Got Penguin and Heroes at Best Buy 2day!

[EricBliss12345]

I've never been able to find these CD's anywhere. They must have just ordered them because they weren't there two weeks ago.

I've only given Penguin a complete run-through, and I like what I heard but need to hear it a few more times. Of course I like Chris's songs best and Bob's I only listened to in passing, so I'm gonna put it on again. "Dissatisfied" is a great song, even though it's basically the first version of "Never Forget."

Heroes I've only heard the first two songs. Coming Home is pretty wild! It's a cool as **** change of pace to hear the Mac playing such trippy, proggy stuff.

Time to get listening, I'll review later.

[macfan 57]

I think Christine's songs on Penguin are fantastic. She was really on a roll at this time. Bob Weston's instrumental is also excellent. I'm not too fond of the rest of the album, especially Dave Walker's songs, which I think seem out of place.

I think Heroes Are Hard To Find is the most underrated Fleetwood Mac album. It may sound like a broken record, but Christine's songs are once again terrific here. I also really like most of Bob's songs here too, especially "She's Changing Me", "Silver Heels" & "Bermuda Triangle". I think it's a great album to listen to.

Honestly, I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't give these pre Buckingham/Nicks albums a try. They don't know what they're missing.

[EricBliss12345]

Yeah it's always Chris's songs that I like the best on the Welch period stuff. Morning Rain, Just Crazy Love, Why, Come A Little Bit Closer, etc. After hearing her older stuff it makes you wonder if she was past her peak by the time they had some commercial success. Or maybe I'm just completely sick and tired of "Don't Stop."

I think that's why I like "Temporary One" from the Dance so much. It's really in the vein of her older stuff and could have fit in well with any of those older albums.

And yeah, Dave Walker's tunes are kind of out of place, but they aren't BAD. I was thinking they were going to be these real god-awful songs, and while nothing spectacular they aren't harsh on the ears or anything. He's really creepy looking!

Penguin just seems to be one of those albums, it's pleasant to listen to but there's nothing on it that's really spectacular. It's good music to barbeque and have a couple beers to.

And I agree that "She's Changing Me" is great, and one of the best on the album. And I love the chaotic nonsense of "Coming Home." I didn't even realize there was singing on it until I heard it the third time!

When I brought these home my dad was like "Holy ****, i forgot all about Penguin! There's some good ones on here." He was one of those people that followed the Welch era as that stuff came out and actually has two vinyl copies of Mystery To Me.
Yet his copy of Tusk he bought when it came out and it's in mint condition. He hates it! I brought that home and he said "Oh you're gonna regret that purchase." Yet he got all sentimental over Penguin. Interesting.

[chiliD]

I don't mind "The Derelict" at all (took me about 15 years to get used to it, though), but "Roadrunner"... a good song when Jr Walker & The All-Stars recorded it, but it is NOT a Fleetwood Mac song. Motown just doesn't suit Fleetwood Mac at all. Maybe if Dave had recorded it when he was still in Savoy Brown (their version of the Temptations' "Can't Get Next To You" rivals the original), it might've come off better. The rest of the album is great, I think...just set the table for what was coming next with Mystery To Me...it is just a wonder how they could do TWO ALBUMS IN THE SAME YEAR, where now it's a miracle if we get two albums in the same decade!!

The Penguin album just seem really short (time wise). NOW when I put it on, it seems like it's about as long as a CD single with bonus tracks.

I love all of Welch's stuff on BOTH albums...I think I have a soft-spot for the Heroes Are Hard To Find album because that's the album they were promoting when I FINALLY got to see them in concert for the first time.

[EricBliss12345]

Eh, Roadrunner ain't bad. Yeah, it doesn't really sound like Fleetwood Mac but the song itself sounds decent.

From listening to Penguin I really don't see how it's gotten a bad rap. I'm not a hardcore Fleetwood Mac fan by any stretch but I haven't found anything about it I dislike. Although it lacks some of the grand tracks that graced the Future Games album overall I think its the more consistantly pleasing.

I think "Prove Your Love" is my favorite track of the moment. That and the insanely catchy "Dissatisfied." Still haven't absorbed both albums enough to really make an educated opinion on them as whole entities though.

That must have been cool to see them way back then. My dad also saw them around 72-73 and remembered them being really good. He described them as a young band just having fun, and he actually prefers that more fun, loose material to the polished pop of the Buckingham/Nicks era. I guess I do too, as I bought most of the Welch era albums BEFORE the Nicks ones. Hell, my first FM album was Bare Trees and I don't think anybody starts with that one.

[macfan 57]

Originally posted by EricBliss12345
Yeah it's always Chris's songs that I like the best on the Welch period stuff. Morning Rain, Just Crazy Love, Why, Come A Little Bit Closer, etc. After hearing her older stuff it makes you wonder if she was past her peak by the time they had some commercial success. Or maybe I'm just completely sick and tired of "Don't Stop."

I think that's why I like "Temporary One" from the Dance so much. It's really in the vein of her older stuff and could have fit in well with any of those older albums.

I don't think Chris necessarily hit her peak at this time. It's not like she went into a slump after Buckingham/Nicks joined. It's just that songs like "Don't Stop", "Hold Me" & "Little Lies" were such huge hits. You've probably heard them lots & lots
of times. I still think they're terrific songs. Unfortunately, not very many people know that her 1971-1974 stuff even exists.

[EricBliss12345]

Yeah I guess you have a good point there. It's not like she didn't follow that stuff with Say You Love Me, Warm Ways (has grown on me lots), You Make Lovin' Fun, Hold Me, Think About Me, etc.

It just amazes me that the woman has never changed her style and still makes such good use of the same formula.

Take, for instance, her song titles:

You Make Lovin' Fun
Just Crazy Love
Prove Your Love
Say You Love Me
Love In Store etc.

And I can never remember thinking to myself "Boy, this little schtick of hers is getting old." She's like, the AC/DC of chick rock.

[ShamHy89]

I don't think it ends just with "love" in her titles. Maybe it's just me, but I hear quite a bit of "lifting me up" "bringing me down" (Love In Store, I've Got a Love) and she seems to like the sun in her lyrics too. (Songbird, Spare Me a Little of Your Love). Even if it is redundant, they're still great songs.

Shamus

[EricBliss12345]

Same with Jon Anderson. His whole mountains/river/sea/heart schtick only just recently started getting irritating when Yes started making sub-par albums. He's been doing that for years now, and unlike Christine, we get to hear him on EVERY song of EVERY Yes album. I could listen to him sing Charlottes Web though and still love it.

After hearing them a few times, I've come to the conclusion that neither album is spectacular, but both have their merits. Heroes actually is good enough and the far superior one of the two and contains a fair share of tracks I like, mainly all of Christines (I LOVE Prove Your Love, and Heroes and Come a Little Bit Closer about equally) and She's Changing Me may very well be Bob's catchiest tune he wrote with the band, which has stellar vocal harmonies. I also like the psychedelic Coming Home quite a bit too, along with Born Enchanter and Silver Heels. Hell, Angel is cool too. I'd say it's a 3 1/2 star album. There's nothing on it I dislike and I can see it growing on me.

Penguin, the more I hear it, the more "off" it sounds. It's been said many times and I have to agree that Dave Walker was totally unnecessary. Does he even ever sing any backup vocals or just his two songs? I dont hear him on the rest of the CD. So they get this guy, and the best contribution he brings to the band is a cover tune? What a waste of flesh! The Derelict isn't that bad but it's nothing that warrents having the extra member to pay. Plus, he's really ugly. Not that that is important or anything, but it's just one more thing.

I love all of Christines songs here, especially Dissatisfied and the carribean Did You Ever Love Me. That song makes me want to hang on the beach with a pina colada, nice vibe. Bob's Night Watch is also pretty cool, and the mellotron was used to much better effect on this track than the aimless mellotron noodlings of The Ghost. I wonder if that was Christine playing it. Either way I always find myself wanting to hear more mellotron on the older Mac stuff, especially on the dreamy instrumental stuff like Sunny Side Of Heaven and on some of the ballads.

Glad I have Penguin for the few songs on it I do like, but I could never see myself putting it in and not skipping anything.

[chiliD]

Don't forget...Peter Green plays on the end of "Night Watch".

[EricBliss12345]

What DOESN'T Peter Green play on the end of?

[wetcamelfood]

In Walker's defense though, Weston said at his Q & A here that "The derelict" was actually unfinished (but the powers that be in FM obviously just stuck it on the album as was anyways deciding in essence that it was done and this ties in with Walker not really being allowed to be himself musically while in the band (which is the key to the whole thing as far as I see it anyways).

Though Dave admitted at HIS Q & A here that it was a bad time for him personally (with his drinking etc.) which can't have helped matters, he did say at the Q & A that he wasn't really given the chance to do what he wanted musically in FM.

Regardless of Welch's recent kissing up to Mick now etc. this stuff DID go on with the "small people" in FM over the years, whether it is now to be glossed over or not.

I'm not saying Dave Walker was a perfect fit in FM or anything, I'm just saying that what he wanted to do musically (from what I understand anyways) was/is a lot closer to what FM's "style" is/was than many seem to have decided his style is/was.

It is these things that make me want to believe that FM was as open minded musically as they seem to want us to believe about them but I guess this really wasn't the case (unfortunately).

Just some points to consider is all.

John

[macfan 57]

Originally posted by wetcamelfood

Regardless of Welch's recent kissing up to Mick now etc. this stuff DID go on with the "small people" in FM over the years, whether it is now to be glossed over or not.

John

Ah, I wondered if I was the only person who noticed this. This is a bit off topic in this thread, but Bob's Q & A's almost sound like they are with 2 different people.

I also agree with Eric about Dave Walker. He just seems out of place in Fleetwood Mac. It's certainly not his fault, though. It just seemed to me that the rest of the band just didn't know what to do with him. I just don't think he fits in well with Bob & Christine. Regardless, I don't think he was treated very well by the band. He quit his current band to join Fleetwood Mac and then he got fired from Fleetwood Mac soon thereafter. Not very nice in my opinion.

[chiliD]

I gotta do more research, but I don't think Dave left Savoy Brown on his own terms.

[wetcamelfood]

According to Brunning's books (Bruns interviewed DW in 1989) Dave said that he "heard from someone that was in the know that he was going to be replaced (in SB)". Still though, I agree with Macfan57 that it really was not very nice of FM to do that to Walker. Unless it comes out otherwise soon, I'll still believe that he left Savoy (at the height of their popularity too I might add) to join FM (as I recall Walker saying in the Brunning books that he thought/was led to believe that FM "wanted to get more rock and roll-ish at the time" (but of course was wrong about that).

I mean, if you were Walker, what else would you think if they were touring on the same bill and they invite you in? Naturally you're going to assume they want you to bring some input of what you do in to the ranks. I don't see why FM didn't even think of this as a possibility with him (or any of the other "shut out" Mac members, without opening more cans of worms).

I'm sure the Mac members wouldn't have liked it if that had been done to them. Even us, imagine if you were climing the executive ranks of a company but you heard that office politics were suggesting you might be transferred/laid off (nothing concrete mind you, but you needed a job to put food on the table obviously) so you left and joined another firm where some friends of yours got you in the door and they knew how you worked etc. Then you were told that the way you work needed to be changed (I don't know, say, they took you out of the office and put you in to an assembly line job at one of their plants, which physically you could do, but it just wasn't the work you were used to doing and it's not where your best skills were) and then a few short months later gave you your pink slip and said "oh sorry, it's just not working out how we thought it would with you so see ya later" and you watched your old job being taken and see your successors climb up above where you were in the organizational structure of your original employer on your way to the unemployment office. That'd kinda suck wouldn't it?

JMHO though.

John