The bogus Fleetwood Mac?

greenfire · #1 11-09-2003, 01:28 PM

I remember seeing a family tree of Fleetwood Mac which showed the duration of each member and their previous affiliations. It was really impressive showing all the different branches involved, It referenced the beginnings, with bands like Peter B & the Loonies, John Mayal & the Blues Breakers, Chicken Shack, etc. It also gave a branch to the bogus Fleetwood Mac which was put together between MTM and HAHTF. I remember it even listed their names and I think their were four of them. I don't remember a female name included which would have fulfilled the role of Christine, but I could be wrong on that? I was wondering if anyone saw one of the bogus shows not knowing they would'nt be seeing the real thing? If anyone here did, what was the setlist like and did they sound good as immitators? Does anyone know how many shows they actually did before they were stopped? I'm curious if any of these replacements went on to join successfull bands?

"The Earth is good, why do we abuse it?"....Ray Thomas

ShamHy89 · #2 11-09-2003, 03:07 PM

The "bogus band" thing has always intrigued me. Not that I think it was a good thing to do, but it just seems so weird to me that they would try a stunt like that...and now live Mac performances from that era are hard to come by

Otherwise, I don't know much about them (as in who they were), but I would like to know.

Shamus

chiliD · #3 11-10-2003, 09:34 AM

The "bogus" Fleetwood Mac became a group called "Stretch". (PGSG's Nigel Watson was once a member, but long after the "bogus" thing)

A few of the members of the bogus Mac had been working with Danny Kirwan.

Johnny Stew · #4 11-10-2003, 04:31 PM

The "bogus" Fleetwood Mac featured Elmer Gantry (vocals), Kirby Gregory (guitar), Paul Martinez (bass), Craig Collinge (drums), and John Wilkinson (keyboards).

Elmer Gantry, Kirby Gregory, and Paul Martinez, went on to form the band Stretch.
Gantry had a *tiny* bit of fame in the UK before the bogus band debacle, and after Stretch, he was a vocalist for the Alan Parsons Project.

Interestingly enough, in the years after their involvement with the bogus band, Gregory played on Danny Kirwan's 'Hello There Big Boy,' and Martinez worked with Chicken Shack (Christine's former band).

Craig Collinge played drums for Manfred Mann for a while.
I'm not sure if John Wilkinson is the same fella who played guitar for Elvis Presley, or not. There's also a John Wilkinson who works as an engineer in the music industry. The bogus band's Wilkinson may not be either of these guys.

greenfire · #5 11-10-2003, 06:05 PM

Nice work chiliD & Johnny Stew--really appreciate your posts! I did'nt realize the bogus band did have ties through Danny Kirwan. Interesting, I wonder if Danny could have been approached to join the bogus band?

A side note--I don't know if Peter B & the Loonies (or Looners ?) ever did any recording but two of the members were Pete Bardens and Mick Fleetwood. I'm pretty sure it was Mick...correct me if I'm wrong???...I only have a vague recollection of the Fleetwood Mac family tree. Pete Bardens would go on to have more recognition as a solo artist and as a member of the successful progressive rock band Camel. Unfortunately, he passed away in 2002 but his last album 'The Art of Levitation' featured Mick Fleetwood on drums. I just thought it seemed kind of circular their beginnings and then to work on one final project together.

Has anyone heard 'The Art of Levitation'?

"The Earth is good, why do we abuse it?"....Ray Thomas

chiliD · #6 11-10-2003, 06:21 PM

Peter B's Looners were:

Peter Bardens: keyboards
Peter Green: guitar
Dave Ambrose: bass
Mick Fleetwood: drums

When the Looners broke up, Ambrose went (along with Bardens) to join Van Morrison in Them; Ambrose later (if not currently) played with Robin Trower...and was the bass player for Clapton's From The Cradle album...Bardens obviously went from Them to Camel (then solo)...and obviously, we know what happened to Mick Fleetwood & Peter Green.

The first two cuts on disc 1 of Fleetwood Mac's Show Biz Blues, Volume 2 set are Peter B's Looners...they were kind of the British version of "Booker T & the MG's".

As far as "Stretch":

Paul Martinez also was the bass player for Robert Plant's solo band for a time; and, played the bass when John Paul Jones switched to keyboards during the Led Zeppelin reunion set (along with Phil Collins on drums) at the US site (Philadelphia?) of the 1985 Live Aid concert. (Robbie Blunt, who was in the incarnation of Chicken Shack with Martinez, also was in Robert Plant's solo band.)

Also, the bass player who took Martinez's place (Steve Emery), went on to be the bass player for Ross (named after lead vocalist/lead guitarist, Alan Ross...who himself played on a couple of John Entwistle's solo albums)...who was signed to RSO records and was the opening act for Eric Clapton's 1974 "comeback tour".

Steve Emery ALSO played on Danny Kirwan's Midnight In San Juan album.

There's just so many "lines of connection" among musicians on either side of the Atlantic, the "family tree" is more like a "family web".

Despite the "bogus" tag, the guys who Clifford Davies (Adams) sent out on the road as Fleetwood Mac, COULD "play", they weren't slouches on their instruments. The pervailing perception is that the "bogus" Fleetwood Mac weren't good musicians...they were...basically, they were duped by their manager (Davies/Adams) into believing that Mick &/or Christine would join up with them at some point. Once they found out about the reality of the situation, they didn't want to carry on, either. It was just too bad the dastardly ethical character of Clifford Davies (Adams) led other musicians astray.

greenfire · #7 11-10-2003, 08:41 PM

chiliD....WOW !!!...that was more than I bargained for! You would be great as a Fleetwood Mac archivist...but seriously, many thanks again for the info! I didn't realize that Peter Green was also in the...Looners with Mick... I hav'nt heard the Show Biz Blues release and probably will not get around to that one, but sounds interesting.

I did notice that Bardens had a few solo albums even before Camel...'The Answer' ..1970 & 'Write My Name In Dust'...1971 but maybe he made those while in the band...not sure?? The first Camel cd I've noticed is 'On The Road'...1972.

Interesting...of the two vinyl albums I have, one is Robert Plants 'Principle of Moments'. Looking at it...it has a picture of each member of the band on the sleeve and there he is, Paul Martinez. Also, checked APP 'Turn of the Friendly Card' cd and Elmer Gantry sings the first song, "May Be A Price To Pay". Great!!!...All along, I had two members of the"bogus" band within my very small music collection!

"The Earth is good, why do we abuse it?"....Ray Thomas

wetcamelfood · #8 11-13-2003, 05:07 PM

If you wanna get involved in helping us create a good FM family tree, check out this thread and join in:

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showth...ghlight=ashkan

It's actually DAVE Wilkinson (not John). He was interviewed in the 1995 UK BBC TV FM documentary "Rock family trees". He had also played in Chicken Shack for a short time (as had Martinez for Cat Stevens). Collinge was in Manfred Mann's Chapter Three (Manfred's pre Earth Band outfit) though I think he may have only played on "Volume two" (not the first selftitled MMCT album).

Another Robert Plant tie in here: Plant had done a tour a few years back where he & his band had dug out some of their obscure but favorite songs they came across over the years and one of the songs played was a song from the EG album called "Elmer Gantry's Velvet opera" from 1968.

(I can't remember the name of the song now but if I do, I'll post it here)

Kirby: Yeah, I'm sure Clifford got Kirby in to play on DK's "Hello there big boy" album on his own since he was managing DK's solo career at that time and according to Clifford, Danny was so far out of it by that time that he didn't even care about the album (so I'd guess from that, that Kirwan had no feelings one way or the other about Kirby playing on the album, if Davis is to be believed that is of course). Who knows though, like ChiliD says, it must be admitted that the bogus band players were good musicians, I think Kirby plays a very good guitar solo on "Only you" from HTBB personally.

I think it was the first THREE songs on disc one of the FM "Show biz blues" CD that were Peter B's recordings. Of course there was their one and only single on Columbia in the UK as well, "If you wanna be happy" b/w "Jodrell blues". The former differs to the version of IYWBH that appears on SBB (my bet is that those 3 Peter B's recordings on SBB are BBC recordings but that is just my guess, no proof here

). The latter has a PG guitar solo halfway in that shows his early Clapton influence well. I can't remember if anyone mentioned this in the posts above or not but just in case: They were originally known as Peter B's Looners but by the time they recorded the single, the name had been shortened to the Peter B's (Peter B's is what shows on the label from the one single).

Yeah, those 2 early Bardens solo albums: "The answer" includes Peter Green uncredited on every song on wah wah guitar. "Homage to the god of light" (a song from that album) was a track that Camel did end up doing in their early live sets (as you'll notice if you check out some of the tracklistings of the early live Camel recordings for sale at www.camelproductions.com as "God of light..." is the title of one of the early live sets (along with the "On the road.." one mentioned above) for sale there). I've never heard the "Write my name in the dust" album but I'd love to someday. I understand it was also issued somewhere as a selftitled album and in 1976 a PB album called "Vintage '69" was released which was basically "The answer" minus "Let's get it on". The space left by the absence of that track allowed them to include the song called "Write my name in the dust" (which I loved when I had heard on that album and loved before I "upgraded" to "The answer" CD when released on disc about ten years ago or so and I therefore then sold my "Vintage '69" vinyl album). Anyways, I'd love to hear the rest of that 2nd solo album if the greatness of WMNITD is anything to go by.

"The art of levitation" is a good album as well. "Spirit of the water" is much better here than it was on Camel's "Moonmadness" album originally (though Universal in the UK have just reissued that album (and many of the other early Bardens era Camel platters for that matter which I'd recommend)with bonus tracks and one of them was a beautiful piano instrumental demo of SOTW which matches up very well with the Tallulah Bardens sung TAOL version.

Elmer Gantry was also on the APP album "Eye in the sky" (in addition to TOAFC).

Well, I hope some of this was of some interest to someone here anyways.

John

chiliD · #9 11-13-2003, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wetcamelfood
Tallulah Bardens

Same "Tallulah" who sings "Oh Daddy" on the Legacy: Tribute To Rumours album??

wetcamelfood · #10 11-13-2003, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chiliD
Same "Tallulah" who sings "Oh Daddy" on the Legacy: Tribute To Rumours album??

Well, I haven't heard Legacy's "Oh daddy" but I'd assume so since he was Exec. producer of that album and she was going to be on Mick's "Tall man Records" (and like many of Mick's other business ventures...we're still waiting for

) according to that online BBC Q&A Mick had about this time a year ago someone gave the link to here at the time.

John

greenfire · #11 11-13-2003, 09:07 PM

John, Yes it was of interest and I hope it was to others as well. Like you mentioned, I also noticed the Elmer Gantry credit on APP's Eye in the Sky. He sings the song, "Psychobabble" from that one. He has a strong forceful singing voice on the two APP songs he did. I imagine he might have sounded good singing some of the Peter Green FM tunes.

Camel is sort of unfamiliar territiory for me. A friend had recorded some samples for me from Mirage, Snow Goose and Moonmadness. I've also heard a couple of their albums, specifically Rain Dances and A Nod & A Wink. Looking, yes, "Spirit of the Water" is one of the samples I have... Listening to it now, nice flute and keyboard parts and some murky style vocals...the song has a beautiful flow about it...I do like it!

I don't have a clue what Barden's sounded like solo. The comment from his AMG biography states, "His solo instrumental music is catchy and well-produced, yet rarely ventures beyond the tenets of pop music and tends to suffer as a result." Their broad interpretation of his music. I'm not quite sure what they are implying with this remark? How would you describe The Art of Levitation? Is it a purely instrumental album? I'm not even sure if Barden's sings or not? I noticed the last Camel album from 2002 A Nod & A Wink was dedicated to him by Andy Latimer, his former bandmate and co-founder of Camel.

"The Earth is good, why do we abuse it?"....Ray Thomas

wetcamelfood · #12 11-13-2003, 09:39 PM

Oops, sorry, I only saw your comment for EG's work on APP's "Turn of a friendly card", missed you knew about his EITS appearance.

I guess if you like the mini moog sound of Manfred Mann (but perhaps less rocking) then you will like Camel (at least the Bardens era Camel).

The SOTW you speak of there (w/flutes etc.), I personally think is the poorest of the 3 versions I spoke of above so I think you'll like the other 2 (the piano demo instrumental one on the remastered camel "Moonmadness" CD and the "Art of levitation" one).

I don't think many would doubt that "Lady fantasy" from "Mirage" was their peak and as far as I know it has remained their encore song since 1974, and rightfully so.

"The snow goose" album I guess was their crowning acheivement as a whole but it really was odd for them to do a "concept" album like that as most of their other work has been of the separate song variety (therefore, perhaps not really being a fair representation as to what they were like on a daily basis so to speak though it is a beautiful piece on it's own merits).

A 2 CD set released a few years back in the UK called "Echoes" I felt was a good compilation of their London/Deram work (the bulk of their catalog to date) though I'd imagine that one may have been deleted now with this Universal UK remstering of their back catalog going on. I think a 2 CD comp called "Lunar sea" has been released which I'd guess would be a safe bet for a starting point in Camel investigations, though I have yet to find a tracklisting for it so I can't say for sure on that one really.

Have a look at my album review for "The art of levitation" (rather than having me re-write it all) here:

http://www.fleetwoodmac.net/cgi-bin/...t-sku=theartof

I'm hardly an expert at Bardens solo work either but I'd say that early solo stuff was house style funk with PG's guitar on "The answer" tracks reminding one of his "The end of the game" axe howls (though obviously held more in bounds than he was on TEOTG), though the long jams on "The answer" do have a nice looseness to them. I have no idea what his 1979 solo album sounds like. His solo stuff from 1987 onwards has been chucked in to the "new age" field though it does have light pop leanings (a la "Avalon" era Roxy Music, with more breathy chants than actual traditional vocal sections). Some albums have more instrumentals than others but they are fairly straight ahead affairs. You're better off checking out some Camel instrumentals to hear Bardens let loose in any real sense though there are many tracks on the later solo albums that have a moody impressive smoothness though "The art of levitation" has a more world music feel, which may have been influenced by Mick's busy percussion appearing on all tracks.

Glad it was of some help anyways.

John

greenfire · #13 11-14-2003, 05:35 PM

John, You did see it right! I did'nt mention APP's Eye in the Sky at first. I did'nt bother checking that one for Elmer Gantry until you mentioned it. They have different singers from album to album. The ones that have the most name recognition for me upon hearing are Eric Woolfson and Lenny Zakatek and maybe Chris Rainbow. I had to look through the 'Eye in the Sky' insert to see which track EG did....after all this, I will have name recognition with him as well.

I did'nt think to look for 'The Art of Levitation' review at Fleetwoodmac.net...really glad you mentioned it. It's so hard guess about an album without really hearing it but a review is helpful. I do like the version of SOTW from 'Moonmadness'. I know you like it the least of the three versions, but it's hard for me to believe this version could be topped...but I do'nt know the others. Latimer is'nt renowned for his vocals, but as a great guitarest, but I do really like his vocals here. The set of Camel songs I have are "Nimrodel", "Rhayadar"(live) and "SOTW". This grouping sounds great in succession. They create a mysterious atmosphere that really draws me in. The moody and mellow passages contrasted by a sonic boom of some fast furious playing. However, I do tend to like the mellow side of the equation. FM's "Coming Home" might come closest in trying to describe these songs, but maybe that is'nt a good or fair comparison? It is hard to say how many Mac fans would like Camel?

I did hear 'Raindances' (1977). I think it was Barden's last album with Camel. It was'nt quite what I was looking for but I do remember "Highways of the Sun" being a catchy song.

note(edit)--I stand corrected, 'Breathless' (1978) was the last official Camel album with Barden's with guest spot on later album!

2nd note(edit/11/1903)--APP's 'Eye in the Sky' 3rd track is titled "Children of the Moon", a wonderful song OMHO, but it when I see the title it always reminds me of FM's "Sister's of the Moon".
"The Earth is good, why do we abuse it?"....Ray Thomas

wetcamelfood · #14 11-14-2003, 09:45 PM

Well, I understand that though Latimer usually did Camel's lead vocals, but that's actually Bardens on lead vocals on the "Moonmadness" SOTW. You may very well end up liking that version best anyways, that one being my least fave is JMHO after all.

Yeah, "Raindances", though passable, is really when it started to fall apart (though I think "Breathless" was after this and he was on that one and "A live record" culled from that "Raindances" tour (& "The snow goose" part of the set was from that one) was well done).

I think PB got out at the right time. I've heard about how he had musical differences with Latimer as being the reason as to why they parted ways but I have yet to find out what their individual paths were (to be able to ascertain which one wanted to go in which direction). Perhaps that was the old overused media tale to get them to stop them from hounding them as to the reasons behind why he left the band? Though Bardens did leave the band at that time, he did guest on "Sasquatch" from 1982's "The single factor" Camel album.

I guess "Coming home" is close in the sort of jazzy feel that Camel touched on during that period of Bardens era Camel but you have a point that as "Coming home" is pretty different for the Mac that Camel may only be enjoyed by some Mac fans. I think any Mac fan that listens to non BN era Mac is one who is open to listening to different kinds of music and that would give them an edge on maybe liking at least some of their stuff.

Even those that only like certain eras of the Mac may enjoy Camel's more melodic tracks as you state and the more restrained soloing sections may translate well along the lines of being considered as a more sophiscated, high brow level of playing which fans of craftsman like Lindsey or Danny may appreciate in the less jazzy moments. Bardens could be flashy with some of his keyboard swirls but it came across to me as a low key flash (which is a good thing I mean).

John

greenfire · #15 11-14-2003, 11:31 PM

I can't be sure of the other versions of "SOTW" but I take your word that they are great recordings. I just happen to be really impressed with the one I have from 'Moonmadness'. You talked about the reasoning for Bardens departure, I happened to read Latimers thoughts on Barden's leaving Camel, from the Camel site Skylines:

"Andrew Latimer explains: Peter and I always get on well when creating, but the problems started when we came to the actual execution of the ideas. In the studio, Peter and I were just stifling each other. I wouldn't let him get any of his ideas out and he wouldn't let me get any of mine out, so it became pretty heavy going. We mutually agreed to part company on the creative level. Richard and Andy wanted to stay with me, so Peter went. I think it was a very good move for both of us."

I thought I had read that Camel was shooting for a more radio friendly sound that might expand their fan base or make them more recognizable, maybe through a song like "Highways of the Sun". I don't know if they really succeeded but did notice that the albums immediately after Barden's leaving have some good reviews on the AMG site. I'm not sure what Barden's wanted to do with the band or how he conflicted? I would guess that might be answered looking at his work following Camel.

Sorry, FM fans if I have taken this thread down the wrong path for you!