song itself. I like the cheesy production and I adore her vocal, but that's it. I don't agree with your interpretation of it, but we can just put more notches in our respective bedposts over that one instead of delving into it for 87 more pages as if it actually had some deep meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Stew
I'm not saying no one's allowed to miss Chris... I miss her too. I'm merely responding to the idea that Fleetwood Mac is no good without Christine.
Anyone can believe that if they'd like, but I disagree with it.

When Stevie left, I initially felt that Fleetwood Mac would just plain suck without her... then I got over myself and gave the current lineup a chance, instead of wishing for what it had been in the past. No, it "wasn't the same"... but then things change, and nothing ever stays exactly the way it was.
I gave the current lineup a chance. I miss Chris.

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Originally Posted by Johnny Stew
I don't think everyone's stinks.
Certainly not mine, bub.
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  #62  
Old 03-18-2005, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by dissention
Whatever floats your boat. I don't take things too seriously, so I don't waste my time on understanding such trivial things.
Lest you have the wrong idea, I don't take that kind of stuff seriously either... I simply enjoy it and find it fascinating.

Some folks would wonder why we waste any time at all talking to relative strangers, day in and day out, about some senior citizens who record pop music.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dissention
She eventually lost a lot of that ability and began to write songs that not so many people could indentify with, in my opinion. It actually began with Sisters of the Moon, worked it's way up to I Sing For the Sings and Welcome To the Room...Sara, and then just exploded with the odious offle that is Ghosts and Two Kinds of Love (hence my reference to '89).

Please spare me the arguments that you can relate to them, because you're a die-hard fan; you look for that kind of stuff.
But, as I've said before, the flaw in your argument is the simple fact that I was NOT a die-hard fan the first time I heard "I Sing For The Things"... and 'Mirror' was only the second new Stevie solo album that was released in my early years as a fan, so the songs contained therein could have VERY easily turned me off of her, never to return again (as has happened over the years with many singers I previously "loved").

But I DID relate to songs like "I Sing For The Things" and "When I See You Again" and "Ghosts," even without being a decades-long diehard. And I didn't have to be a rich and famous straight woman in her early 40s to relate to them... I related to the very real longings, desires, fears, etc., that she was singing about. I related to trying to "just get through the day," and I related to depending on music and art to fill the emptiness I was feeling in my own life as I struggled with my sexual orientation and being ostracized by my peers.

I became a diehard because of my love for those songs... not the other way around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dissention
I don't agree with your interpretation of it, but we can just put more notches in our respective bedposts over that one instead of delving into it for 87 more pages as if it actually had some deep meaning.
As with "Joan Of Arc," you don't agree with my interpretations of Stevie's songs, because you've got her in a little box that you never let her out of.

Nothing in life has any more meaning than that which we attribute to it.
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  #63  
Old 03-18-2005, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by HomerMcvie
Steal Your Heart Away is my favorite song on SYW.
I love the song too, especially the demo where Chris' voice is more clearly audible. That's probably the track where I miss her more. For the rest of SYW the music is changed, the concept is changed. I can't really say I miss her because she simply isn't part of that spectrum.

Romy
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  #64  
Old 03-18-2005, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by dissention
I am, hence my adoration for Lindsey, Bowie, and Debbie. I love extremes, but Stevie's extreme schtick is too much in regards to Say You Will. Illume.Is.Just.Too.Much.

I'm all about Smile At You and Running Through the Garden and Goodbye Baby, which I consider to be pretty extreme Stevie tracks (along the lines of stuff she should do more often), but when she starts getting into her flowery schtick like Silver Girl and Say You Will and Thrown Down (and her childish Everybody Finds Out, albeit with a phenomenal vocal), I feel a wretch coming on.

I find Illume extremely violent, with a lot in common with Joan Of Arc. It's a slap on the face, even if the arrangement destructures its strength in an unbearable way. When I listen it on Destiny Rules with only Lindsey' guitar and especially John's bass, it takes my breath away.

Romy
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  #65  
Old 03-18-2005, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnny Stew
...And I didn't have to be a rich and famous straight woman in her early 40s to relate to them... I related to the very real longings, desires, fears, etc., that she was singing about. I related to trying to "just get through the day," and I related to depending on music and art to fill the emptiness I was feeling in my own life as I struggled with my sexual orientation and being ostracized by my peers.

I became a diehard because of my love for those songs... not the other way around.


I just can't nod enough!

And y'all don't stop now! This debate is absolutely fascinating to me!!!
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  #66  
Old 03-18-2005, 10:53 PM
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Here is my two cents.

Fm has always been a band with a knack for changing their lineups every so often and evolving. I would like to think that when Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham joined Fleetwood Mac that most of the people that were pining for Peter Green to return liked the new lineup and got over the whole Peter Green leaving thing. As for Christine how many songs can you honestly say are not just a light breezy pope confection. Easy on the ears but not much more. I am not saying that that is a bad thing but for anyone to say that LB and SN have nothing to offer as part of Fm is stpid. While SYW was good I believe it MAY have been even better with her catchy pop songs added to the mix. But honestly can anyone say that SYW is not as good as Tango and even better then BTM or Time?

I am certain that if she rejoined the band everyone here would be begging her to agree to tour so we could see the fab five again. Even if she did agree to tour we all know that the band would only trott out the same old hits that have been done for years.

The point is I wish she would rejoin the band for one last hurrah but we know that will never happen. So I have moved on and I think that anyone here who thinks FM is nothing without her is not being fair to the band.

Matt
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  #67  
Old 03-18-2005, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnny Stew
Some folks would wonder why we waste any time at all talking to relative strangers, day in and day out, about some senior citizens who record pop music.
Because we're weird.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Stew
But, as I've said before, the flaw in your argument is the simple fact that I was NOT a die-hard fan the first time I heard "I Sing For The Things"... and 'Mirror' was only the second new Stevie solo album that was released in my early years as a fan, so the songs contained therein could have VERY easily turned me off of her, never to return again (as has happened over the years with many singers I previously "loved").

But I DID relate to songs like "I Sing For The Things" and "When I See You Again" and "Ghosts," even without being a decades-long diehard. And I didn't have to be a rich and famous straight woman in her early 40s to relate to them... I related to the very real longings, desires, fears, etc., that she was singing about. I related to trying to "just get through the day," and I related to depending on music and art to fill the emptiness I was feeling in my own life as I struggled with my sexual orientation and being ostracized by my peers.
I'm glad you take pleasure in them, honestly. As is painfully obvious, I do not. I am of the mind that as soon as an artist begins to write songs about being in a band or being a singer or being famous, they don't have much to offer me. I find it self-indulgent on their part and have no use for it. I don't care if you talked to your famous friend last night or if he wouldn't write your damned songs. It bores me. The underlying feelings are universal, of course, but the ways in which they are being presented turn me off and therefore make me lose interest.

The dude from Franz Ferdinand has a great quote on this very topic, but I'll spare you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Stew
I became a diehard because of my love for those songs... not the other way around.
What's your excuse for That Made Me Stronger?

You've told me before that you listen to Stevie to get to know who she is and her life experiences, I do not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Stew
As with "Joan Of Arc," you don't agree with my interpretations of Stevie's songs, because you've got her in a little box that you never let her out of.
No, I just think they're bogus interpretations.

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Originally Posted by Johnny Stew
Nothing in life has any more meaning than that which we attribute to it.
Dude, rent I Heart Huckabees.
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  #68  
Old 03-18-2005, 11:24 PM
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double u.hypercriticalcakes.dissention.debbieD/nothingisgoodunlessIlikeit.blah
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  #69  
Old 03-18-2005, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Serrart
I find Illume extremely violent, with a lot in common with Joan Of Arc. It's a slap on the face, even if the arrangement destructures its strength in an unbearable way. When I listen it on Destiny Rules with only Lindsey' guitar and especially John's bass, it takes my breath away.

Romy
I find Illume extremely grating and ridiculous. Stevie gets kudos from me for putting out something so wildly different from anything else she's ever done before, though. It certainly shocked the **** out of me when I first heard it. If she took risks like that on a regular basis, I'd be pretty stoked, regardless of the quality of the material. Just leave the VSO gimmicks alone, kids.

It also has some of my favorite lyrics from her (though I remember Carne absolutely despised them ):

I will not take you for granted
I wouldn't trade you for jade
Or for diamonds
Not for one minute
Not for anything
I need you to be there


She can keep the rest, thankyouverymuch.
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  #70  
Old 03-18-2005, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by amber
double u.hypercriticalcakes.dissention.debbieD/nothingisgood.blah
WTF?

I find many things to be very good. They just have to be of high quality for me to like them.
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  #71  
Old 03-18-2005, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by amber
double u.hypercriticalcakes.dissention.debbieD/nothingisgoodunlessIlikeit.blah
Much better.
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  #72  
Old 03-18-2005, 11:31 PM
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WTF?

I find many things to be very good. They just have to be of high quality for me to like them.
dubyadubyadubya.idecidewhatisquality.dissention/notstevie.harsh/debbieD/critical.net[/url]
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  #73  
Old 03-18-2005, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by dissention
What's your excuse for That Made Me Stronger?

"Dreams reoccur in my solitude
Breaking my heart
Injuring my mood
With all of the things that I thought I knew
It was you"


Great general verse about the pain of unrequited love, IMO. As a homosexual, I never tire of that theme.

"Well, I remember
You caught my eye
It was late September
It was no surprise
He made me better
His songs were soft and tender sometimes"


This really had an effect on me the first time I heard it. It reminds me of someone I fell for in late September. Too perfect. Also the fact that the person is sometimes soft and tender and sometimes not. :shrug;

"Well the conversations ring in my head
I remember everything that we said
All those tears that we shed"


Nice little universal part about love gone wrong.

"The conversations ring in my head
I remember everything that we said
All those tears that we shed
Don't call me when you're lonely"


I love the addition of the last line. "I remember how heart wrenching it was and I won't forget, so when you decide one night that you're not actually better off alone, please don't call me." (Sorry, that brought back memories).

"Well once more I tell the shadows of my soul
To stay back
Everything has changed now
And I don't want to go back
And nothing you can say can change my mind"


OMG. Oh how I love that. Do I even need to comment on it?

I still think of the whole songwriting thing as an analogy, like you depend upon someone who means the world to you to write your song, or to determine where your life is going and what you do and feel. Then you realize you can write your own song and don't need him or her. That is very liberating. And I really didn't think my interpretation was a stretch. I like it when it's an analogy instead of someone just telling it like it is. That's one of the big reasons I love her songs, though I know this is not one of the best.

Anyway, I know I've said all this before and nothing I can say is going to make you like that song. It's okay, I just felt like typing.

(Sorry that I did all this in poor Christine's forum. Shall I get into "Only Over You" and "I Do"--totally underrated Christine songs, IMO? Well, I just love those. I have a personal thing with them as well).
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  #74  
Old 03-18-2005, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by dissention
Much better.
You know you love me right now. Go ahead and say it. Pay me my first compliment...
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"Do not be afraid! I am Esteban de la Sexface!"
"In order to live free and happily, you must sacrifice boredom.
It is not always an easy sacrifice"

Whehyll I can do EHYT!! Wehyll I can make it WAHN moh thihme! (wheyllit'sA reayllongwaytogooo! To say goodbhiiy!) -
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  #75  
Old 03-18-2005, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by amber
dubyadubyadubya.idecidewhatisquality.dissention/notstevie.harsh/debbieD/critical.net[/url]
Well, you did recently tell me that I could have been Kael's twin because I don't like anything.
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