Are you Team Lindsey or Team Fleetwood Mac? Who are u routing for in the lawsuit?

[sodascouts]

Opinions about whether or not songs are quality are subjective; if you don't like something, that's your right, but that doesn't mean it's garbage.

I can't prove a song is good to you, because it might not be to your tastes. You have to listen and decide.

The opinions of critics and the position on the charts will not make you like that song if you've found it unenjoyable (although some people are mature enough to recognize markers of quality even in songs and artists they don't personally enjoy).

But respect others enough to refrain from saying that their favorite songwriter is worthless at songwriting. If you can't do that, at least garner enough self-awareness to realize that your proclamation that someone is lacking songwriting talent is not an objective measure.... no matter how many times you repeat it.

[Sugar Mouse]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

This. I think that hits the nail on the head when it comes to Lindsey. He had one truly solid solo album (Out of the Cradle in 1993) followed by solo efforts with fewer and fewer actually good songs on them. I listened to his most recent studio album Seeds We Sow a bunch of times and I just kept thinking how uncatchy and monotonous the songs were; I can't even remember one by name today. At the same time, his production style (sped up/whispered/sampled vocals, guitar effects, etc.), which was once quite novel, has become stale and dated. It becomes quite glaring on the LB/CM album because Christine's songs are so melodic, emotionally honest and catchy while Lindsey's songs are mostly just pleasant-but-generic power pop numbers with oblique, unimaginative lyrics. It's like John Lennon's Double Fantasy album and Christine is John while Lindsey is Yoko. None of this discounts Lindsey's incredible body of work from early in his career (up to 1993). But to say that he is some kind of visionary genius is quite a stretch in consideration of the overall mediocrity of the last 25 years of his output.

Really insightful post. It's wonderful how you expressed your opinions so kindly, but accurately. No one is denying the talents of Lindsey Buckingham who has extraordinary prowess as a guitar wizard and production artist. And it's no put down to say someone isn't quite the songwriter that Christine and Stevie have been.

[Sugar Mouse]

Originally Posted by DownOnRodeo

If you spent less time watching Neil Finn lecture on why people other than him are not as good at songwriting, and more time listening to Lindsey Buckingham's solo catalog (which is not that extensive), you would have heard all of the latter's solo songs by now. And if after a few listens you still don't think many or any of them are "great," that's your prerogative. The one thing I'm not inclined to do is to attempt arguing my own views on the matter here on Lindsey's Rumours forum with Neil Finn as a constant reference point (explicit or implicit).

I encourage you to start a thread over on the Lindsey solo forum if you'd like to poll people's favorite tracks from his latter years.

Hi Joe,

I've been listening to the Lindsey Anthology for days now but will keep listening. It's actually growing on me; some really good stuff there. It's odd that you thought that I wrote that Neil said that no one else is as good a songwriter as he is. I never said that and Neil never said that in his Yale University lecture. Neil is one of the most humble musicians you'll ever meet. The lecture is on the Yale University website if you want to watch the lecture. The point that Neil was making is that it's very difficult to be a great songwriter if you're extraordinary at your chosen instrument. He described a concept where songwriters must be driven up until and beyond the boundaries of their musical talents in order to discover a great song. And this process is more difficult when an artist is already at or near the peak of musical proficiency. It's a fascinating point that elite musical talent can be a hindrance to great songwriting. Neil would be the first to admit that he's a solid, but not great, guitarist and pianist. If you think about it, most of the greatest songwriters of all-time are/were solid but not elite musicians. This concept may explain why Stevie (who's far from a great musician) has written more great songs than an extraordinary musician like Lindsey. Others who fit this are McCartney, Lennon, Dylan, and Petty who are/were phenomenal songwriters but not extraordinary musicians.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by Sugar Mouse

Hi Joe,

I've been listening to the Lindsey Anthology for days now but will keep listening. It's actually growing on me; some really good stuff there. It's odd that you thought that I wrote that Neil said that no one else is as good a songwriter as he is. I never said that and Neil never said that in his Yale University lecture. Neil is one of the most humble musicians you'll ever meet. The lecture is on the Yale University website if you want to watch the lecture. The point that Neil was making is that it's very difficult to be a great songwriter if you're extraordinary at your chosen instrument. He described a concept where songwriters must be driven up until and beyond the boundaries of their musical talents in order to discover a great song. And this process is more difficult when an artist is already at or near the peak of musical proficiency. It's a fascinating point that elite musical talent can be a hindrance to great songwriting. Neil would be the first to admit that he's a solid, but not great, guitarist and pianist. If you think about it, most of the greatest songwriters of all-time are/were solid but not elite musicians. This concept may explain why Stevie (who's far from a great musician) has written more great songs than an extraordinary musician like Lindsey. Others who fit this are McCartney, Lennon, Dylan, and Petty who are/were phenomenal songwriters but not extraordinary musicians.

Blah, blah, blah.

Richard Thompson

(mic drop...)

[DownOnRodeo]

To be honest, Sugar Mouse, I wouldn't even necessarily claim that Lindsey is an EXTRAORDINARY musician (ie instrumentalist), and nor would he. He is the first to note that he is a self-taught, untrained 'noodler,' and that, for example, electric guitar solos have never been his niche.

Lindsey is no Tommy Emmanuel, for example.


So even if we except(edit: accept) the Yale Dissertation that EXTRAORDINARY instrumentalists tend not to be GREAT songwriters, I don't believe that applies to Lindsey Buckingham anyway, who is an impressive and unique instrumentalist but sees himself first and foremost as a crafter of songs--ie the poetry of songwriting and all the rest of it.

[David]

Originally Posted by Sugar Mouse

Your saying that Lindsey's solo work is critically acclaimed doesn't make it true. Lindsey's work in FM has been critically acclaimed no doubt. His solo work not so much. His overall Metacritic solo album ranking (includes all major publications) is 76 out of 100 which puts him in the "generally favorable" region and not critically acclaimed.

But you're arguing that Stevie's solo work has the edge, yet Metacritic rates her a 68.

Incidentally, have you spent any time reading reviews of the Buckingham and Nicks solo albums in the Blue Letter Archives, as I suggested? Spend some time checking out what the country's top rock critics had to say about each of them in Rolling Stone, the Village Voice, the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, Stereo Review, the Record, Guitar Player, the San Francisco Chronicle, the Boston Globe, the Philadelphia Enquirer, the Washington Post, and so on.

You'll find a very clear pattern of critical praise for his solo work since 1981, and at best reserved approval of her work since 1981. You'll find generally the same critical treatment of the two of them in Fleetwood Mac, too, if you look at both album reviews and concert reviews. Exceptions here and there over time, but the pattern is precisely what I said it was: historically, he's the critics' pet and she's the wildly popular solo performer with the big following.

I know you've been browbeaten in this forum lately, and I feel a bit bad for you. But I do wish you'd engage with me and others with some intellectual honesty instead of treating everybody flippantly and condescendingly. If you insist on being contrarian and perverse, I'll talk to somebody else.

[Sugar Mouse]

Originally Posted by David

But you're arguing that Stevie's solo work has the edge, yet Metacritic rates her a 68.

Incidentally, have you spent any time reading reviews of the Buckingham and Nicks solo albums in the Blue Letter Archives, as I suggested? Spend some time checking out what the country's top rock critics had to say about each of them in Rolling Stone, the Village Voice, the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, Stereo Review, the Record, Guitar Player, the San Francisco Chronicle, the Boston Globe, the Philadelphia Enquirer, the Washington Post, and so on.

You'll find a very clear pattern of critical praise for his solo work since 1981, and at best reserved approval of her work since 1981. You'll find generally the same critical treatment of the two of them in Fleetwood Mac, too, if you look at both album reviews and concert reviews. Exceptions here and there over time, but the pattern is precisely what I said it was: historically, he's the critics' pet and she's the wildly popular solo performer with the big following.

I know you've been browbeaten in this forum lately, and I feel a bit bad for you. But I do wish you'd engage with me and others with some intellectual honesty instead of treating everybody flippantly and condescendingly. If you insist on being contrarian and perverse, I'll talk to somebody else.

My original point was in response to folks here who think that Lindsey’s solo work has been critically acclaimed and that’s not true. Is his solo work more acclaimed than Stevie’s? Perhaps but neither has had a critically acclaimed solo career based on Metacritic or AllMusic or Pitchfork or wherever. I’m happy to be proven wrong so please post some links from reputable sources that rate Lindsey’s solo albums so highly because I can’t find them.

[SteveMacD]

Not that my opinion matters, but my top ten Mac solo albums:

Peter: In The Skies
Mick: The Visitor
John: Gotta Band (surprisingly enjoyable)
Christine: s/t 1984
Stevie: Bella Donna
Lindsey OOTC
Danny: s/t (aka Midnight In San Juan)
Bob Welch: French Kiss
Stevie: The Wild Heart
Billy: Are You With Me Baby

Honorable mentions, but not included because I only count works post-Fleetwood Mac…

A Hard Road -John Mayall & The Bluesbreakers
Buckingham Nicks
Alone Together -Dave Mason
Traffic -Traffic/Dave Mason
O.K. Ken? -Chicken Shack
Between Friends -Billy
Crowded House -CH

[David]

Originally Posted by Sugar Mouse

My opinion is that Stevie is a far better songwriter than Lindsey while Lindsey is, without question, a far better arranger/producer. Lindsey has never written a song of the quality of "Sisters of The Moon", "Dreams", "Beautiful Child", "Storms", "Sara", "Gypsy", "Rhiannon", "Silver Springs" ... and the list goes on and on. Of course, that's my opinion and others are free to disagree. I've listened repeatedly to Lindsey's solo albums and his recent Anthology and I find most of his songs without sufficient melodic flow and dynamic variance. Some of them are exercises in guitar prowess, but that doesn't make them good songs.

I'm not contrasting the songwriting merits of Lindsey and Stevie (although that would be fun). I'm saying that Lindsey is historically the critical darling in Fleetwood Mac, not Stevie. That was my point in response to your mention of Metacritic and AllMusic. I recommended that you read the vast body of criticism on their respective solo work to support my conclusion.

[David]

Originally Posted by Sugar Mouse

My original point was in response to folks here who think that Lindsey’s solo work has been critically acclaimed and that’s not true.

It is true, cowboy.

Originally Posted by Sugar Mouse

Is his solo work more acclaimed than Stevie’s?

Yes, by an Olympic-length swimming pool. This is precisely what I am asserting.

Originally Posted by Sugar Mouse

Perhaps but neither has had a critically acclaimed solo career based on Metacritic or AllMusic or Pitchfork or wherever. I’m happy to be proven wrong so please post some links from reputable sources that rate Lindsey’s solo albums so highly because I can’t find them.

Did you look through the Blue Letter Archives (for the third time)? I've given you large lists of critics, newspapers, and magazines. Take it away! I'll give you a start: the reviews of Law and Order in Stereo Review and Rolling Stone.

Again, my argument is not that Lindsey is a great songwriter (although I think he's pretty good) or that Stevie isn't a great songwriter (although I think she's pretty good). Lindsey as a solo dude has had the highest reputation in the rock press among the Fleetwood Macsters since 1981.
________________________________________________________________________________

Rolling Stone Album Review
August 30, 1984

Go Insane (4 out 5 stars)
Lindsey Buckingham
Elektra/Asylum

Lindsey Buckingham’s Tuneful Triumph:
Fleetwood Mac’s guitarist sounds like an Eighties version of Brian Wilson
by Christopher Connelly

When many California-based musicians were taking the punk-New Wave movement as a personal affront, Lindsey Buckingham of Fleetwood Mac was taking it as a challenge. From 1979’s "Tusk" on, this songwriter, singer and guitarist has struggled to combine the wildest possibilities of new music with the folk-fostered melodies that have marked his most commercially fruitful efforts. "Go Insane" is a triumphant culmination of this effort - the richest, most fascinatingly tuneful album of the year.

Buckingham’s strongest influence has always been Brian Wilson, the out-there but studio-savvy Beach Boy with an impeccable pop ear. Yet while Wilson’s music speaks with an airy, wouldn’t it be nice optimism, Buckingham’s work reveals a slightly warped obsessiveness. He uses music the way Talking Heads’ David Byrne uses words: taking simple, even clichéd, constructions and tossing them together in unexpected combinations.

That potent, brainy mixture is further invigorated on "Go Insane" by a dollop of seething sexual passion. "I guess I had to prove I was someone hard to lose," Buckingham chants before kicking into the dazzling, "I Want You," perhaps his most nakedly emotional song to date. A gleeful keyboard hook explodes into an aural torrent: synthesizers, guitars and drums rage, as Buckingham furiously cries out his heart’s dichotomy: "I’m a bundle of joy, a pocketful of tears/Got enough of both to last all the years."

Lyrically, "Go Insane" limns a painful breakup: "Hey little girl, leave the little drug along," he pleads in "I Must Go," and similar strains of dark-etched longing appear throughout the record. But Buckingham’s words - although they are intriguingly unsettling - take a back seat to the parade of toe-tapping sound here. Even though he plays almost every instrument on the album, Buckingham avoids the cluttered, too-perfect sheen often associated with West Coast music. The rough edges are still there, and the overall sound has lightness that enhances the record’s emotional impact.

On that score, "Bang the Drum" is Go Insane’s finest achievement. Its ticktock, ethereally intoned verse drifts off into a gloriously cascading chorus and a bridge that’s thick with ear-pleasing harmonies, with a stinging guitar solo to boot. More of Buckingham’s axe work is on display in the uptempo "Loving Cup," which fuses the snaky lines of "Gold Dust Woman" with the spare, threatening whomp of "Tusk"’s undiscovered treasure, "Not That Funny."

Even the more commercially minded songs are infused with Buckingham’s newfound boldness. While his first solo album, "Law and Order," featured the mild-mannered "Trouble," "Go Insane" offers the Mark Lindsayish title song, all hard edges and pungent longing ("I call your name/She’s a lot like you"). Similarly, a whipcrack backbeat kicks "Slow Dancing" out of the living room and onto the dance floor where it belongs.

Admittedly, the found-sound antics of the two-part "Play in the Rain" (glasses of water being poured, heels clip-clopping across a sidewalk) pale after a couple of listenings, though Buckingham’s sitarlike fretboard runs add some excitement. But then there’s "D.W. Suite," a three-part valediction to the late Dennis Wilson in which Buckingham really pulls out the stops: Laurie Anderson-style vocal effects, a harp interlude, a synthesized Ed Sullivan introduction, a Beach Boys-type chorus and a Scottish flute march. "D.W. Suite" may be pop’s most elaborate farewell, but its flashy eclecticism is reined in throughout by Buckingham’s keen rock & roll sense.

Artistically, "Go Insane" is a breakthrough album not just for the thirty-six-year-old Buckingham, but conceivably for rock & roll as well, representing as it does the most successful combination yet of hummable Seventies slick rock and Eighties avant-edge. If Lindsey Buckingham really is following in the footsteps of his idol, then "Go Insane" is his "Pet Sounds": possibly his least commercial work, but also his most daring and savory.
______________________________________________________________________________________

Rolling Stone Album Review
November 26, 1981

Law and Order (4 out of 5 stars)
Lindsey Buckingham
Asylum

Lindsey Buckingham’s perfect silliness
by Jon Pareles

In his own way, Lindsey Buckingham is a rock-ribbed traditionalist, but the tradition he valiantly and self-consciously upholds on his first solo album, "Law and Order," isn’t hallowed and funky like rockabilly or Cajun music, Buckingham’s tradition is that of the bigtime Hollywood wacko - perfectly symbolized by Brian Wilson in his sandbox - who creates, amid decadence and craziness, pop songs that are drenched in sweetly accessible innocence. It’s the tradition of the copyright-royalties royalty whose fortunes have been made in three-minute bursts, a subculture as hermetic and all-American as the Mardi Gras Indians, albeit at the opposite end of the economic spectrum. At its best, it boasts its own wild-eyed naiveté. The idea of a grown man sitting in his basement singing "rah-ta-ta-ta" repeatedly into a microphone that costs more than my whole stereo - well, somehow, there’s a certain ironic charm.

Of course, Buckingham has earned his playtime. With a little help from group chemistry, he turned flat-footed, middleweight Fleetwood Mac into a sparkling ubiquity (even if you don’t own "Fleetwood Mac" or "Rumours," it’s guaranteed you know someone who does). An avowed Beach Boys fan, Buckingham probably coaxed his band mates into intricate harmonizing, and he definitely had a hand in giving Fleetwood Mac’s records that everything-is-beautiful California gloss. Based on the evidence of "Law and Order," however, Lindsey Buckingham’s biggest contribution to Fleetwood Mac has been his unabashed fondness for pop music at its most hokey and hooky - not just sculpting vocal harmonies but carefully designing each phrase to tickle some pleasure center, no matter what the lyrics happen to say. Pop must come to him almost by reflex. Interestingly, Buckingham also has a rock & roll urge that shows itself in screaming guitar solos (as on "Fleetwood Mac Live") and funny noises (all over "Tusk"). As Los Angeles archetypes go, Buckingham is definitely more Turtle than Eagle: at a certain point, he’s happy to let his silliness conquer his perfectionism. And once Rumours went over the top, the artist apparently decided he could trust his reflexes and use loose ends as embellishments.

So now that he’s proved himself a pro, Lindsey Buckingham can make like a happy amateur. Except for one drum-and-bass track and a background vocal here and there, Law and Order is a one-man disc. If Buckingham needs to extend his range or techniques, he utilizes obvious tape tricks, strictly on the up and up. The LP could be an extension of the star’s tunes on Tusk: basement tapes with a million-dollar mix, while Buckingham and coproducer Richard Dashut try to hold back the giggles. Like the best die-hard popsters, Buckingham writes songs that seem both effortless and encyclopedic. "Love from Here, Love from There" second-lines as if the twenty-four track machine were a New Orleans secret, and "Shadow of the West" brings the Drifting Cowboys to the edge of the Pacific. "That’s How We Do It in L.A." sports a jug-band swagger, complete with a drum-kit version of washboard percussion and a guitar that sounds like a kazoo.

Most of Buckingham’s hat tips go directly to the Beach Boys and the Beatles. "Bwana" uses the bass line from "I want to Hold Your Hand" (hence the title?) and keyboards related to "Surfin’ Safari." "Trouble," with its steady quarter-note rhythms, zither hook and air of wistful autism, is Brian Wilson to the core. Throughout the album, Buckingham’s vocal harmonies are inspired by the Beach Boys songbook - he seems to have all of their ranges in his voice - while some of the mixes, like the left and right drum fills in "Mary Lee Jones," echo the goofy stereo of early Beatles records.

Then again, the last thing Lindsey Buckingham needs to borrow is goofiness. Since Buckingham’s idea of drumming and Dashut’s sound are fervently unconventional, the homemade arrangements are eccentric from the bottom up: every cut has a pinch of skiffle. Above that, the artist builds airy vocal chorales and laceworks of guitar - pure confection - except that every so often a track runs wild and gets derailed. For most of "Mary Lee Jones," Buckingham sustains a single guitar note at the center of the harmony. Suddenly, this note blasts into fuzzed-out blues licks, like a Maserati pulling loose from a snowdrift. The singer sobs histrionically at the end of "I’ll Tell You Now" (after, incidentally, not telling us anything) and does his finest Frankenstein shtick in the middle of "Johnny Stew," which is "World Turning" on its side. Probably only Buckingham and Dashut know what else is buried in the mix.

These guys aren’t just farting around, though they don’t seem to mind if they do. Each slapstick overdub is a reminder that pop is a confection, that the innocence is phony - enjoy the hooks but don’t kid yourself. Buckingham has a much fun popping the bubble as he does filling it full of wind. On side one of "Law and Order," he acts like Nick Lowe or the Barry Manilow of "Copacabana," couching his skepticism in smiley vocals and lyrics that merely hint at mayhem. In "Bwana," he sings the line "We all have our demons" in falsetto, while "Mary Lee Jones" is about her miserable "final days" (suicide?), though you’d never guess it from the star’s one-man-Jordan-aires backups. Buckingham drops the mask a little more on side two, which opens with a Fifties torch-style rendition of Kurt Weill and Maxwell Anderson’s "September Song." With "Shadow of the West," he becomes absolutely direct. "Shadow of the West" lets you suspend all disbelief as cumulus-cloud harmonies float above the melody, only to clarify Buckingham’s message: "More and more, I feel less and less."

Still, Buckingham hardly wants us to feel sorry for him. The rest of the side is nasty comedy - are the background vocals in "That’s How We Do It in L.A." really saying, "****ed up"? - until the final number. "Satisfied Mind" addresses but can’t answer the question Buckingham expects us to ask: who cares about a rich man’s hobby? The old-timers who wrote the tune thought that a "satisfied mind" was better than any riches, and Buckingham proves he was once a folkie as he sings the song straight, with easy nasal harmonies. There it sits, the send-off on an LP of pop contrivances. But Lindsey Buckingham knows we don’t have to believe it for a second.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Rolling Stone, December 20, 1984

Year in Albums

by Kurt Loder

Go Insane: Lindsey Buckingham (Elektra/Asylum)

Before hardcore blossomed, a lot of the New Wave-pop-punk music from California - sealed off as it was from what East Coasters and Brits saw as the real action - seemed self-contradictorily slick and hermetic. Erstwhile Fleetwood Mac member Lindsey Buckingham was one of the few mainstream musicians to dig into new-music styles and dynamics in a serious way and to bring to them already imposing skills as a writer, guitarist and producer; but his music, too, seems insular and sometimes airless.

Oddly, this is by his own design.

"Go Insane," Buckingham's second solo album, is a singular mix of Seventies sheen and Eighties edge, enormously inventive in every respect, from the dazzling, "I Want You" and the melodiously cascading "Bang the Drum" to the furiously eclectic "D.W. Suite," a homage to the late Beach Boy Dennis Wilson. But even though Roy Thomas Baker was brought in to oversee the production this time, Buckingham still played almost every instrument on the album, and sometimes one longs for a little more outside input - a slap on the head here, a kick in the ass there.

Buckingham is a studio oddball in the grand California tradition of Kenny Young, Curt Boetcher and Van Dyke Parks, and like them, he may never be truly appreciated by the masses - which would be a shame, because his talents are too big to be contained by simple pop stardom, and besides, rock needs all the nut-case savants it can get.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by David

It is true, cowboy.

Who cares about reviews and whatnot?

Rolling Stone gave one of the most amazing reviews I’ve ever seen for “Out Of The Cradle.” Then again, two years earlier, the very same Rolling Stone said that Billy Burnette and Rick Vito were the best thing to ever (EVER!!!) happen to Fleetwood Mac.

What’s good and/or critically acclaimed isn’t the same as what sells. Regardless of the reason, Stevie’s solo music sell$, and Lindsey’s doesn’t.

[Sugar Mouse]

Originally Posted by David

I'm not contrasting the songwriting merits of Lindsey and Stevie (although that would be fun). I'm saying that Lindsey is historically the critical darling in Fleetwood Mac, not Stevie. That was my point in response to your mention of Metacritic and AllMusic. I recommended that you read the vast body of criticism on their respective solo work to support my conclusion.

I completely agree that Lindsey is the critical darling in Fleetwood Mac albums with Christine second. However, I was talking about solo albums and Lindsey hasn't been a critical darling in his solo career.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by Sugar Mouse

I completely agree that Lindsey is the critical darling in Fleetwood Mac albums with Christine second. However, I was talking about solo albums and Lindsey hasn't been a critical darling in his solo career.

Oh, for the love of…

HE JUST POSTED ACTUAL REVIEWS!!!

[HomerMcvie]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

Oh, for the love of…

HE JUST POSTED ACTUAL REVIEWS!!!

Good luck with Sugar Mick hearing anything you say.

[DownOnRodeo]