Terri Schiavo: Please explain something to me...

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by Mad4stevie

I actually confirmed this information with the ACLU's own website. I did have a full semester in law school on this very topic of capital punishment, which I found fascinating.

There is an issue of whether a state can force medication in order to make an inmate sane enough to execute. The Supremes did not agree to take the case and left it to the state to determine.

I did read it and the issue was slightly different than what you implied. While the Supreme Court did say that the 8th Amendment prohibits execution of mentally insane persons, they had more of an issue at how the Florida Executive branch arrived at its decision to go ahead and execute. Apparently they found fault with the PROCESS, not so much the prisoner's mental health state. I think it would be most interesting to find out what happend to Crazy old Ford....whether he avoided the death penalty in the end or not

also, in CA I believe we do use medication to make a prisoner sane. and then execute. having said that, however, we seem to have the OLDEST prisoners on death row of any state! by that I mean, the average wait time seems to hover around 15 to 20 years! many of these folks DIE first

[dissention]

Originally Posted by Mad4stevie

Wow - now it appears that the Schindler's even have an "evil" purpose.

Don't put words in my mouth, dear, I never said "evil". It couldn't be any more obvious that the Schindler's are in this to promote their ideology, as evidenced by the right-wing fundies that they're carousing about with.

[Mad4stevie]

She has not had a swallow test since 1992.

She has not had any rehab since 1994.

She has be denied the benefit of any new technology to help in evaluation her condition since 2002.

I find it terrible that even if the tube has removed, the judge has denied the ability of anyone to even feed Terri ice chips. Fine, removed the "life support" but why deny the woman the ability to even have ice chips?

Also, if this was truly Terri's wish, why did her husband wait 8 years to disclose that to anyone??

[Mad4stevie]

Originally Posted by dissention

Don't put words in my mouth, dear, I never said "evil". It couldn't be any more obvious that the Schindler's are in this to promote their ideology, as evidenced by the right-wing fundies that they're carousing about with.

"Evil" is my word interpreting your intent.

How can you say that is "obvious" (and that is your word ) that this is their intention? They are dealing with their daughter in a terrible, horrible situation. I don't think anyone can even pretend to understand their motivations unless they have been in the exact same situation.

[Mad4stevie]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

I dont think the Schindlers are motivated by anything other than love and grief over their daughter's condition and the fact that they arent ready to face reality. I think the true evil purpose was exhibited by the gorillas in suits on capitol hill.

I think we agree on this point!

[Mad4stevie]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

also, in CA I believe we do use medication to make a prisoner sane. and then execute. having said that, however, we seem to have the OLDEST prisoners on death row of any state! by that I mean, the average wait time seems to hover around 15 to 20 years! many of these folks DIE first

Yeah - Scott Peterson will never be executed based on those stats!

There must be some tie in regarding the ability to forcibly medicate those on death row for execution - if they could execute someone who was insane without running afoul of the 8th amendment, this would not be an issue for the Court to decide.

[irishgrl]

the onset of her condition is 1990 right? and from a previous post, I learned that the window of effectiveness for therapy closes at approximately 18months.
From your post, it looks as though she had therapy for two years longer than the window was open. She had swallow tests for two years after onset. 12 years of benefit of new technology, including an experimental treatment he flew her to California to perform (see my first post on page 11)
How many YEARS of failure does one need?

If your intent was to paint Michael as an uncaring husband, unwilling to allow therapy or perform tests, I am sorry, I just cant see that you've made your point.

[Mad4stevie]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

the onset of her condition is 1990 right? and from a previous post, I learned that the window of effectiveness for therapy closes at approximately 18months.
From your post, it looks as though she had therapy for two years longer than the window was open. She had swallow tests for two years after onset. 12 years of benefit of new technology, including an experimental treatment he flew her to California to perform (see my first post on page 11)
How many YEARS of failure does one need?

If your intent was to paint Michael as an uncaring husband, unwilling to allow therapy or perform tests, I am sorry, I just cant see that you've made your point.

I am just questioning why he waited for 8 years to disclose her condition. I don't get it. Seems if it were so important he would have done something between the time he ended therapy and 1998. Just my opinion.

My other point was that maybe she should have been allowed more recent testing, if technology would give us a better idea of exactly what is happening with her.

I never understand why, where an irreversible situation is about to occur, people refuse to use technology to get additional information. It makes me think of those judges who deny death row immates the right to DNA testing before they are put to death. All terrible things.

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by Mad4stevie

I am just questioning why he waited for 8 years to disclose her condition. I don't get it. Seems if it were so important he would have done something between the time he ended therapy and 1998. Just my opinion.

My other point was that maybe she should have been allowed more recent testing, if technology would give us a better idea of exactly what is happening with her.

I never understand why, where an irreversible situation is about to occur, people refuse to use technology to get additional information. It makes me think of those judges who deny death row immates the right to DNA testing before they are put to death. All terrible things.

I dont know why Michael did what he did, or when or whatever. Whatever his motivation, he will have to answer for his actions when he meets his maker. Im not going to agonize over his motivations. As for affording Terri the benefit of newer technology, I personally cant see any reason why not, but I am not her guardian. As I said before, Michael seems to be ROCK SOLID in his position that he is only doing what Terri wished. He has fought her parents, the State of Florida (the Legislature and Governor) public opinion, the President of the US and the US Congress. He must have something soul deep he is holding onto in order to be so staunch in the face of such opposition.

His road isnt any easier than the Schindlers ya know.....he once loved this woman.....

[Mad4stevie]

Originally Posted by irishgrl

As I said before, Michael seems to be ROCK SOLID in his position that he is only doing what Terri wished. He has fought her parents, the State of Florida (the Legislature and Governor) public opinion, the President of the US and the US Congress. He must have something soul deep he is holding onto in order to be so staunch in the face of such opposition.

His road isnt any easier than the Schindlers ya know.....he once loved this woman.....

The evidence was only weighed by the original trial judge (Greer). Everyone else has deferred to him.

Except, that the federal court was to conduct a de novo hearing, and given the amount of time that the hearing took (2 hours), there was no way that could have occurred.

[gldstwmn]

[gldstwmn]

[gldstwmn]

[gldstwmn]

Originally Posted by Mad4stevie

Did anyone see the interview with the nurse who treated Terri back in the late 1990's? She said that Terri would respond to visitors and that Michael Schiavo would routinely ask "Is the bitch dead yet?" Where the hell was this woman during the initial litigation process?

http://mediamatters.org/items/200503230001

CNN, Fox featured ex-Schiavo nurse whose affidavit was dismissed as "incredible" by judge

On March 22, both CNN's Live From... and Fox News' Fox and Friends aired interviews with Carla Sauer Iyer -- a former nurse for Terri Schiavo who in 2003 submitted an affidavit with inflammatory accusations against Terri's husband, Michael Schiavo -- but failed to report questions about Iyer's credibility. Judge George W. Greer, the Florida circuit judge who has presided over several aspects of the Schiavo case, dismissed Iyer's allegations as "incredible" and noted in a September 17, 2003, order that not even Terri Schiavo's parents sought her testimony in the case.

In both appearances, Iyer was presented as a former nurse for Terri Schiavo. Fox introduced her as a "registered nurse in Florida" who "cared for Terri for more than a year between '95 and 1996." In addition, on-screen text described Iyer as "Carla Sauer Iyer; Cared for Terri Schiavo." On CNN, Iyer was introduced as a "nurse who says that she cared for Terri Schiavo [for] more than a year in the mid-1990s." As with Fox, CNN's on-screen text described Iyer as "Terri Schiavo's former nurse." Another on-screen text line presented on CNN stated that Iyer "testified about Terri Schiavo's physical state." However, according to Greer's September 2003 order, Schiavo's parents had not subpoenaed Iyer to testify.

In both a 2003 court affidavit (posted on the website operated by Terri's parents, Robert and Mary Schindler) and her March 22 cable appearances, Iyer maintained that Terri Schiavo was constantly "alert and oriented" while under her care, "saying such things as 'mommy,' and 'help me.' " She claimed that "Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused on Terri's death. Michael would say 'When is she going to die?' 'Has she died yet?' and 'When is that bitch gonna die?' " The affidavit also included her claims that Michael Schiavo expressed the desire to "accelerate" Terri's death, that when Terri was sick and looked as if she might die, "He [Michael] would blurt out 'I'm going to be rich,' " and the assertion that "[i]t is my belief that Michael injected Terri with Regular insulin" to intentionally make her sick. She claimed in her affidavit that "I ultimately called the police relative to this situation, and was terminated the next day."

Greer dismissed Iyer's charges, noting that they -- along with a similar affidavit given by Heidi Law, another nurse who formerly took care of Terri Schiavo -- were "incredible to say the least" and that "[n]either in the testimony nor in the medical records is there support for these affidavits as they purport to detail activities and responses of Terri Schiavo." From Greer's decision:

The remaining affidavits deal exclusively with events which allegedly occurred in the 1995-1997 time frame. The court feels constrained to discuss them. They are incredible to say the least. Ms. Iyer details what amounts to a 15-month cover-up which would include the staff of Palm Garden of Lago Convalescent Center, the Guardian of the Person, the Guardian ad Litem, the medical professionals, the police and, believe it or not, Mr. and Mrs. Schindler. Her affidavit clearly states that she would "call them (Mr. and Mrs. Schindler) anyway because I thought they should know about their daughter." The affidavit of Ms. Law speaks of Terri responding on a constant basis. Neither in the testimony nor in the medical records is there support for these affidavits as they purport to detail activities and responses of Terri Schiavo. It is impossible to believe that Mr. and Mrs. Schindler would not have subpoenaed Ms. Iyer for the January 2000 evidentiary hearing had she contacted them as her affidavit alleges.

[gldstwmn]

Judge Greer's order:http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder0903.pdf

Heidi Law's affidavit:http://www.terrisfight.org/documents/hlawaffidavit.htm