Who Has Given Up ??

[elle]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Why did Lindsey saying that in a solo show make you give up? What did you think he meant by that? I don’t think that Lindsey would perpetuate a false, star-crossed Stevie and Lindsey drama at a solo concert.

It sounds like Cast Away Dreams intro. I always understood that as finally giving up on being a commercial solo artist - something he pursued at the OOTC time and why he was sitting on OOTC for so long making it come out at exactly the wrong time to be commercial. If you watch his documentary that comes with Bass Hall it is pretty clear he was stuck on whether or not to still try something commercial solo, or just release stuff without worrying too much.

If you think this was about some kind of shipperdom thing, that’s your own problem.

IMO, although many say that the recent happenings are about Stevie still being stuck on LB romantically while he moved on long time ago and she finally realized that, I always maintain that while those 2 have weird symbiotic relationship it’s not nearly as much about the couple thing as people romanticize and as they’d like you to think, but about competition about their careers. They both know neither one would be as successful as they are without the other and they probably both hate it. Just look at the ridiculous fan discussions of its all one or its all the other ongoing all over social media.

Like I think last night I saw someone posted here “it wouldn’t be FM without Stevie” - well, guess what, I bet that person goes ballistic when someone says “ it’s not FM without Lindsey”.

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by elle

Like I think last night I saw someone posted here “it wouldn’t be FM without Stevie” - well, guess what, I bet that person goes ballistic when someone says “ it’s not FM without Lindsey”.

It was all I could do to not post that response!

A couple of her people just wear me out, where it's not even satisfying to post a smart assed response to their idiocy.

[michelej1]

Things are about Stevie, for instance some of us long said that the UTS intro was about her and it turns out it was. But you have to look for these connections. Sometimes it seems that non-shippers, who say they are disgusted by SNL, go as far out of their way to look for romance that’s not there than shippers do. Hearing that song intro from Lindsey would not have made me think about Stevie, unless I was going to the concert waiting to hear hints of Stevie.

Don’t get me wrong, I remember coming back from concerts and me relaying what the new lyrics were and I would report penny arcade of Edgar Allan Poe and then we would begin to connect that to Stevie lyrics. But I was *looking* for that. If you go and you aren’t looking to hear something then I don’t think a song about a dream that died would make me think, “oh he’s trying to capitalize on the SNL fanaticism.”

[David]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Things are about Stevie, for instance some of us long said that the UTS intro was about her and it turns out it was. But you have to look for these connections. Sometimes it seems that non-shippers, who say they are disgusted by SNL, go as far out of their way to look for romance that’s not there than shippers do.

The thing that always drove me temperamentally away from my friend Nancy's board of relationship-centered interpretations wasn't the fiction of the relationship itself but the insistence on anywhere and everywhere reading autobiography into every lyric. It always made me think back to my college lit courses in authorial intent and Wimsatt and Beardsley's intentional fallacy, and how it's overshooting to continually assume that a songwriter's lyrics are either deeply personal or even autobiographically factual at all. There's no internal (internal to the song) evidence that "Did she make you break down?" is a second-person address to Lindsey Buckingham in the real world. Stevie might have said that it was—I don't know—but it doesn't necessarily follow that, just because we know real-world Stevie sent real-world Lindsey packing and he took it hard, the lyric itself relates that real-world reaction in any way. But the shippers and others project and project. By virtue of sheer amount, some projecting is probably actually factual. But it's the constant projecting that alienates me. Does every little phrase in a Stevie Nicks lyric that touches on passionate emotional ambivalence have to do with Lindsey? Shipper reactions are fictions about fictions. Of course, Stevie's mode of writing lends itself to such responses, and that's also why I don't think Stevie is one of the great writers: she never seems to stand back from her characters and observe them with any detachment or irony. The emotions they are experiencing are always and completely the emotions that we listeners are supposed to be connecting to with total ingenuousness. It's all very unsophisticated.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by David

Of course, Stevie's mode of writing lends itself to such responses, and that's also why I don't think Stevie is one of the great writers: she never seems to stand back from her characters and observe them with any detachment or irony. The emotions they are experiencing are always and completely the emotions that we listeners are supposed to be connecting to with total ingenuousness. It's all very unsophisticated.

What I love about SYLM is that he doesn't love her and Christine manages to convey that on one hand, tucking reality neatly beneath frothy romance. The song conveys two contradictory messages in my mind: what she would like to be the truth and what is the truth. I've always thought that was very clever.

Stevie ... thinking about what you wrote, I've thought that EFO does have a certain detachment. I see the protagonist as fooling herself. She exudes false bravado. She taunts. He adores her. They do it everywhere they can, every time they can get away. Get away! (much like Paul's alleged "get back" to Yoko). But none of it's true and she's really dying inside. The lyrics always gave me the impression of an outside narrator looking in, detached, shrewd, sad, witnessing someone else's delusion. But we listeners, what are we supposed to feel? Are we cheering the affair? I think yes, in a way. The pounding disco music says triumph. We dance as "the other woman" chortles. We support her. I don't know if we are necessarily supposed to be connecting to the despair.

Anne Lindbergh once described Charles feeding their daughter. He would dangle a cherry in her face and when she would look up at it, mouth ajar, he'd stick a vegetable in her mouth. I think that's what EFO does.

I mean, I don't think it's the sophisticated song you requested, but I think it conveys more than what's on the shallow surface, because it strikes me as both celebration and doom.

[bombaysaffires]

Originally Posted by michelej1

What I love about SYLM is that he doesn't love her and Christine manages to convey that on one hand, tucking reality neatly beneath frothy romance. The song conveys two contradictory messages in my mind: what she would like to be the truth and what is the truth. I've always thought that was very clever.

Stevie ... thinking about what you wrote, I've thought that EFO does have a certain detachment. I see the protagonist as fooling herself. She exudes false bravado. She taunts. He adores her. They do it everywhere they can, every time they can get away. Get away!(much like Paul's alleged "get back" to Yoko). But none of it's true and she's really dying inside. The lyrics always gave me the impression of an outside narrator looking in, detached, shrewd, sad, witnessing someone else's delusion. But we listeners, what are we supposed to feel? Are we cheering the affair? I think yes, in a way. The pounding disco music says triumph. We dance as "the other woman" chortles. We support her. I don't know if we are necessarily supposed to be connecting to the despair.

Anne Lindbergh once described Charles feeding their daughter. He would dangle a cherry in her face and when she would look up at it, mouth ajar, he'd stick a vegetable in her mouth. I think that's what EFO does.

I mean, I don't think it's the sophisticated song you requested, but I think it conveys more than what's on the shallow surface, because it strikes me as both celebration and doom.

I honestly think the second "get away" is just an aural flourish, i.e. there needs to be an additional couple of syllables at the end of the line which isn't enough to express a new thought so she repeats the "get away", like an echo. I think reading it as otherwise is over thinking it.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by bombaysaffires

I honestly think the second "get away" is just an aural flourish, i.e. there needs to be an additional couple of syllables at the end of the line which isn't enough to express a new thought so she repeats the "get away", like an echo. I think reading it as otherwise is over thinking it.

I take it as meaning both things. Every time we can get away and telling the wife to step off. I don't mind overthinking.

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by David

The thing that always drove me temperamentally away from my friend Nancy's board of relationship-centered interpretations wasn't the fiction of the relationship itself but the insistence on anywhere and everywhere reading autobiography into every lyric. It always made me think back to my college lit courses in authorial intent and Wimsatt and Beardsley's intentional fallacy, and how it's overshooting to continually assume that a songwriter's lyrics are either deeply personal or even autobiographically factual at all. There's no internal (internal to the song) evidence that "Did she make you break down?" is a second-person address to Lindsey Buckingham in the real world. Stevie might have said that it was—I don't know—but it doesn't necessarily follow that, just because we know real-world Stevie sent real-world Lindsey packing and he took it hard, the lyric itself relates that real-world reaction in any way. But the shippers and others project and project. By virtue of sheer amount, some projecting is probably actually factual. But it's the constant projecting that alienates me. Does every little phrase in a Stevie Nicks lyric that touches on passionate emotional ambivalence have to do with Lindsey? Shipper reactions are fictions about fictions. Of course, Stevie's mode of writing lends itself to such responses, and that's also why I don't think Stevie is one of the great writers: she never seems to stand back from her characters and observe them with any detachment or irony. The emotions they are experiencing are always and completely the emotions that we listeners are supposed to be connecting to with total ingenuousness. It's all very unsophisticated.

Honestly, this is how I felt as well. It became such a turn-off to me. Further, shippers would block out any talk of Christine and even began to hate her. Later on came the nasty things that they would say about her.

When she re-joined: The "Christine destroyed the band by returning!" surfaced.

[elle]

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

Honestly, this is how I felt as well. It became such a turn-off to me. Further, shippers would block out any talk of Christine and even began to hate her. Later on came the nasty things that they would say about her.

When she re-joined: The "Christine destroyed the band by returning!" surfaced.

it's really the weirdest reasoning.

if they were so fragile that having all 5 together will "destroy" them, then something was very wrong in the first place.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by elle

it's really the weirdest reasoning.

if they were so fragile that having all 5 together will "destroy" them, then something was very wrong in the first place.

Well, the relationship was always wrong. But the reason that having Christine back could interfere with it is that you always have a third person to turn to. Lindsay has said that Christine contributed to his break up with Stevie in the seventies. He said that they were shaky to begin with and maybe they would’ve made it, maybe they would not have, but having Christine, who was also divorcing, talking to Stevie sealed the break up.

This time, just having Christine back allowed both Lindsey and Stevie to turn away from each other. In the past, since SYW, they were stuck, forced to fight and compromise. Christine removed the forced compromise factor. I realized that she would from the beginning, but I thought that it would work in my favor, not against me. I thought that with Christine back we would get a new FM album, for example, because I thought it would make it 2 against 1. Michele

[MissJanet]

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

Honestly, this is how I felt as well. It became such a turn-off to me. Further, shippers would block out any talk of Christine and even began to hate her. Later on came the nasty things that they would say about her.

When she re-joined: The "Christine destroyed the band by returning!" surfaced.

That was the last straw for me, too. I cannot see why some female fans feel the need to put Christine down to make their devotion to Stevie clear. And I have no doubt that Stevie would not appreciate that kind of behaviour.
The worst for me? Fanfiction writers writing NC17 fanfiction of Lindsey/Stevie - there is a line and they crossed it. I understand fandom, but that is just plain respectless and super creepy imho.

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by MissJanet

That was the last straw for me, too. I cannot see why some female fans feel the need to put Christine down to make their devotion to Stevie clear. And I have no doubt that Stevie would not appreciate that kind of behaviour.
The worst for me? Fanfiction writers writing NC17 fanfiction of Lindsey/Stevie - there is a line and they crossed it. I understand fandom, but that is just plain respectless and super creepy imho.

Creepy was the word that used to pop into my head when reading their theories and stories.

[Nicks Fan]

Originally Posted by MissJanet

That was the last straw for me, too. I cannot see why some female fans feel the need to put Christine down to make their devotion to Stevie clear. And I have no doubt that Stevie would not appreciate that kind of behaviour.
The worst for me? Fanfiction writers writing NC17 fanfiction of Lindsey/Stevie - there is a line and they crossed it. I understand fandom, but that is just plain respectless and super creepy imho.

Some of the revisionist stories going around now or that have gone around in the past are quite something. The way they make SN out to be some battered woman who was terrorized for years by big bad Lindsey is laughable. A handful of incidents in 40 plus years is not worth going on about considering all the crap they all did to one another over the years.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by jbrownsjr

Honestly, this is how I felt as well. It became such a turn-off to me. Further, shippers would block out any talk of Christine and even began to hate her. Later on came the nasty things that they would say about her.

When she re-joined: The "Christine destroyed the band by returning!" surfaced.

Please...

How could you possibly not see the chemistry between them???

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

Please...

How could you possibly not see the chemistry between them???

You're trying to prove a point with that photo, but I don't get it. They are not looking at each other in the particular moment that photo was snapped, but the band broke up after a horrendous fight a year before and there they are at a wedding with their arms around each other. That doesn't exactly say no chemistry to me. Instead it says, "I wish I knew how to quit you."

I wish the band would be 1% as loving towards Lindsey now as they were after the Tango split.