Abortion

[DauphineMarie]

I also am regretfully joining in with this argument, but I just need to say a woman's choice to have an abortion should always be her choice. For any reason, regardless of her circle of influence, she should not have to feel like she's making the wrong decision. Because whether or not for selfish reasons, if she feels like she has to have an abortion, nobody should stop her. Denying someone that choice, in my opinion, is as damaging as denying a child a life. Because as many of you have pointed out, the amount of drugs and things happening at that time would not have ended well for her child, and as Stevie has said, she couldn't have been around enough to be a proper mother, like she would have wanted. I think when Stevie made the decision, it was for selfish reasons, but also for the health, safety, and well-being of her child. I think she realized that if she were to bring a child into the world, both she and her child could not have lived the lives they wanted to live. And as poetic as Stevie is, her music embodies that choice; her child is the "poet in her heart", that never changes and never stops, but is now gone. It doesn't matter what for, but when he builds that house, she's ready to move on with her life, but with her unborn child, a part of it.

Regardless of personal opinion, nothing is stronger than a mum's love, and though in a perfect world no child would have to be aborted, this is not a perfect world, and choices are made that will be regretted. And choices will be made that will be cherished forever. That choice, though, is not anyone's business, nor should it ever be.

[tabruns]

Originally Posted by olive

because it was her right to choose

Absolutely.

[tabruns]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

The "the right to lifers" always make me sick because I think they are about as deep as a raindrop.

This actually made me burst out laughing.

[gypsyhelena]

Originally Posted by Feather Blade

Sigh, I know I am going to regret getting involved in this argument, but how about a different viewpoint for once if we are so supportive of them all. The original poster merely asked what we thought was going on in Stevie's life at the time which would cause her to take the course of action she did. Cue the immediate vehement "her body her choice!" answer. Yes, it was her body, but I am tired of everyone pretending that making that choice isn't denying a lifetime's worth of choices to another human being who could have lived and loved and gifted the world with their own special qualities. If you have been in that situation, I know I haven't walked in your shoes, but can I humbly ask that we consider taking 9 tiny months of our general allotment of 912 of them over the average lifespan, to let another human being come into this world to be gifted to adoptive parents who are aching to give that little one a family and a home. There ARE other alternatives. (and to the person who said that everyone who wasn't supportive of killing children was about as deep as a raindrop, I hope I've shown more depth than that. If you still think not, then I'm sorry, but I'll "choose" to stick to my principles.)

Generally, pro-choice people respond 'vehemently' towards the anti-choice agenda because they find the idea of ignoring women's rights to bodily autonomy, and forcing them to use their bodies to carry a pregnancy and give birth against their will, to be cruel/preposterous/inhumane, because it's valuing the life of a fetus- a collection of cells with no brain activity- above the life of a person with likes and dislikes, hopes and dreams, friends and enemies- the life of a person WITH a life.

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by gypsyhelena

Generally, pro-choice people respond 'vehemently' towards the anti-choice agenda because they find the idea of ignoring women's rights to bodily autonomy, and forcing them to use their bodies to carry a pregnancy and give birth against their will, to be cruel/preposterous/inhumane, because it's valuing the life of a fetus- a collection of cells with no brain activity- above the life of a person with likes and dislikes, hopes and dreams, friends and enemies- the life of a person WITH a life.

Dido!!!!!!!!!

[secret love]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

Dido!!!!!!!!!

You Yanks puzzle me. Abortion is a controversial issue in Australia, though it is nowhere near as contentious here in Sydney as it is in the USA.

Our current Prime Minister Tony Abbott when he was Minister for Health in the Howard Coalition Government, once pronounced that, "Abortion is the easy way out." That led to former Prime Minister Julia Gillard unearthing that quote and using it against him in her Misogyny Speech ...saying that she was very personally offended by that statement he made.

My opinion on this is the same as that of Hillary Clinton and the Democrats in the USA, that abortion should be Safe, Legal and Rare.

I have a real problem however with young men and women using the pull-out method otherwise known as coitus interruptus and then requesting morning after pills over and over again.

That behaviour is irresponsible and that is not a valid method of contraception. If you do not want kids, I feel like telling these silly young women and their boyfriends - then please just take the contraceptive pill or put a condom on your prick!

Oh dear...

[gypsyhelena]

Originally Posted by secret love

You Yanks puzzle me. Abortion is a controversial issue in Australia, though it is nowhere near as contentious here in Sydney as it is in the USA.

Our current Prime Minister Tony Abbott when he was Minister for Health in the Howard Coalition Government, once pronounced that, "Abortion is the easy way out." That led to former Prime Minister Julia Gillard unearthing that quote and using it against him in her Misogyny Speech ...saying that she was very personally offended by that statement he made.

My opinion on this is the same as that of Hillary Clinton and the Democrats in the USA, that abortion should be Safe, Legal and Rare.

I have a real problem however with young men and women using the pull-out method otherwise known as coitus interruptus and then requesting morning after pills over and over again.

That behaviour is irresponsible and that is not a valid method of contraception. If you do not want kids, I feel like telling these silly young women and their boyfriends - then please just take the contraceptive pill or put a condom on your prick!

Oh dear...

Tony Abbott's awful. I'm a New Zealander, and our prime minister's a shallow grinning idiot who's more concerned with changing our flag and meeting Katy Perry than he is with combating issues such as child poverty, but we're still better off in the prime minister department than you Aussies are.

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by Feather Blade

Every single moment of every single day, civilized cultures deny people the "right" to kill other people. That's why we have laws against murder. This is NO different. Once the process has gone far enough that a fertilized egg has implanted and let the body know that there is now a viable pregnancy, nothing further needs to be done save the appropriate amount of growing time. At that point, you have a soul, you ARE a person. It doesn't take leaving the womb to become human. As far as the hope/dreams/friends/enemies argument goes, a 15 year old has more of those than a 10 yr old, a 10 yr old has more than a 5 yr old and a 5 yr old has more than a 1 yr old, that's just a product of experience. If I say that my life is more important than someone who has simply had less time to explore the world that's me saying some lives matter more than others and that's exactly the attitude that led to the Holocaust. If you aren't prepared to be a parent, then you don't have to be, there are lines of people waiting to adopt that child and give them the love, home and family that you for whatever reason aren't able to give. Just please, please, please, give some thought to giving just a few short months of time to let that precious little person have a chance to go enjoy all the things of this world that you get to enjoy because your parents thought that you were worth that. There are many, many organizations that help with the financial, physical and emotional support that someone might need to get through that period of time. Every single life is important and we are all able to even have this argument because our mothers thought that. I know that I can't be the only person who feels this way. Someone reading this right now is an adopted child who is thankful every day that they were given a chance, someone reading this is an adoptive parent who is grateful for a biological mother out there who gave of herself to see that the precious child they get to enjoy every day was saved, and someone out there who is reading this decided against the odds, against every instinct they had to not see it through, DID decide to stay the course and is grateful every single day of their lives for the cherished son or daughter that almost wasn't. I know that some of you are going to vilify me, and if that's the way it has to be, then so be it, it isn't about choice or lack of, it is about precious human lives and sometimes someone has to stand up for those that can't stand up for themselves. (Oh my...does anyone want to talk about music again?

Well how many adopted children wish they were never born? If life is such a gift how come soo many people are unhappy? Tit for tat - ****t for shatt

This discussion reminds of the movie Citizen Ruth - watch the absurdity.

[Feather Blade]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

Well how many adopted children wish they were never born? If life is such a gift how come soo many people are unhappy? Tit for tat - ****t for shatt

This discussion reminds of the movie Citizen Ruth - watch the absurdity.

Hmm, I'm guessing YOU are unhappy? (just teasing) When there is life, there is always the potential that things will get better. When there isn't, well, all the beautiful what ifs can never be. I really hesitated to weigh in on this discussion as I am no fan of confrontation, and when it comes to the anonymity of the internet, people really seem to say a lot of mean things to each other that they wouldn't ever say when having a reasoned discussion face to face. For whatever reason though, something told me to mention those organizations that can help you through those months until you can get to the point where you can pass your child to the parents who so desperately want it. So, if I gave even one person something to think about that could lead to a different outcome, then that's a good thing. Now...I think LouieLouie is right, and we should try and steer this discussion back to the original topic, which was what was going on in Stevie's life that influenced what happened. Since times have changed so much over the years, I wonder if it had happened to her now, if things would have been different. Women have been in the workforce so long that nobody is expected to have either a family or a career, but not both. She has many contemporary friends now who have shown that you can navigate that path. Oh, by the way, happy early New Year to everyone!

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by Feather Blade

Hmm, I'm guessing YOU are unhappy? (just teasing) When there is life, there is always the potential that things will get better. When there isn't, well, all the beautiful what ifs can never be. I really hesitated to weigh in on this discussion as I am no fan of confrontation, and when it comes to the anonymity of the internet, people really seem to say a lot of mean things to each other that they wouldn't ever say when having a reasoned discussion face to face. For whatever reason though, something told me to mention those organizations that can help you through those months until you can get to the point where you can pass your child to the parents who so desperately want it. So, if I gave even one person something to think about that could lead to a different outcome, then that's a good thing. Now...I think LouieLouie is right, and we should try and steer this discussion back to the original topic, which was what was going on in Stevie's life that influenced what happened. Since times have changed so much over the years, I wonder if it had happened to her now, if things would have been different. Women have been in the workforce so long that nobody is expected to have either a family or a career, but not both. She has many contemporary friends now who have shown that you can navigate that path. Oh, by the way, happy early New Year to everyone!

You keep wanting to move on after you have said your peace. How typical.

The bottom line is Stevie chose to have an abortion and she had the last word. Pretty smart lady. Very responsible decision making even if her previous behavior was reckless and irresponsible.

PS. This world is already overpopulated. It doesn't need more babies to carry on religious theologies. The End of Days is already here through overpopulation.

[Feather Blade]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

You keep wanting to move on after you have said your peace. How typical.

The bottom line is Stevie chose to have an abortion and she had the last word. Pretty smart lady. Very responsible decision making even if her previous behavior was reckless and irresponsible.

PS. This world is already overpopulated. It doesn't need more babies to carry on religious theologies. The End of Days is already here through overpopulation.

And this isn't you having to say your piece last?

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by Feather Blade

And this isn't you having to say your piece last?

I didn't write a book like you did.

[Feather Blade]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

I didn't write a book like you did.

I guess I don't really see what the length of the comments we made has to do with accusing me of having to have the last word by getting the last word yourself, but ok, whatever. I don't want to fight with you. I tried to steer the topic back to what the original poster wanted to talk about which was what one of the moderators suggested we do. I can't think of anything else to say on that subject at the moment apart from what I just said about the differences in the modern workforce and what that means regarding work and family, so someone else will have to step in I guess. I hope you have a nice day/night and that early happy New Year was for you too.

[becca]

My problem with Stevie if I'm allowed to have one is that she has been said to have had as many as seven abortions, and at least 'several' going by iron-clad legitimnate sources. Seven mistakes is a huge number for something like this. A misuse of abortion on that scale by someone who has he resources to do something else? That makes it bad for others, especially people still having to fight for a choice for mostly poor and far more resourceless women and victims of attack.

The would-have-been-fathers of some do seem to hold a grudge still because they were kept in the dark and/or allowed no voice, and they also had resources. As a human being I say the hell with any career in that case. It is something that has effected my enjoyment of her music at times, it might be better not to know but I do. Surely if you don't like the balance nature forces on us you could have gotten yourself surgically able to have sex without possibility of pregnancy after one or two mistakes.

This is a subject like Michael Jackson's 'special misunderstood love' for children that some just will never be able to be objective about, but that can be their willfulness. You've been in trouble, so why have an amusement park on your property and be alone numerous times in your bedroom with other peoples' kids? Why not get psychological help with all your money? You've been in trouble, so why keep taking chances when you can do something to avoid it happening again and again and insisting you are the only one to 'deal' with the result of your actions when you so obviously haven't shown any success or ability before? Look where Jackson ended up, unable to sleep at night without the most powerful sedative known! His fans were no help to him in that they just propped up his facade of innocence and of fathering three children like a normal man. I'd have respected someone coming out of the closet, but now these people are just going to abuse his so-called kids to keep making money from fanatics who say dumb things about them inheriting his talent. I don't think Stevie's fans are this extreme but they don't help her in excusing any and all behavior. I feel sorry for Jackson and recognize he paid the ultimate price, and I also feel sorry for Stevie. People do need to know that an abortion is an extreme solution with major consequences well beyond legalities. There is no fair. At best it is a lesser of evils situation to be made by those with direct knowledge, and someone abusing it's availability jeopardizes it for others.

[Jondalar]

Originally Posted by becca

My problem with Stevie if I'm allowed to have one is that she has been said to have had as many as seven abortions, and at least 'several' going by iron-clad legitimnate sources. Seven mistakes is a huge number for something like this. A misuse of abortion on that scale by someone who has he resources to do something else? That makes it bad for others, especially people still having to fight for a choice for mostly poor and far more resourceless women and victims of attack.

The would-have-been-fathers of some do seem to hold a grudge still because they were kept in the dark and/or allowed no voice, and they also had resources. As a human being I say the hell with any career in that case. It is something that has effected my enjoyment of her music at times, it might be better not to know but I do. Surely if you don't like the balance nature forces on us you could have gotten yourself surgically able to have sex without possibility of pregnancy after one or two mistakes.

This is a subject like Michael Jackson's 'special misunderstood love' for children that some just will never be able to be objective about, but that can be their willfulness. You've been in trouble, so why have an amusement park on your property and be alone numerous times in your bedroom with other peoples' kids? Why not get psychological help with all your money? You've been in trouble, so why keep taking chances when you can do something to avoid it happening again and again and insisting you are the only one to 'deal' with the result of your actions when you so obviously haven't shown any success or ability before? Look where Jackson ended up, unable to sleep at night without the most powerful sedative known! His fans were no help to him in that they just propped up his facade of innocence and of fathering three children like a normal man. I'd have respected someone coming out of the closet, but now these people are just going to abuse his so-called kids to keep making money from fanatics who say dumb things about them inheriting his talent. I don't think Stevie's fans are this extreme but they don't help her in excusing any and all behavior. I feel sorry for Jackson and recognize he paid the ultimate price, and I also feel sorry for Stevie. People do need to know that an abortion is an extreme solution with major consequences well beyond legalities. There is no fair. At best it is a lesser of evils situation to be made by those with direct knowledge, and someone abusing it's availability jeopardizes it for others.

Who said she had several abortions?