Dont Stop at DNC

[strandinthewind]

I am not saying and have not said Carter did not do those things. What I said was all politicians have to do bad things when they reach a certain level. If those are bad things (I do not have the time to research it from all sides) - then so be it. I think they pale in comparison to the good Carter has done both locally here in Ga and in the world in general. That is what I said. That is how I addressed your point. Clear now

[strandinthewind]

Also, the "sticking our noses in" argument is a little disingenuous. Do you really think if the US pulled every single interest out of the Middle East (Isreal included) that would stop the violence. The extremists would see that only as an advantage to attack us more. These people are sick and irrationale. Moreover, the minute the US does not help someone, those people hate us for that. We are damned if we do and damned if we do not. But, I do agree with you that our policies need to be changed. It is how they need to be changed I am unsure.

[dontlookdown]

ah.......

How nice it was to hear a voice of reason - in both Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton.

It's easy to forget what thoughtful intelligent speakers can be like after four years of wincing everytime Shrub opens his mouth.

Although I have to admit, I winced when I heard the opening chords of Don't Stop - it's the only Fleetwood Mac song I've never liked - since the day I first heard it in 1976.


Godspeed John Kerry to the White House. We can't wait any longer.......

[dontlookdown]

Looking forward to Ron Reagan Jr's speech tonight - I'm sure the Repubs will be tuning in

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I am not saying and have not said Carter did not do those things. What I said was all politicians have to do bad things when they reach a certain level. If those are bad things (I do not have the time to research it from all sides) - then so be it. I think they pale in comparison to the good Carter has done both locally here in Ga and in the world in general. That is what I said. That is how I addressed your point. Clear now

Why does Carter have to mess with Venezuelan politics right now, Jason?

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

You must stop at some point and ask yourself why half the electorate doesn't bother to vote. This is one of the reasons. Too much show; not enough substance. Believe it.

Working in a public library, I have an opportunity to discuss many topics with many people (you'd be amazed at the dialogues you can have just by asking someone, "What did you think of that book?"), and from my conversations and observations, the number one reason people don't vote is that they feel "one vote doesn't make a difference."
I hear this time and time again. If they feel that a candidate is a sure-thing to win (whether they're happy about that or unhappy about that), they feel it doesn't matter whether or not they vote.

Another thing I observe, is cynicism... "all politicians are crooks, who are out to screw the little guy."
So they just don't care to waste their time following the election process or learning about the various candidates.

So I think if more people could be given a sense of hope, and if their interest could be sparked, then we'd have a higher voter turn out.
And I totally believe that this is why Clinton was so highly regarded, and is STILL so highly regarded... he very charismatically gave people something to be optimistic about.
"Don't Stop" was the PERFECT song for Clinton, because it summed up his message in the catchiest way possible: Times have been rough, and many of us have had it tough, but don't stop thinking about the promise of a better tomorrow... and with me by your side, we're going to bring about that "better tomorrow." (Like how I came back around to the topic of this thread? *hehehe*)

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

I know a few. But I'll say it again, Paul Wellstone. If you know of any skeletons in his closet, please share. Otherwise, I would hope you would take that back.

I don't know too terribly much about Wellstone, beyond the fact that his untimely death was much lamented as a great loss, so I'm unable to point to any skeletons in his closet.
But I did find this article, which falls under the "no one is perfect in everyone's eyes" category.... The Seduction of Paul Wellstone... and discusses the view that he had backed down from a lot of his earliest campaign promises, and had become "just another career politician."

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

It offends my sense of fairness that Jimmy Carter gets hailed as some kind of human-rights hero when he is anything but. He started a lot of crap that we're still paying for, and will be paying for in years to come. And as we speak, he is pressuring the duly elected government of Venezuela so that the Bush-backed puppets take over the government and hand over the oil to the megacorporations. I'm not making this up, folks.

Name me a president in the last 30-40 years who hasn't done something that we're still paying for today.
Even the "good guys" aren't perfect and make less-than-noble decisions sometimes. But out of the past half-dozen or so Presidents, Carter still stands out as a good man.

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

I'm sure you were being funny, but Lindsey Buckingham is not even close to being my hero.

I'm sorry... calling Lindsey your hero was based on interpretive license gathered from reading your various compliments and defenses of him over the past few years. (See, I told you that would come back to haunt you!)

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Also, the "sticking our noses in" argument is a little disingenuous.

Disingenous? Please enlighten me on how that is disingenuous.

Do you really think if the US pulled every single interest out of the Middle East (Isreal included) that would stop the violence.

Stop trafficking weapons. Start trafficking food, Jason. Stop exploiting, start helping to educate. Stop backing repressive dictators, start backing democratic political processes. Yes, after some years of doing this, the violence would stop.

The extremists would see that only as an advantage to attack us more. These people are sick and irrationale.

What's so irrational about perceiving that you've been aggrieved by a superpower and striking back? That may be sick, especially considering how you strike back, but irrational? Sorry. Irrational is attacking Iraq after Saudi Arabia attacks, no?

But, I do agree with you that our policies need to be changed. It is how they need to be changed I am unsure.

Start by not giving your vote to warmongers. That's a first step.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Why does Carter have to mess with Venezuelan politics right now, Jason?

I do not know. I am sure you are right - I do not have time to research it. My point is on the whole Carter is a good man.

[Vianna]

I watched last nigfht too-saw Hillary and Bill. Loved the Don't Stop intro.

I know it's a pep rally and I know also that the primary job the delegates have there is to get a party platform written that the majority of the Dems can support. I don't expect much of it, it's interesting to watch however.

Clinton was good last night. He was more than good. His speech was organized and to the point, unlike our friend in the White House. I don't care much for the man personally but I have to give credit where credit is due.

The main point to me is to get Bush out of the White House and his Republicans with him. It's top priority to me. Let's just hope and pray we can do that. I'm not sure Kerry can beat Bush. I'd rather they'd have waited to see if somebody better didn't emerge. Oh, well.

As to why we haven't more candidates of upstanding moral integrity I believe that a lot of those kinds of people don't want to run given the situation here in America where your private life and your family's private life is going to be taken apart by the media. Some people think that their family is more important than running for office if that is what it is going to mean. I am sorry because I agree we need somebody we can look up to and say this is a good man. I used to hear my parents talk about Roosevelt and Churchill and you could tell they thought those men were true leaders. I wish I could have felt that way about somebody who has been in office during my voting years. Kennedy comes closest but even he was not that great of a leader. People can accomplish extraordinary things when led by a leader who has some sort of vision to make the world better. I just wish we could have someone like that for President.

By the way, who is Paul Wellstone?

[strandinthewind]

Again, if we left the Middle East altogether. Just packed up and came home. Gave them back the freedom and autonomy they allege we stole. If we stopped polluting their lands with our presence (their words not mine). Do you really think that act would have the effect of making everything fine there. I think it would not. Moreover, if we somehow started giving them food and clothing and educated them when their govt.'s did not, do you really think we would be seen in any other light than infidels polluting their soil. I think not. But, if you do, great. I never will. So, the question for me is how can we be there and not be considered as such. I submit as long as the irrationale and monsterous religious zealots exist, we cannot. So, we have to do the best we can, which will never be enough, etc. It is an unsolveable problem.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by Johnny Stew

. If they feel that a candidate is a sure-thing to win (whether they're happy about that or unhappy about that), they feel it doesn't matter whether or not they vote.

Another thing I observe, is cynicism... "all politicians are crooks, who are out to screw the little guy."
So they just don't care to waste their time following the election process or learning about the various candidates.

Could the cynicism have something to do with the fact that all people get is pretty speeches every four years followed by total disregard for their needs? I don't see how what you've said above counters, or negates, what I said.

So I think if more people could be given a sense of hope, and if their interest could be sparked, then we'd have a higher voter turn out.
And I totally believe that this is why Clinton was so highly regarded, and is STILL so highly regarded... he very charismatically gave people something to be optimistic about.

I won't even take the gratuitous shot at Clinton this time. But, really, if this were true, shouldn't we see a 90 percent turnout in November? You're saying these speeches give people hope, but they're still not voting. Because it's all vapid nonsense, right?

I don't know too terribly much about Wellstone, beyond the fact that his untimely death was much lamented as a great loss, so I'm unable to point to any skeletons in his closet.

Mother Jones is a commie rag. I'll have to read that, Johnny.

Name me a president in the last 30-40 years who hasn't done something that we're still paying for today.
Even the "good guys" aren't perfect and make less-than-noble decisions sometimes. But out of the past half-dozen or so Presidents, Carter still stands out as a good man.

But that's just it, Johnny, a good man would not be meddling in other countries' elections under the guise of unbiased monitor. A good man would not be collaborating with the Bush spooks to get rid of the democratically elected president of a country. Do you think I'm making this up?

The point: Jimmy Carter could just retire and be done with it. But, no, he's out there pushing the imperialist agenda, working with the very people he was lambasting last night from the podium. YOU'VE BEEN DUPED!

I'm sorry... calling Lindsey your hero was based on interpretive license gathered from reading your various compliments and defenses of him over the past few years. (See, I told you that would come back to haunt you!)

Aaarrgh... Well, it could be worse. You might have interpreted that Stevie is my hero.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I do not know. I am sure you are right - I do not have time to research it. My point is on the whole Carter is a good man.

No, he's not!! That's my point. The man could just retire, attone for his sins and do nothing but good deeds.

He has chosen not to do that. He's messed with Haiti, the Dominican Republic, Venezuela and countless other nations. WHY?

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Moreover, if we somehow started giving them food and clothing and educated them when their govt.'s did not

Never said that, Jason. You didn't read carefully enough.

It is an unsolveable problem.

No such thing. A problem is only unsolveable when the solution takes too much work.

We are headed for an all-out religious war with Islam. Make no mistake.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by Vianna

I used to hear my parents talk about Roosevelt and Churchill and you could tell they thought those men were true leaders.

Eh, Churchill was bipolar boozer and Roosevelt was indicisive and petty, not to mention a womanizer.

Sorry, couldn't resist. Roosevelt is one of my favorite historical people. Of course he had flaws. We all do. But he didn't let his flaws be his downfall, as Clinton and Nixon did.

People can accomplish extraordinary things when led by a leader who has some sort of vision to make the world better. I just wish we could have someone like that for President.

I would gladly volunteer, but I am not eligible. About the only positive outcome of Ahnold's election in California might be a change to that eligibility issue.

By the way, who is Paul Wellstone?

Senator from Minnesota, the greatest public servant in a long time. Died in a plane crash.

[Patti]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

I dunno. But if you need any help, let me know.

Ok that made me laugh--have a great day!