Why aren't FM's recordings in tune?

EricBliss12345 · #1 08-05-2003, 07:14 AM

I just thought of this while posting in another thread and it's been bugging me.

One day I sat down at the piano and tried to figure out You Make Lovin' Fun from memory. I learned it in A flat minor, because that was the key I thought I remembered it being in. When I tried to play along with the CD it sounded like abosolute garbage, so I transposed what I learned to G minor, which would make more sense because I've read that Christine prefers the easy keys like G, C, F etc. Playing that song in A flat minor is a real pain in the ass. Once again, it sounded like absoulte trash in G. Tried again in G flat but that was the worst of them all. I've determined the only keys they could be in were in some in-between semi-tone key, which renders playing along to the CD's useless.

Had the same problem when I tried to play along to Morning Rain. However I played along with Never Forget and it sounded fine.

It just seems like the majority of their music sounds just a bit too sharp, and now when I hear the recordings it bothers me because my brain wants to hear it at the right pitch. I can still enjoy them but I wish I could like, retune the music. LOL

Any insight into this? I can play along with pretty much every CD I have except FM's. Most of their music is out of tune. Any insight? Thanks.

DownOnRodeo · #2 08-05-2003, 08:14 AM

Well I don't have perfect pitch like you seem to, only relative pitch. But people with perfect pitch can find it very frustrating listening to off-pitch music. I don't envy you!

It frustrates me that newish songs are suffering the same fate. Is it a deliberate studio quirk for Lindsey not to correct the pitch? That's what I assumed... it' pretty signature Lindsey

Murrow is stuck somewhere between Cm and Bm. Luckily I have a aynth so I can edit the pitch to a minute degree - you can do the same with guitars I think, but obviously on an acoustic piano you're at a loss in terms of playing to the CD - which is lots of fun - so I can imagine why it annoys you!

I've always found YMLF to be pretty squarely on Gm, give or take the expectable degradation. But for someone with perfect pitch that could be more frustrating I guess. Try Gm again - it really should be ok... it is off by a slight bit, and that might be a big bit depending on the tune of your piano (sorry, I'm not implying your piano's out of tune

just trying to cover all angles). EDIT: I just checked the 'Anthology of Classics' sheet music and yeah it's Gm. But I agree it's noticably off for a piano in good tune. Not totally off like Murrow though

Abm? Yuck - Abm/B was the last key I learnt to play ... despite my efforts to avoid it, how could I resist playing along to the new live version of Beautiful Child??

WednesdaysChild · #3 08-05-2003, 09:08 AM

I'm not a musician, per se, but have studied music for many years.

I think we need to remember that Christine is the only FM member (rumours lineup) with formal training. That might be why the other songs sound odd...Lindsey and Stevie go with what sounds good, and don't pay attention to notes or whatever--especially because Stevie can't read music (don't know about Lindsey). A lot of rock musicians play by ear and don't know anything about the written language of music.

CarneVaca · #4 08-05-2003, 11:45 AM

Not knowing how to read music or having no formal training has nothing to do with what keys you choose. Keys are all about tone and what works with your voice. So Lindsey picks up his guitar, probably tunes it to standard tuning most of the time, maybe clamps a capo somewhere up the neck and goes for it. Or if he's feeling adventurous, he might retune to drop D or whatever. Interestingly, in Guitar World Acoustic, there was a transcription of Peacekeeper. And in it, I believe the transcriber said to tune slightly flat from Gm.

The original Peackeeper was in Em. Lindsey changed keys probably to fit Stevie's voice. I can't recall, but he probably clamped a capo on, and unfortunately, capos detune your guitar ever so slightly. Usually, everything goes a little sharp. Sometimes a little flat. Rarely does the pitch remain perfect.

That may explain some songs, but not all. Sometimes studio trickery may change the pitch somewhat. Let's say Lindsey decided to slow down peacekeeper on tape. I don't know if that happened, but it's possible. That slightly flat key would have been one of the results of slowing down.

dontlookdown · #5 08-05-2003, 12:35 PM

also, it's important to remember that Lindsey usually makes up his own tunings - hence the 17 or so guitars he has backstage. Like Joni Mitchell, and a handful of other rock/folk guitar players, Lindsey - always tunes his guitars to what sounds good. Then he often loosens the strings to the point where most other players would find the sound too slack and "minor" keyish.
I imagine Chris is the same with her piano.

One of the reasons I've always been able to get FM songs under my skin is because they are a bit off center. To the untrained ear they sound sunny and major-chord oriented. But to me, I always hear the minor chords. I think it's the same reason I love Neil Young so much.

So - no FM songs are not out of tune. They are simply tuned to what they want them to be, even though it may not fit into what the mainstream fan may consider "normal".

If you want normal tunings please refer to Celine Dion or any of the other garbage on the radio today.

wetcamelfood · #6 08-05-2003, 01:46 PM

My thing is, I have perfect pitch but don't play anything. I took piano lessons when I was small but that was so long ago now that I don't remember how to read the sheet music either so I'm stuck, sorry I can't chuck in anything further here.

John

deribish · #7 08-05-2003, 02:00 PM

Often times after the music has been recorded, they will speed it up ever so slightly ... which can result in the recording being somewhat between keys.

Also, You make loving fun was initally recorded with John and Chris and Mick ...Chris playing her part on a Fender Rhodes. Unlike today's keyboards (or guitars), these vintage keyboards would often fall out of tune and are a real pain to re-tune. Perhaps John and Lindsey tuned their guitars to be in tune with her Rhodes, which may have been slightly flat.

Or even this possibility... these old albums were recorded on Old machines, old analog tapes, etc. .. Often times the speed of the tape machine can vary, so what may have been recorded on C or Bb, when replayed on a different machine for re-mastering the speed of the tape may have been slower thus taking the song down a quarter-tone or so

rcb77 · #8 08-05-2003, 02:08 PM

I can play things by ear on both guitar and piano and there are only two FM songs I can think of off-hand that are in a kind of in-between key, and they are "Murrow" and "Storms." YMLF is definitely just straight-up Gm. However, I've had experiences where I was playing along to an album, and I know my guitar is in tune but it's not sounding right. I think some players are different and change the speed ever so slightly, but enough to change the pitch a little bit. I know that's definitely the case with cassettes (I have a recording of a FM concert from '75 where the whole concert was recorded half a step low, so for example, instead of "Rhiannon" being in Am, it was in Abm), and I've had similar experiences with CDs, especially those that have been played a lot. And you're right, a capo does change the tuning of guitar slightly when you slap it on, but there's an easy way to fix that - just retune after you've put the capo on. I doubt LB would just throw a capo on a guitar and not retune before recording. Also, as an aside, I've noticed that in a lot of FM music books have songs in the wrong key. For example, I have the Anthology of Classics book mentioned earlier, and there are several songs, including "Never Going Back Again" and "Sara," that are off by a half or whole step. Anyway, something to think about...

Sarah · #9 08-05-2003, 02:19 PM

Being a musician is a pain in the ass because you always hear EVERYTHING. Sometimes I envy my friends.. you know those situations where, "did you hear that?" "that annoying thing.. that [whatever it is] part?" "umm.. no.." rewind rewind "Ohhh.. I never noticed that.." Ugh.

Lindsey must not be a stickler for perfect tuning, because I know for sure.. 100 percent.. that I'll have my guitar tuned perfectly and it sounds bad when I play along. He must just be like, "I like this right here.." and tune everything relative to that. Peacekeeper is off like, half a step when you play it tuned normally, you have to tune down for it, and YMLF is strangely off. I don't know if that was Chris' choosing because of her synthesizers falling out of tune or what.. but it is definitely off.

As for hearing minor chords in FM, I always hear them as well. But, that's probably because I like minor keys best, and most everything I write is in minor. lol.

Sarah

CarneVaca · #10 08-05-2003, 02:39 PM

I liked it much better when I was completely tone deaf. Now, while I still resort to an electronic tuner for help, I know when my guitar is out of tune.

I was happier when it didn't matter.

squealy · #11 08-05-2003, 10:34 PM

Maybe your piano's out of tune

EricBliss12345 · #12 08-06-2003, 09:26 AM

The Rhoads piano held tune, it's operating system made it impossible not to be. They were basically amplified tines. It's the hot oscilators in moogs and slipping tapes in mellotrons that caused out of tune 70s boards. A Hammond will never be out of tune either.

But what I can't stand is that I can play along to everybody else's music from the 70s that I attempt. FM's are the only recordings that sound sharp.

Quote:

Often times after the music has been recorded, they will speed it up ever so slightly ... which can result in the recording being somewhat between keys.

There's the problem.

Thanks. Why do they do that? That's stupid.