Break Down of Kiln House

[snoot]

PS. The Bob Welch led Heroes Are Hard To Find album did reach the Top 40 charts by the way, climbing to #34 in 1974 to be precise. That beat anything the PG Mac did stateside on the charts, and by a wide margin. To my knowledge the best the Velvet Underground ever saw was #171 on Billboard, not even a Top 100 entry. That equates to relatively poor sales, much less hit albums. But they're deemed worthy of the alter, no doubt based on "name power" or "hipness" or some other enlightened qualifier.

Proving some get the love, and some don't.

[Street_Dreamer]

Blood On The Floor is one of my all-time favorite Fleetwood Mac songs, and without question my favorite contribution from Jeremy to the band.

Matt

[SteveMacD]

There's no formula as to who is inducted. Bands don't always have a say as to who is included. The Grateful Dead were obviously going to be inducted, and the Hall met Jerry Gracia's demands that everybody be included. With Traffic, Steve Winwood and Jim Capaldi have said that they didn't consider Dave Mason to be a full member of the band, yet he was inducted, whereas none of the others who joined later were inducted. With the Byrds, the only ones inducted were the original members, which had the hits, whereas HIGLY influential latter-day members like Gram Parsons and Clarence White were omitted.

With Fleetwood Mac, it's a bit odd, but I see how they came to that decision. Peter Green wrote a bunch of hits, Christine McVie wrote a bunch of hits, Stevie Nicks wrote a bunch of hits, Lindsey Buckingham wrote a bunch of hits, and Mick and John played on everything, and that Danny and Jeremy played on Peter's stuff means they get included, too. But, I was pissed that a guy who was on five albums and another guy who was in the band for eight years got passed over. What I find especially odd is that the Hall lists Sentimental Lady as an essential song on their Fleetwood Mac page.

Essential Songs

Don’t Stop
Rhiannon
The Chain
Dreams
Oh Well
Landslide
Go Your Own Way
Tusk
Black Magic Woman
Sentimental Lady

[snoot]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

There's no formula as to who is inducted. Bands don't always have a say as to who is included. The Grateful Dead were obviously going to be inducted, and the Hall met Jerry Gracia's demands that everybody be included. With Traffic, Steve Winwood and Jim Capaldi have said that they didn't consider Dave Mason to be a full member of the band, yet he was inducted, whereas none of the others who joined later were inducted. With the Byrds, the only ones inducted were the original members, which had the hits, whereas HIGLY influential latter-day members like Gram Parsons and Clarence White were omitted.

Right, but now you're proving me right. Induction doesn't stem around making hits alone, and Garcia (as loyal a cat as there is in the biz) proves the hall directors will acquiesce to group demands. So why didn't the Big 5 take the high road on the issue? Could it be they didn't care? You tell me.

With Fleetwood Mac, it's a bit odd, but I see how they came to that decision. Peter Green wrote a bunch of hits, Christine McVie wrote a bunch of hits, Stevie Nicks wrote a bunch of hits, Lindsey Buckingham wrote a bunch of hits, and Mick and John played on everything, and that Danny and Jeremy played on Peter's stuff means they get included, too.

"Odd" is an understatement. That's also a rather selective and rose rimmed view on your part, as the Mac were much more than just that. I have my doubts that some of those Green hits would have gone "over the top" without Danny's key contributions to them (just my opinion). But any way you look at it, Peter really got in the groove once Kirwan appeared.

But, I was pissed that a guy who was on five albums and another guy who was in the band for eight years got passed over. What I find especially odd, in light of Bob not being inducted, is that on their page on the Hall's website, it lists Sentimental Lady as an essential song.

And that's the crime. It isn't "odd", his exclusion was premeditated - and petty to the max. That makes it worse.

To think, TWO Fleetwood Mac album titles directly reference his compositions! What a hoot.

Essential Welch Songs

Sentimental Lady
Hypnotized
Miles Away
Keep On Going
Future Games
Bermuda Triangle

Those alone should put anyone in that silly shrine.

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by snoot

"Odd" is an understatement. That's also a rather selective and rose rimmed view on your part, as the Mac were much more than just that. I have my doubts that some of those Green hits would have gone "over the top" without Danny's key contributions to them (just my opinion). But any way you look at it, Peter really got in the groove once Kirwan appeared.

It's true that Peter's playing took another leap when Danny joined the band, but I serioiusly don't think it was DIRECTLY due to Danny himself. It could've been any decent guitarist joining the band that would've inspired Peter. Jeremy either wasn't able or just downright didn't want to take on what Peter needed...a guitar foill; somebody to push him to play better...Danny just happened along. You're making it seem as if Danny was to Peter as Duane Allman was to Eric Clapton during the making of Layla and I don't see that at all.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by snoot

Right, but now you're proving me right. Induction doesn't stem around making hits alone, and Garcia (as loyal a cat as there is in the biz) proves the hall directors will acquiesce to group demands. So why didn't the Big 5 take the high road on the issue? Could it be they didn't care? You tell me.

Hmmm...You seem to know how to cherry pick, too. My two opening sentences said it all: There's no formula as to who is inducted. Bands don't always have a say as to who is included. I don't know that Fleetwood Mac had as much say as you think they had.

"Odd" is an understatement. That's also a rather selective and rose rimmed view on your part, as the Mac were much more than just that.

But, that's their legacy on popular culture. While FG and MTM had an amazing impact on me personally, I can't say that it had a major impact on popular culture. That's reality.

I have my doubts that some of those Green hits would have gone "over the top" without Danny's key contributions to them (just my opinion). But any way you look at it, Peter really got in the groove once Kirwan appeared.

Peter was ready to move away from the blues and on to bigger things. Jeremy was happy being the mimick, so they needed a foil. That's where Danny came in. That it was Danny is honestly inconsequential. Yes, he was brilliant and became one of the most important members in the history of the band, the vision was still Peter's on those songs.

And that's the crime. It isn't "odd", his exclusion was premeditated - and petty to the max. That makes it worse.

See, I don't know how much of that list was the band's decision and how much is the Hall's decision. I could just as easily see two or three higher-ups coming up with that list as I could the band. However, I don't know. The Hall has bent over backwards for some bands, but not others. (EDIT: i.e. was it a couple of suits that said "well, this is who we're going to induct from Fleetwood Mac, and if they don't like it, they're out" OR was it the band say "eh, f*ck those guys?" That Mick has maintained relationships with Bob Welch, Billy, and Rick, it looks to me like it was more the Hall's decision than the band's.)

In any event, I wouldn't be upset about it. The fact Madonna is in and Gram Parsons, Clarence White, Randy Bachman, Rush, Kiss, Yes, and Genesis to name but a few are not tells me all I need to know about that "institution."

[snoot]

Originally Posted by chiliD

It's true that Peter's playing took another leap when Danny joined the band, but I serioiusly don't think it was DIRECTLY due to Danny himself. It could've been any decent guitarist joining the band that would've inspired Peter. Jeremy either wasn't able or just downright didn't want to take on what Peter needed...a guitar foill; somebody to push him to play better...Danny just happened along. You're making it seem as if Danny was to Peter as Duane Allman was to Eric Clapton during the making of Layla and I don't see that at all.

Can't agree with your assessment. Sorry if you see Danny as just another "decent guitarist" (that's the understatement of the year btw lol). It wasn't a foil Green needed, it was a partner in crime. Danny provided that like few others could (Jeremy couldn't have even if he wanted to; he wasn't as gifted on the instrument, or as a songsmith). Danny didn't "just happened along" either, he was actively recruited. Pete and producer Mike Vernon were first gunning for Danny to be his own frontman with his own act, but they couldn't find musicians worthy of the 18 year old lad (to include his Boilerhouse cohorts). The more Pete saw Danny and his guitar prowess in action, the more he realized he was the missing piece in the Mac puzzle (and as history has shown, he was).

PG had his eyes wide open at the time, and took DK under his wing like no other. By the TPO sessions they resembled full fledged partners more than anything else, equals on every level. Mike Vernon has stated that in those early days, Kirwan was so into the guitar that he cried as he played. Bob Welch has stated that Green was pretty much equally matched by Kirwan on the instrument. Those insider assessments don't point to another "decent guitarist" my friend. But hell, just put your ear to it. There's more of Kirwan's guitar on Then Play On, Peter's crowning achievement, than Green's! "Ragtime Cowboy Joe" and "Young Eyes" were always complimentary pet names given to Danny by Green, and nothing else.

BTW your analogy of Allman/Clapton is apropos, but so would be Allman/Betts as we went over before. Call it the mssing element.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words. These three say a lot, the first and last in particular.

[snoot]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

Hmmm...You seem to know how to cherry pick, too. My two opening sentences said it all: There's no formula as to who is inducted. Bands don't always have a say as to who is included. I don't know that Fleetwood Mac had as much say as you think they had.

Geez Steve, we're starting to going round in circles now. I figured you were better than that. You just provided a perfect reference to contradict your latest statement here. If Garcia could do it, so could anyone else! Especially an act as big as Fleetwood Mac. How did Jerry come to carry such a big stick? Get real.

But, that's their legacy on popular culture. While FG and MTM had an amazing impact on me personally, I can't say that it had a major impact on popular culture. That's reality.

Popular culture! That's beside the point! They were inducting FLEETWOOD MAC, the band, not individual, cherry picked members of it. Or at least, THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN. Sorry you think it all boils down to how that bloody board sees things. How friggen lame.

If it was all about "popular culture," how did half the acts that grace that Hall get it there? Starting with the Velvet Underground and Sex Pistols!

Peter was ready to move away from the blues and on to bigger things. Jeremy was happy being the mimick, so they needed a foil. That's where Danny came in. That it was Danny is honestly inconsequential. Yes, he was brilliant and became one of the most important members in the history of the band, the vision was still Peter's on those songs.

Ha! Now you're rewriting history according to how the uninformed see it. I cannot correlate these two adjoining phrases of yours: "Danny is honestly inconsequential" with "Yes, he was brilliant and became one of the most important members in the history of the band"! You're losing me in the contradiction. Go read what I wrote above. Fleetwood Mac did rise above the blues, only you never get the memo on Kirwan's influence making that happen. He also accents and harmonizes Green's tunes like no other.

See, I don't know how much of that list was the band's decision and how much is the Hall's decision. I could just as easily see two or three higher-ups coming up with that list as I could the band. However, I don't know. The Hall has bent over backwards for some bands, but not others. (EDIT: i.e. was it a couple of suits that said "well, this is who we're going to induct from Fleetwood Mac, and if they don't like it, they're out" OR was it the band say "eh, f*ck those guys?"

To cut to the chase, go read what is written above >> again. Look for the => Garcia reference. I could add others to boot, but that one will suffice nicely. HINT: It WAS the band's decision! Put 1 + 1 together man, again just use the Garcia pointer.

That Mick has maintained relationships with Bob Welch, Billy, and Rick, it looks to me like it was more the Hall's decision than the band's.

Uh, really? Mick hasn't talked to Bob Welch in years, almost two decades now I if I'm correct! Where were you when the sour grapes went down? Go look up a certain lawsuit circa 1990 or so involving Welch and The Mac. There's your answer.

In any event, I wouldn't be upset about it. The fact Madonna is in and Gram Parsons, Clarence White, Randy Bachman, Rush, Kiss, Yes, and Genesis to name but a few are not tells me all I need to know about that "institution."

I don't have to be upset about it, it isn't worth the angst. I'm only pointing out a serious black spot on the band's legacy that HOF helped create. That Welch was stiffed by his former bandmates in that way, after all he contributed to FM, should not be dismissed with the wave of a hand. Christ, they would never have found SoCal - and therefore Buckingham & Nicks - if it weren't for Bob taking them there, and then resigning after he was spent. DAYUM

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by snoot

Geez Steve, we're starting to going round in circles now. I figured you were better than that. You just provided a perfect reference to contradict your latest statement here. If Garcia could do it, so could anyone else!

For the third time: There's no formula as to who is inducted. Bands don't always have a say as to who is included. Now, to make it simpler, some bands have more power than other bands because they're considered more important than other bands.

Especially an act as big as Fleetwood Mac. How did Jerry come to carry such a big stick? Get real.

Prior to 1997, Fleetwood Mac had fallen out of the public eye. They had the reunion, and I think the timing for them was right. They could have argued a little harder, but would rather have had that moment. In other words, it wasn't perfect, but it was good enough.

The Grateful Dead, by contrast, had been a pretty consistent draw for nearly 30 years by the time they were inducted. Not only were they one of the biggest bands ever, they were their own counter-culture in a way Fleetwood Mac could never have dreamed of. Jerry Garcia and Bob Weir are the two most recorded guitarists ever.

Popular culture! That's beside the point! They were inducting FLEETWOOD MAC, the band, not individual, cherry picked members of it. Or at least, THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN. Sorry you think it all boils down to how that bloody board sees things. How friggen lame.

I agree it's lame, but it's the Hall of Fame. Any body that would put Madonna in before Yes, Rush, or Genesis is, by definition, lame.

If it was all about "popular culture," how did half the acts that grace that Hall get it there? Starting with the Velvet Underground and Sex Pistols!

Because, those bands have had a lasting impact on popular culture. Punk rock and art rock are as alive today as ever, and most of those bands cite VU or the Pistols as influences. Hell, I was listening to both bands earlier today.

Ha! Now you're rewriting history according to how the uninformed see it. I cannot correlate these two adjoining phrases of yours: "Danny is honestly inconsequential" with "Yes, he was brilliant and became one of the most important members in the history of the band"! You're losing me in the contradiction.

No. I'm actually rock solid, here. One is Danny's impact on Peter Green, the other is more a reference to what he did for the band in the wake of Peter's departure. I agree with ChiliD. Peter needed a foil, and Danny happened to fit that bill. Be sure, Danny's inclusion had more to do with the fact he played in Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac than it did for Kiln House. Otherwise, Welch would have been included, too.

Go read what I wrote above. Fleetwood Mac did rise above the blues, only you never get the memo on Kirwan's influence making that happen. He also accents and harmonizes Green's tunes like no other.

I know too well his importance to the band. But, it's not the Important to the History of Fleetwood Mac Hall of Fame, it's the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. They don't care about the history of Fleetwood Mac, they care about Fleetwood Mac's impact on rock music/popular culture. The two variants of Fleetwood Mac that had that impact were Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac, of which Danny was a part, and the Rumours band.

To cut to the chase, go read what is written above >> again. Look for the => Garcia reference. I could add others to boot, but that one will suffice nicely. HINT: It WAS the band's decision! Put 1 + 1 together man, again just use the Garcia pointer.

I'm still not conviced.

Uh, really? Mick hasn't talked to Bob Welch in years, almost two decades now I if I'm correct! Where were you when the sour grapes went down? Go look up a certain lawsuit circa 1990 or so involving Welch and The Mac. There's your answer.

Ummm, you're totally wrong. The lawsuit was settled, Bob and Mick are talking, Bob was at the band's 2003 Nashville show, and Mick recently played or agreed to play a benefit for Bob's wife. Also, Billy was involved in the Mick Fleetwood Band about two years ago, and that morphed into the Mick Fleetwood Blues Band, which is basically lead by Rick Vito. Yeah, them grapes are still sour.


Read Bob's Second Q&A session

Hello Bob and welcome back. Thanks for coming in for more punishment! First of all a belated happy birthday to you. Secondly I hope this time you have come prepared with a secretary and some muscle relaxant gel, my friend and your alphanumeric nemesis, Mr Steve Denison is still here and ready to bombard you again! Good luck! haha.

I must start off by saying your first Q&A was by far the most entertaining I have seen here and thanks for such in depth answers. I'll start my stint with a three parter..

I guess this question has already been put to you but I understand (from what I hear) you met up with the band on the current Say You Will tour and put to bed some differences with Mick. Are you both in a better place with each other now, so to speak?

Secondly I love your new album and "Like Rain" is never off my Walkman at the moment. It seems to me that both yourself and also, Lindsey respectively, are playing and crafting your material better than ever. Your vocal performances are very good indeed on this album and I was wondering If you feel as Lindsey does, that you are getting more and more creative later in your career? It certainly seems so with another singer/guitarist that spends a lot of time in Nashville these days, Mr Mark Knopfler.

Thirdly, I recall you saying you would love to play with Peter Green if at all possible, is this still something you would love to do? (hey, next time I meet him, I'll put your reply to him, if it's yes!)

Thanks Bob, More Later. (Justin Bailey, Manchester, UK)

Thanks for the birthday wishes etc... Yes, Mick's wife called and invited us to FM's Nashville show..a very nice gesture. I've actually had a couple of conversations w/Mick since 2000, but the N'Ville show is the 1st time I've seen him in the flesh. He was very warm...we don't talk about the lawsuit at all. For one thing I can't, really, ...and he can't as per our settlement. But even if I could, I wouldn't want to....It was sort of like , "we're all getting older....let's move on"

Yes I do feel I'm playing /singing better now than 20 or 30 years ago....Too little too late I guess ;-) I'm just 100% confident of what I can....and can't do now, in my "maturity" ..(ugh!) I feel I have complete control of my craft, and after all these years, I finally know how to get any desired musical result. I'm sure Lindsey feels the same way...It's not that I'm more creative...it's that I waste less time on useless b----hit than I used to. But there's a famous cliche ; if youth only knew....if age only could !

Thanks for the kind words about "Like Rain" !

I'd absolutely love to play with Pete Green....or Lindsey for that matter....The time horizon ain't what it used to be, and we have to make hay while the sun still shines..

This was posted on the Sheryl Crow is joining Fleetwood Mac!!! thread over on the Rumours forum on 04-23-2008 at 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by missus

I think exactly that...I don't like the idea...I hate to say unpleasant things about a fellow artist.....but IMO Sheryl Crow will do ANYTHING to get her face out there....a commercial, a charity, a "guest shot"....she's right up there with Brett Michaels....ANYTHING for publicity....embarassing...nothing to do with music....everything to do with self-promotion of the worst kind.This next is a truly , truly horrible thing to say....but, IMO, and forgive me if I'm wrong.....even the marriage to Lance Armstrong smacks of a publicity stunt to me....There is an old one-liner in showbiz that" dying is a great career move". I ( and I know this sounds terribly mean spirited), I think that if Crow could manage to "die" somehow, for awhile...and then magically reappear...she'd do it. And BTW; recently my wife was (THANK GOD) MIS-diagnosed with a fast moving form of liver cancer...We were told, erroneously thank GOD, that the chemo and other treatment could completely bust our lifetime insurance cap....and that we better start thinking about maybe doing some fundraisers...we were panicked..I immediately got on the phone and started calling;....1st Mick Fleetwood...Mick said he would play(we weren't asking for money, just "time and talent)anytime, anywhere...so did Rick Vito...so did Billy Burnette...so did Walter Eagan....so did Jeff Baxter. Stevie Nicks and Lindsey didn't bother to even return my calls. The die is cast...I now know who's got a heart and who doesn't....REALLY got a heart, not the phony heart on sleeve BS that often passes for "empathy" in Hollywood. Sorry to have to say this...Stevie stiffed me and my wife....so did Lindsey....Mick and everybody else came through when we really thought Wendy was at death's door...A misdiagnosis, again, thank God. I will never forget who was a friend....and who wasn't.

Bob Welch
wx-Fleetwood Mac,Capitol Records artist etc. etc.

[snoot]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

For the third time: There's no formula as to who is inducted. Bands don't always have a say as to who is included. Now, to make it simpler, some bands have more power than other bands because they're considered more important than other bands.

Yeah it's all hocus pocus, a real rabbit-out-of-the-hat trick. Gotchya.

And of course, Grateful Dead dwarf Fleetwood Mac in raw "power," ROTFL! Have you ever compared their record sales, let alone impact on "pop culture"? Give me a break.

Prior to 1997, Fleetwood Mac had fallen out of the public eye. They had the reunion, and I think the timing for them was right. They could have argued a little harder, but would rather have had that moment. In other words, it wasn't perfect, but it was good enough.

That's bull. They didn't "argue" or push at all. They kept the limelight all for themselves. But keep dreaming if that's your preference.

The Grateful Dead, by contrast, had been a pretty consistent draw for nearly 30 years by the time they were inducted. Not only were they one of the biggest bands ever, they were their own counter-culture in a way Fleetwood Mac could never have dreamed of. Jerry Garcia and Bob Weir are the two most recorded guitarists ever.

More exaggerations. The Dead have not outdrawn FM since the Buckingham-Nicks era. There have been attendance lulls for both bands over the years, often due to changing or MIA personnel. Counter-culture doesn't equate to "popular culture", nor record sales. The Dead are a big act, but to argue they leave the Mac bested by any type of sales or attendance measuring sticks is like whistling in the dark. Want to compare official sales charts?

snoot Quote:
Popular culture! That's beside the point! They were inducting FLEETWOOD MAC, the band, not individual, cherry picked members of it. Or at least, THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN. Sorry you think it all boils down to how that bloody board sees things. How friggen lame.

I agree it's lame, but it's the Hall of Fame. Any body that would put Madonna in before Yes, Rush, or Genesis is, by definition, lame.

We agree here, big time. There's hope yet!

snoot Quote:
If it was all about "popular culture," how did half the acts that grace that Hall get it there? Starting with the Velvet Underground and Sex Pistols!

Because, those bands have had a lasting impact on popular culture. Punk rock and art rock are as alive today as ever, and most of those bands cite VU or the Pistols as influences. Hell, I was listening to both bands earlier today.

Before you were arguing no hits=no dice. So how many ways should we dice this thing up? While neither of us can say for certain what makes up the so called criteria, or more importantly what goes on behind the scenes, one thing is for certain: there are a HELLUVA lot of musicians in there that couldn't measure up to Welch's navel, let alone musical heights and accomplishments. You just named two imo.

snoot Quote:
Ha! Now you're rewriting history according to how the uninformed see it. I cannot correlate these two adjoining phrases of yours: "Danny is honestly inconsequential" with "Yes, he was brilliant and became one of the most important members in the history of the band"! You're losing me in the contradiction.

No. I'm actually rock solid, here. One is Danny's impact on Peter Green, the other is more a reference to what he did for the band in the wake of Peter's departure. I agree with ChiliD. Peter needed a foil, and Danny happened to fit that bill. Be sure, Danny's inclusion had more to do with the fact he played in Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac than it did for Kiln House. Otherwise, Welch would have been included, too.

"Peter needed a foil, and Danny happened to fit that bill." => Uh, ok. Dang, and so simple too.

"Otherwise, Welch would have been included, too. "

How many times do I have to state this! Welch was stiffed because Chris and Mick were miffed. Period.

Be sure, Danny's inclusion had more to do with the fact he played in Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac than it did for Kiln House.

Danny's inclusion had everything to do with his impact on the Mac. If it was "justified" (and sanctified in your eyes) by his participation with PGFM, so be it.

I know too well his importance to the band. But, it's not the Important to the History of Fleetwood Mac Hall of Fame, it's the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. They don't care about the history of Fleetwood Mac, they care about Fleetwood Mac's impact on rock music/popular culture. The two variants of Fleetwood Mac that had that impact were Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac, of which Danny was a part, and the Rumours band.

Dumb argument, but go on and buy into it. You'll be making the Big 5 happy. When someone - anyone - can cherry pick Bob Welch out of the FM equation, the game is up. Checkmate.

snoot Quote:
To cut to the chase, go read what is written above >> again. Look for the => Garcia reference. I could add others to boot, but that one will suffice nicely. HINT: It WAS the band's decision! Put 1 + 1 together man, again just use the Garcia pointer.

I'm still not conviced.

You can lead a horse to water but ... ah, forget it.

snoot Quote:
Uh, really? Mick hasn't talked to Bob Welch in years, almost two decades now I if I'm correct! Where were you when the sour grapes went down? Go look up a certain lawsuit circa 1990 or so involving Welch and The Mac. There's your answer.

Ummm, you're totally wrong. The lawsuit was settled, Bob and Mick are talking, Bob was at the band's 2003 Nashville show, and Mick recently played or agreed to play a benefit for Bob's wife. Also, Billy was involved in the Mick Fleetwood Band about two years ago, and that morphed into the Mick Fleetwood Blues Band, which is basically lead by Rick Vito. Yeah, them grapes are still sour.

Duh of course I knew the lawsuit was settled, after mucho kicking and screaming! That was hardly Bob's fault!

Ok I didn't realize there was any kind of thawing of the ice at any time. And I don't know if the ill feelings are fully healed, or if the communication lines are still working, as we speak. My impression is that they are not. But more importantly, what you've presented is all after the fact, and has nothing to do with what went down at HOF in '98. Bob was passed over on purpose, by Mick & Chris in particular (and possibly John, though I wonder if he would have preferred it that way if left to his own devices), not the HOF board. Keep repeating your mantra so you keep yourself convinced. "La La La" works too.

But since you want to pull out basically irrelevant quotes to support your misinformed position and sidetrack what I'm trying to tell you, try this (and note, all from ONE SINGLE Q&A session, but I could pull plenty more! But alas, what would be the point? You'll believe what you want to!).

[See next post for quotes]

[snoot]

One year after HOF ceremony ...

Bob Welch, Penguin Q&A session, November 8 - 21, 1999

Bob, I have been a fan for years. The new album is great. Have you had any discussions with Mick about releasing any of the rare tracks from 1970-1974 that never made it to a Fleetwood Mac album? (Bill, Bel Air, Maryland, USA)

I'm glad you like "Bop" ! It makes me happy that somebody can enjoy a completely "non-commercial, non-marketing oriented" record !

The way it looks now, I may never talk to Mick again about anything, unless he should happen to take some "human being lessons" and some "reality check classes". I WOULD like to talk to him, because I used to ENJOY talking to him; he's very bright and has a wonderfully skewed sense of humor. Unfortunately, his sense of humor didn't seem to extend to the money they owed me ! (Or maybe it did..now I get it ! It was all a joke!...;-) Seriously, the only thing I would imagine Mick is interested in releasing is (1) Anything with Pete Green on it and, (2) anything with Stevie and Lindsey on it...
-- "Bop" Welch

Since the lawsuit in the early 1990s, have you been in contact with the other members of Fleetwood Mac? (Mark Trauernicht, Alexandria, Virginia, USA)

Hi Mark..

BTW thanks for your nice comments on my new CD ! I talk to Stevie once or twice a year, and always go to her show if she's in town... Of course my "beef" was not anything to do with Stevie or Lindsey anyway. I haven't talked to Mick, John, or Chris at all, and frankly don't expect to..

Will we ever get to hear that track that was left off of 'Mystery to Me', "Good Things (Come To Those Who Wait)"? (Mark Trauernicht, Alexandria, Virginia, USA)

Good Things" is owned by WB records, and if it was ever released, Mick , John Chris and I would have to mutually agree to it, and I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon !;-) The tape's probably self-destructed by now anyway.. ;-)

Who did you enjoy working with and why? (Jocelyn, Ruidoso, New Mexico, USA)

I enjoyed working with Jeff Baxter, because he pushes you really hard artistically. Also Alvin Taylor, my "French Kiss" drummer, and of course Fleetwood Mac, back in the happy "good old days", BWAGBAT- "Before We All Got Bitter And Twisted". ;-)

What IS up between you & the rest of F-Mac, individually or collectively?

Its an understatement to say that I was OUTRAGED at your omission from being inducted into the R&R Hall Of Fame with them! Mick's been quoted as saying, "Bob Welch saved Fleetwood Mac" and I remember the whole "bogus band" fiasco (even had tickets for one of the bogus concerts, but thanks to an informed DJ on the radio, I didn't go). Was Mick's book accurate in telling the tale of those days? (there has been speculation of the accuracy of events recounted in there being overblown for "book sales").

It just seems like you were given the short end of the stick for all you did for the band; and now it seems (from a public standpoint) in the Fleetwood Mac camp, your a "person non grata". Would that be an accurate assumption? If you would, please explain your side of the story.

Less controversial questions next time, I promise! (Steve Denison, Long Beach, California, USA)

What's up between me and the other members of FM is, I talk to Stevie and Bob Weston fairly frequently, don't talk to Mick, John or Chris at all since the lawsuit.

The RnR hall of fame thing hurt my feelings, naturally, but I think Mick would've done that even before the lawsuit. Here's why; Mick (and John, and Chris) associate Pete Green with the high flying glory days of their youth, when FM was first breaking out in Europe. They associate Stevie and Lindsey, naturally enough, with the most glamorous, successful and exciting period in FMs' history, when FM became worldwide stars. They associate MY 5 years with the band, in contrast, with a very difficult time emotionally, which it was; losing Pete Green, having to redefine what their music would be, the Davis lawsuit etc.

Even though the band survived because of what we went through in that period, it's not pleasant to think about for them,and so they DON'T think about it and pretend it doesn't exist. Of course I'm sure Stevie and Lindsey think all this b.s is pretty irrelevant , which it is, for them. Gee I'm starting to sound like Xavier Pacheco ! ;-) Stevie has always been great to me BTW... My beef with Mick, John, and Chris had absolutely nothing to do with her, or Lindsey.

What has been your greatest contribution to Fleetwood Mac? and how do you feel about the poor judgement of the Rock n' Roll Hall Of Fame excluding you as a member of Fleetwood Mac? (Anonymous)

I talked about the rock n roll HOF thing in an earlier question; please take a look at that ....;-)

I think my contribution to FM,looking back, is that I helped them redefine their sound they had lost their founding member. And, I helped them survive, as a working band, long enough to get to LA (it was my suggestion that we move there) and get a new deal on WB separate from their former manager Clifford Davis.

Hello, Bob! First let me say that your music is truly awesome! What are your plans for the near future? Are you planning a tour? Another new studio album? (If so, would it be more bop or a different style?) If given the opportunity, would you be interested in working on another studio album with Fleetwood Mac? (Hint, hint...)

Thanks, and keep up the GREAT work! (John Mauro, Almond, New York, USA)

Thanx for your nice review of my new CD! I'm not planning a tour...Maybe if the CD does real well ! I don't think I'd do another "Bop" album again, because I'm not really a jazz musician, I'm really just a BE-Bop FAN ! I'll certainly be doing another studio album at some point though. It'd be fun to be in the studio with FM, but I don't think that's likely to happen, given that I don't speak to Mick, John, or Chris. Maybe me, Lindsey, Stevie, Billy Burnette, and Rick Vito should form a band...we could call it the "Ex-Macs"!

Thanks for the great musical memories. Is there any chance of you playing with Mick, John and Chris again ? Id love to hear a new live version of "Hypnotized" or "Sentimental Lady". (Dave Podolske, Round Lake Beach, Illinois, USA)

Right now me, and Mick , John and Chris have not spoken in 5 years. That may never change ! I may someday re-record "Hypnotized" etc on my own...

What was Stevie Nicks like? I hear she was very funny, is that true? Are you a fan of her music? Did you two ever date? Have you spoken to her recently? What did you think of Fleetwood Mac after you left and it turned from blues to the way it is now? Thanks. (Melissa, Hemet, California, USA)

Yes, Stevie has a great sense of humor..she always has a "twinkle" in her eye ! We never dated, although I would sometimes hang out at her house, often with my girlfriend along. Stevie seemed to like to have a lot of people, other musicians etc. around.

I'm a big fan of her music.... I think she's one of the most UNIQUE writer/singers ever ! I spoke to her last time she was through Nashville, maybe 6 months ago....

Fleetwood Mac was already making the change from straight blues to the more harmony vocal type sound when I was in the band. In fact, I think I helped them do that.. Thanks for your question !

Hi Bob! Thanks so much for doing this Q&A! I love your new CD, and I especially love your work with Fleetwood Mac. Do you have any favorite song or album from your Mac days? Also, have you ever considered teaming up with any of the old Mac members for an album or some other project? You and Christine together wrote some of the best songs Fleetwood Mac has ever had, and you and Bob Weston complemented each other on the guitar beautifully.

Thanks a lot! (Jim, Ft. Lauderdale, Florida, USA)

I'm so glad you like my new CD! It means everything to an artist to get that kind of feedback, to know you've "connected"!

My favorite song that I wrote from the old days is "Hypnotized". It had the "magic". My favorite song from before me is "Oh Well" and "Black Magic Woman", Pete Greens tunes. My favorite Christine song from the old days is probably "Jumping At Shadows" and " Come A Little Bit Closer" (cause I LOVE "overproductions"! ;-).

Thanks for your compliments about me and Christine! I don't see us ever working together again....they dislike me because I sued them, and I dislike Mick John and Chris, on that level, because I felt they "blew me off" and treated me as a non-entity, "less-than", and didn't try to work things out when they could have. So it's all a matter of attitude. Now were like one big DYSFUNCTIONAL family ! ;-) Bob Weston and I are still good friends, and I agree; I love Bob's guitar playing !

-----

Need any other proof, or are ready to concede snoot isn't pulling a bunch smoke and mirror claims here?

PS. We've gotta stop meeting in this way! Oh, and "your move" -- if you insist.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by snoot

And of course, Grateful Dead dwarf Fleetwood Mac in raw "power," ROTFL! Have you ever compared their record sales, let alone impact on "pop culture"? Give me a break.

Okay, then. Weak sales=not worthy of induction. Thanks for proving the Hall's point with Fleetwood Mac. Garcia was worth $250+million when he died. Do you think he made that through lousy sales and neckties?

That's bull. They didn't "argue" or push at all. They kept the limelight all for themselves. But keep dreaming if that's your preference.

There's no proof, though. And, other bands have had similar issues.

The Grateful Dead, by contrast, had been a pretty consistent draw for nearly 30 years by the time they were inducted. Not only were they one of the biggest bands ever, they were their own counter-culture in a way Fleetwood Mac could never have dreamed of. Jerry Garcia and Bob Weir are the two most recorded guitarists ever.

More exaggerations. The Dead have not outdrawn FM since the Buckingham-Nicks era. There have been attendance lulls for both band over the years, often due to changing or MIA personnel. Counter-culture doesn't equate to "popular culture", nor record sales. The Dead are a big act, but to argue they leave the Mac bested by any type of sales or attendance measuring sticks is like whistling in the dark. Want to compare official sales charts?

Where did I say they outdrew Fleetwood Mac? I said they were a pretty consistent draw for nearly thirty years. From 1965 until Garcia's death, the band toured every year, except 1975, and they still managed four shows that year. At the time of their induction, they were one of the top drawing acts for several years. Fleetwood Mac does not have anything like the Deadheads. There are the Stevie fans, and DavidMn, but they're a rarity. Plus, look at bands like Phish, Dave Matthews Band, and EVEN PETER GREEN that list the Dead as inluences. People tend to list Peter Green or Stevie Nicks as influences, but rarely any of the others. And, when they were inducted, they had been out of a relative state of current obscurity for all of eight months. The Dead were in a MUCH better place to negotiate their induction. (The best part is the Hall met Jerry's demands, and he still skipped the ceremony.)

Before you were arguing no hits=no dice.

Yes, as it relates to Fleetwood Mac's induction.

So how many ways should we dice this thing up? While neither of us can say for certain what makes up the so called criteria, or more importantly what goes on behind the scenes, one thing is for certain: there are a HELLUVA lot of musicians in there that couldn't measure up to Welch's navel, let alone musical heights and accomplishments. You just named two imo.

But, Welch didn't have the sustained impact on culture that those bands had. I'd bet my life savings that more young musicians will cite the Sex Pistols or Velvet Underground as influences than Bob Welch. That's not a knock on Bob, BTW. That's just dumb luck.

How many times do I have to state this! Welch was stiffed because Chris and Mick were miffed. Period.

And your proof? Because here's how I see it: Other bands have had key members excluded by the Hall, and John McVie is STILL miffed at Danny Kirwan, yet Danny was still included.

Danny's inclusion had everything to do with his impact on the Mac. If it was "justified" (and sanctified in your eyes) by his participation with PGFM, so be it.

His inclusion was along the lines of Joe Negroni of Frankie Lymon and the Teenagers. Yeah, he was in an influential band, but he wasn't the star, and would have been completely forgotten if it hadn't been for Frankie Lymon. But, yeah, I suppose he had an impact on Frakie Lymon and the Teenagers.

I know too well his importance to the band. But, it's not the Important to the History of Fleetwood Mac Hall of Fame, it's the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. They don't care about the history of Fleetwood Mac, they care about Fleetwood Mac's impact on rock music/popular culture. The two variants of Fleetwood Mac that had that impact were Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac, of which Danny was a part, and the Rumours band.

Dumb argument, but go on and buy into it. You'll be making the Big 5 happy. When someone - anyone - can cherry pick Bob Welch out of the FM equation, the game is up. Checkmate.

Hey, I'm just explaining the logic. I never said I approved. Reality can be a real sumbitch sometimes.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by snoot

Need any other proof, or are ready to concede snoot isn't pulling a bunch smoke and mirror claims here?

It doesn't really prove anything, though. It's all speculation on Bob's part, which was clouded by his anger at the band at that time. I wanna know what was said to who before I judge the situation.

[snoot]

Well you present your case (and not poorly either), and I present mine. We'll have to agree to disagree then.

The two key points where we disagree the most are over who was behind the stiffing of Bob, and a full appreciation of that which Danny brought to Fleetwood Mac. I call that the unwritten story that those "smarter than thou" music critics will never get, with their ceaseless and blind obsession towards Peter at the expense of all else. Now of course I never knew just "star power" (ergo, the "stars" of a band) justifies inclusion at HOF. Novel concept they got going there, if nothing else. Maybe that's but another reason that Hall is so widely derided.

Now of course if that should really be the case (hmmm?), thank God Jerry pushed harder for his secondary, you know, non-Weir mates. Who knew how easy they might have been looked over, and expended for not measuring up. What a guy! Man, the tricks that guy can pull! And by extension (and not a mystery to me), what pathetic pushovers that makes Mick & the Gang! What can you say? Dead Power, never underestimate it!

And yes, reality - "as framed" - can be a real sumbitch sometimes, especially in all its glorious prisms and hues. Too bad too.

Ciao

[snoot]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

It doesn't really prove anything, though. It's all speculation on Bob's part, which was clouded by his anger at the band at that time. I wanna know what was said to who before I judge the situation.

Uh, OK. And yeah, what would HE know about it all?!! LOL

Suck it up Bob! You'z got to get wid da program man!