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  #1  
Old 01-07-2004, 02:13 PM
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Default Tonight - Bill O v. Bill M

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,96207,00.html

Bill O'Reilly and Bill Maher square off tonight !!!!!!!
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Old 01-07-2004, 04:02 PM
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It will be entertaining to say the least!

Rob
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"(Sept. 11) was a big thing for me. I was saying to liberal America, "Well, what are you offering?" And they said, "Well, we're not going to protect you, and we want some more money." That didn't interest me."
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Old 01-07-2004, 04:19 PM
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I can't wait. My money is on Maher. O'Reilly doesn't have a sense of humor, especially about himself. The question is, will he shut up long enough to let Maher talk?
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Old 01-07-2004, 05:17 PM
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This will be one fantastic shouting match.

Like Goldie said, O'Reilly has no sense of humor whatsoever. He's a serious stiff that wouldn't know humor if it flew up and bit him in his self-satisfied ass.
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Old 01-07-2004, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by gldstwmn
I can't wait. My money is on Maher. O'Reilly doesn't have a sense of humor, especially about himself. The question is, will he shut up long enough to let Maher talk?
Heck no. That's a part of the show!

Seriously, I saw Maher's standup routine recently...the latest one on HBO. It was pretty funny. He made some really good points on some social issues but the guy is out in left field on foriegn policy.

I heard Ron Silver, the actor, rip him to shreds on a talk show recently. That was probably the only time I have ever seen someone completely rationalize with Maher to the point that he had nothing to say. I wish I had the transcript.

Rob
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"If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart, and if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no head."
- Winston Churchill

"The biggest conspiracy has always been the fact that there is no conspiracy. Nobody's out to get you. Nobody gives a sh*t whether you live or die. There, you feel better now? "

"(Sept. 11) was a big thing for me. I was saying to liberal America, "Well, what are you offering?" And they said, "Well, we're not going to protect you, and we want some more money." That didn't interest me."
- Dennis Miller
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Old 01-07-2004, 08:27 PM
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Was that Billy O. congratulating the ACLU on their gay rights victory in a high school gay hazing negligence case. I gotta give it to him, he usually hates the ACLU but called a spade a spade in this instance.
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Old 01-07-2004, 08:58 PM
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I think the Bills went out drinkin afterward.

I have to agree with Bill O. though. You can say W went into the National Guard and trash his record there and you can question his motives for doing so. But, the National Guard was a legitimate alternative to the draft. Conversely and to me, the term "draft dodger" implies if not states that someone did something "bad" to avoid the draft. So, while the National Guard may have not been the be all and end all, W certainly was not a "draft dodger" using the def. above.

Does anyone know know why everyone did not apply for the National Guard? I mean if it guaranteed not going to Vietnam . . .
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Old 01-07-2004, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by strandinthewind
I think the Bills went out drinkin afterward.

I have to agree with Bill O. though. You can say W went into the National Guard and trash his record there and you can question his motives for doing so. But, the National Guard was a legitimate alternative to the draft. Conversely and to me, the term "draft dodger" implies if not states that someone did something "bad" to avoid the draft. So, while the National Guard may have not been the be all and end all, W certainly was not a "draft dodger" using the def. above.

Except that he was AWOL the whole friggin' time.
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Old 01-08-2004, 12:35 AM
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Originally posted by gldstwmn
Except that he was AWOL the whole friggin' time.
I read an interview with a rep from the Guard that knew Bush back then. He said that Bush was never AWOL and that everything he did was fine under NG law....I'll have to dig up the link....

I think that's just a claim of the Bush Haters....

Rob
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"If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart, and if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no head."
- Winston Churchill

"The biggest conspiracy has always been the fact that there is no conspiracy. Nobody's out to get you. Nobody gives a sh*t whether you live or die. There, you feel better now? "

"(Sept. 11) was a big thing for me. I was saying to liberal America, "Well, what are you offering?" And they said, "Well, we're not going to protect you, and we want some more money." That didn't interest me."
- Dennis Miller
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Old 01-08-2004, 12:43 AM
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http://awol.gq.nu/AWOL_Globe%20series.htm

1-year gap in Bush's Guard duty

No record of airman at drills from 1972-73

"But both accounts are contradicted by copies of Bush's military records, obtained by the Globe. In his final 18 months of military service in 1972 and 1973, Bush did not fly at all. And for much of that time, Bush was all but unaccounted for: For a full year, there is no record that he showed up for the periodic drills required of part-time guardsmen."
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Old 01-08-2004, 12:51 AM
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Originally posted by gldstwmn
http://awol.gq.nu/AWOL_Globe%20series.htm

1-year gap in Bush's Guard duty

No record of airman at drills from 1972-73

"But both accounts are contradicted by copies of Bush's military records, obtained by the Globe. In his final 18 months of military service in 1972 and 1973, Bush did not fly at all. And for much of that time, Bush was all but unaccounted for: For a full year, there is no record that he showed up for the periodic drills required of part-time guardsmen."
But later reporting proved Bush wasn't AWOL. National Guard Magazine said it best in its Jan. 2001 edition:

Bush also was accused of skirting the draft by joining the Texas Air Guard in 1968. He became an F-102 fighter pilot before being discharged as a first lieutenant in 1973. [Former National Guard Bureau historian retired Col. Michael] Doubler says it is unfair to criticize those who joined the Guard during the Vietnam War. "The government allowed it and in many ways encouraged it," he said "There were a lot of things the government did to authorize people to serve in places other than the front lines."

Bush's drill performance also stirred controversy during the campaign. Some reports charged that he was absent for a year. However, probably the most comprehensive media review of Bush's military records concluded that while he, "served irregularly after the spring of 1972 and got an expedited discharge, he did accumulate the days of service required for him for his ultimate honorable discharge." The review was done by Georgemag.com, the online version of the magazine founded by the late John F. Kennedy Jr.

Guardsmen say Bush's service record is not unusual. "In any six-year time frame you probably can find some problems," says retired Rep. G.V. 'Sonny' Montgomery, D-Miss., founder of the House Guard and Reserve Caucus. "Just learning to fly the F-102 and not getting hurt and not hurting anybody is an accomplishment." Montgomery called Bush's election, "nothing but a plus for the Guard."


The New York Times also looked into the charge and found it lacked substance:

Two Democratic senators today called on Gov. George W. Bush to release his full military record to resolve doubts raised by a newspaper about whether he reported for required drills when he was in the Air National Guard in 1972 and 1973. But a review of records by The New York Times indicated that some of those concerns may be unfounded. The Times examined the record in response to a previous Boston Globe story.

Documents reviewed by The Times showed that Mr. Bush served in at least 9 of the 17 months in question... On Sept. 5, 1972, Mr. Bush asked his Texas Air National Guard superiors for assignment to the 187th Tactical Recon Group in Montgomery "for the months of September, October and November." Capt. Kenneth K. Lott, chief of the personnel branch of the 187th Tactical Recon Group, told the Texas commanders that training in September had already occurred but that more training was scheduled for Oct. 7 and 8 and Nov. 4 and 5. But Mr. Bartlett said Mr. Bush did not serve on those dates because he was involved in the Senate campaign, but he made up those dates later.

Colonel Turnipseed, who retired as a general, said in an interview that regulations allowed Guard members to miss duty as long as it was made up within the same quarter. Mr. Bartlett pointed to a document in Mr. Bush's military records that showed credit for four days of duty ending Nov. 29 and for eight days ending Dec. 14, 1972, and, after he moved back to Houston, on dates in January, April and May. The May dates correlated with orders sent to Mr. Bush at his Houston apartment on April 23, 1973, in which Sgt. Billy B. Lamar told Mr. Bush to report for active duty on May 1-3 and May 8-10. Another document showed that Mr. Bush served at various times from May 29, 1973, through July 30, 1973, a period of time questioned by The Globe.


Even the Boston Globe's story admits Bush served more than the minimum time, and was a fine pilot:

Those who trained and flew with Bush, until he gave up flying in April 1972, said he was among the best pilots in the 111th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron. In the 22-month period between the end of his flight training and his move to Alabama, Bush logged numerous hours of duty, well above the minimum requirements for so-called ''weekend warriors.''

Indeed, in the first four years of his six-year commitment, Bush spent the equivalent of 21 months on active duty, including 18 months in flight school. His Democratic opponent, Vice President Al Gore, who enlisted in the Army for two years and spent five months in Vietnam, logged only about a month more active service, since he won an early release from service.

Incidentally, Bush flew with the 111th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron, which was attached to the 147th Fighter Wing, based in Houston, Texas. While Bush's unit never got called to Vietnam, the 147th was. From 1968 through 1970, pilots from the 147th participated in operation "Palace Alert" and served in Southeast Asia during the height of the Vietnam War. The 147th came off runway alert on Jan. 1, 1970 to start a new mission of training all F-102 pilots in the United States for the Air National Guard.

Bush enlisted as an Airman Basic in the 147th Fighter-Interceptor Group at Ellington Air Force Base, Houston, on May 28, 1968 - at a time when the 147th was actively participating in combat in Vietnam. However, one can not train overnight to be a pilot. Bush completed basic flight training and then, from December 1969 through June 27, 1970, he was training full-time at Ellington to be an F-102 pilot.


Bush volunteered to serve in a unit at the very moment it was seeing combat in Vietnam, and only a restructuring of the unit's mission before he completed his flight training made it unlikely he would fly in combat. And he was never AWOL - he completed his required service and even served beyond the minimum.


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstrac...A80994D8404482


FYI....Rob
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"If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart, and if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no head."
- Winston Churchill

"The biggest conspiracy has always been the fact that there is no conspiracy. Nobody's out to get you. Nobody gives a sh*t whether you live or die. There, you feel better now? "

"(Sept. 11) was a big thing for me. I was saying to liberal America, "Well, what are you offering?" And they said, "Well, we're not going to protect you, and we want some more money." That didn't interest me."
- Dennis Miller
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  #12  
Old 01-08-2004, 01:13 AM
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Isn't it past your bedtime?

The articles you posted never said that Bush wasn't AWOL. In fact they alluded to the fact that he was. The New york Times only says:

"Democratic senators Daniel K Inouye and Bob Kerrey call on Gov George W Bush to release full military record to clear up doubts raised by Boston Globe about whether he reported for required drills while member of Air National Guard in 1972 and 1973; review by New York Times shows concerns may be unfounded; Bush spokesman says he fulfilled all military obligations or would not have received honorable discharge (M)"

More:
http://www.buzzflash.com/analysis/20..._Scrubbed.html

When Walter Robinson of the Boston Globe broke the story about the gap in the service record, dozens of Texas National Guardsmen broke ranks and reported information to the Austin American Statesman giving more details. The information to Dick Stanley never saw the light of day. An Associated Press writer had a story until she talked with Karen Hughes and the story died.

I was outside the Adjutant general of Texas office when I overheard a call from Joe Allbaugh and Dan Bartlett that told General James to "make sure there is nothing embarrassing in the Governor's file" in preparation for his reelection run and a run for the presidency. I was present when James and Asst AG General Marty told a state services employee to do the same. I was there when the retained records person surrendered files under order of COL William Goodwin, Chief of Staff, for the scrub of the Governor's files.

Even with all of these first hand accounts, no one dared to ask questions after they talked with Bartlett, Hughes, Rove or Allbaugh. Why?

James further shielded official public files from the press and otherwise ran interference for Bush, Hughes, Bartlett and Rove during the campaign --"obstructing" the judicial and public review of this record.

Last December 1, 2001, Bush nominated James to be the Director of the Air National Guard of the United States. As Director of the Air National Guard of the US, James will be responsible for the direct control of all airspace over the Continental United States and will be the first responsible Officer for managing the network which scrambles fighters in air hijacking or hostage situations. By Standard operating Procedure (SOP) a certain number of jets are on tactical alert at all times. This means that aircraft are airborne within ten minutes of a scramble for interception. Did anyone notice that it took up to ninety minutes to scramble National Guard intercept aircraft in this hijacking situation? Unheard of - especially since they were warned.

Last edited by gldstwmn; 01-08-2004 at 01:33 AM..
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Old 01-08-2004, 01:42 AM
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http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/...bushguard.cnn/

Bush dismisses report he skipped Air National Guard service

"Responding to the Globe's report that his Alabama base commander had no recollection of Bush ever showing for drills, the governor said "I pulled duty in Alabama and I read the comments and the guy said he didn't remember me. That's 27 years ago, but I remember being there."

Asked about his Air National Guard attendance record, Bush told reporters it was "spotty attendance but I did the duty necessary... I did the time that was required in the Guard."

http://archive.salon.com/politics200...0/05/24/guard/


Though Bush promised to continue his service while stationed in that state, there is no evidence that he ever showed up for Alabama Guard duty. "Had he reported in, I would have had some recall, and I do not," said retired Gen. William Turnipseed, who commanded the Alabama unit at the time Bush claims to have served. "I had been in Texas, done my flight training there. If we had a first lieutenant from Texas, I would have remembered."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...&notFound=true

Records of Bush's Ala. Military Duty Can't Be Found

"In May, retired Gen. William Turnipseed, the former commander of the Alabama Guard unit, said Bush did not report to him, although the young airman was required to do so. His orders, dated Sept. 15, 1972, said: "Lieutenant Bush should report to Lt. Col. William Turnipseed, DCO, to perform equivalent training."

This one's dated May 31, 2003

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0531-03.htm

"Mr. Bush learned to fly in the National Guard at a taxpayer expense of $1 million, then proceeded to become absent without leave — also known as AWOL — for which many service personnel have received jail sentences. Mr. Bush's official biography shows that he served as a pilot with the Texas Guard from 1968 to 1973. Mr. Bush did not go to Vietnam. According to Mr. Gallagher's and other published reports, Mr. Bush went to weekend meetings at the Fighter-Interceptor Squadron at Ellington Field in Houston from June 1970 until April 1972. Then a funny thing happened.

Mr. Bush went to Alabama to work on the U.S. Senate campaign of one of his father's friends. He continued serving in the National Guard, he says. That may be a lie. It wouldn't be his first and it certainly won't be his last. The records of the Montgomery unit he claims to have joined do not show that he ever served there. His annual effectiveness report, signed by two superiors, said he had not been observed at the unit to which he was assigned."

http://www.thenation.com/capitalgame...?bid=3&pid=633

"More curious, the records showed Bush had not reported for Guard duty during a long stretch of that period. Had the future commander-in-chief been AWOL?

In May 1972, with two years to go on his six-year commitment to the Guard, Bush moved to Alabama to work on a Senate campaign. He asked if he could do his Guard duty there. This son-of-a-congressman and fighter pilot won permission to do "equivalent training" at a unit that had no aircraft and no pilots. The national Air Reserve office then disallowed this transfer. For months, Bush did nothing for the Guard. In September 1972, he won permission to train with a unit in Montgomery. But the commander of the unit and his administrative officer told the Boston Globe that they had no recollection of Bush ever reporting for duty. And when Bush returned to Texas after the November election, he did not return to his unit for months, according to his military records. His annual performance report, dated May 2, 1973, noted he had "not been observed at this unit" for the past year. In May, June and July of that year, he did pull 36 days of duty."

How do you fly at a unit with no pilots and no planes?

Last edited by gldstwmn; 01-08-2004 at 01:50 AM..
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Old 01-08-2004, 08:25 AM
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Well, if he did the required time, what more could he do? I mean, he satisfied the National Guard's rules.

Also, I submit that becoming a F-102 fighter pilot required at least a minimum amount of training, which took a significant amount of time; also, becoming a F-102 fighter piolt belies the argument that W is an idiot. I mean it takes some smarts to operate that aircraft. So, although he cannot speak very well , he is not a complete and total idiot as come assert.

Note: I am not saying W did not get advantages from his family's status. I am just saying the NG was satisfied with his performance, so he was not AWOL as that term is defined, i.e., he had leave and fulfilled his duty according to their rules no matter what we may think of the way it was fulfilled.
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Old 01-08-2004, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by strandinthewind
Well, if he did the required time, what more could he do? I mean, he satisfied the National Guard's rules.

Also, I submit that becoming a F-102 fighter pilot required at least a minimum amount of training, which took a significant amount of time; also, becoming a F-102 fighter piolt belies the argument that W is an idiot. I mean it takes some smarts to operate that aircraft. So, although he cannot speak very well , he is not a complete and total idiot as come assert.

Note: I am not saying W did not get advantages from his family's status. I am just saying the NG was satisfied with his performance, so he was not AWOL as that term is defined, i.e., he had leave and fulfilled his duty according to their rules no matter what we may think of the way it was fulfilled.
Absolutely, but the nature of Bush-Hate (or any politician for that matter) means you have to dig through every single minute of the person’s entire life so you can find an inconsistency and go “AH-HAH! Look how bad he is!!!” Assumptions and allegations about events that happened 30 years ago are irrelevant to me judging a current situation. Besides, these same people who use this argument were defending Clinton for being a Rhodes Scholar, or whatever he was, during the war. It is all BS because there are few real issues they have to complain about.

Just my 2 cents…

Rob
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- Winston Churchill

"The biggest conspiracy has always been the fact that there is no conspiracy. Nobody's out to get you. Nobody gives a sh*t whether you live or die. There, you feel better now? "

"(Sept. 11) was a big thing for me. I was saying to liberal America, "Well, what are you offering?" And they said, "Well, we're not going to protect you, and we want some more money." That didn't interest me."
- Dennis Miller
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