TITN: Stevie's Songs.

[David]

Originally Posted by wolfontherun

I think these are her weakest contributions to the band and often wondered what hapenned.

I think SEVEN WONDERS & WHEN I SEE YOU AGAIN are great tracks & pretty good songs (although Nicks didn't write the former). But WELCOME TO THE ROOM is a crappy track & perhaps an even crappier song.

Was it the drugs, was Lindsey too angry with her to help make her songs better, was she fed up with the Mac?

I'm not in the game of blithely ascribing drug use or emotional conflict to performance issues (other than maybe sexual performance). The annals of pop music are filled with examples of drugged-out songwriters writing great songs & other drugged-out songwriters writing awful songs. The same can be said about songwriters in emotional turmoil.

Furthermore, I think the oft-repeated idea that when Lindsey is "mad" at Stevie, he sabotages her songs by giving them bad arrangements is a loony idea with absolutely no direct evidence or even anecdotal evidence.

I have never really hated anything from Stevie Solo or with FM but Welcome is just so horribnle. No melody, no ispiration in her voice.

I agree with you. It sucks.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by David

Furthermore, I think the oft-repeated idea that when Lindsey is "mad" at Stevie, he sabotages her songs by giving them bad arrangements is a loony idea with absolutely no direct evidence or even anecdotal evidence.

Hey! What more anecdotal evidence do you need? Just think of the 50 Stevie songs that sound the worst and know that Lindsey is directly responsible for them.

"He could take my songs and do what I would do if I had musical talent. When he wasn't angry with me, that is. That's why there's seven or eight great songs, and there's 50 more where he wasn't happy with me and didn't help me."

[aleuzzi]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

I am still to this day baffled by the songs that ended up on Tango. Stevie had SO much good material that she could have used for that album. Why didn't Joan of Arc make the cut?? She also had quite a few good songs left from the Mirror, Mirror album which she shelved 2 years before.

For the record, I think Lindsey made some blunders with his songs too. Why didn't he use You and I pt 1? It was SO much better than pt 2. Make Me A Mask was another amazing song that should have made it on the record. Christine could have had Heart Of Stone included too. Tango has some great music, and is a great album as a whole... but it could have been so much better with some tweaking.

For the record, I do think When I See You Again is an artistic triumph for Stevie though. I think the way she sings the song absolutely and totally captures the utter heartache and devastation she's writing about. It may not be her prettiest vocal by far, but I think her vocal truly gets across what she's going through. I even like the line "and she stares at the stairs, there are so many things to stare at these days." To me, that line alone captures the devastation she's going through. We've all been that way after a particularly hard breakup before. I do have an issue with Welcome To The Room Sara though... the production is just too bubbly for the serious subject matter of the song.

I'm pretty sure neither Heart of Stone or Make Me a Mask were written when Tango was being made. Those came later. The only other Christine track that could have been used is Ricky--far inferior in my opinion to the ones on the record. I agree that You and part I should have been on there, but not at the expense of part II, which is also great.

[TrueFaith77]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

I'm pretty sure neither Heart of Stone or Make Me a Mask were written when Tango was being made. Those came later. The only other Christine track that could have been used is Ricky--far inferior in my opinion to the ones on the record. I agree that You and part I should have been on there, but not at the expense of part II, which is also great.

Ricky doesn't have lyrics right?

[SuzeQuze]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Hey! What more anecdotal evidence do you need? Just think of the 50 Stevie songs that sound the worst and know that Lindsey is directly responsible for them.

I also think I've heard Stevie say he neglected/hurt her songs on purpose in the later years. Or at least stopped putting real effort into them. I can't remember in what interview it was but I think it was on video.

[priestofnothing]

Originally Posted by wolfontherun

Was it the drugs, was Lindsey too angry with her to help make her songs better, was she fed up with the Mac?

I have never really hated anything from Stevie Solo or with FM but Welcome is just so horrible. No melody, no ispiration in her voice. SW is nice but not her song really and I think there werre other producers involved in the production who were not credited. It sounds nothing like A FM song to me.

Then there is Whats a matter. I do like this one and I love the way L finishes it off for her.

I totally agree with everything you've said here. I used to think Linds got his revenge on SN on this album. I don't enjoy any of her contributions to this album, not even Seven Wonders. I do like her b-up vocals on Little Lies though, but that's not her song.

To paraphrase Stevie on Linds "he made wonderful songs for me - uh, when, uh, when he was happy with me...." I think he was most unhappy and frustrated with Stevie during this period - and it definitely in her songs on this album. And proving the theory, right after the album, he quit the band, so he was pretty fed up with all of it.

[David]

Originally Posted by SuzeQuze

I also think I've heard Stevie say he neglected/hurt her songs on purpose in the later years. Or at least stopped putting real effort into them. I can't remember in what interview it was but I think it was on video.

The majority of Madame Nicks' opinions don't even rise to the dubious level of anecdotal.

Incidentally, what Stevie Nicks song on a Fleetwood Mac album demonstrates an absence of "real effort" on Lindsey's or Fleetwood Mac's part? Not WELCOME TO THE ROOM, surely. It shows plenty of effort -- complexity in the arrangement of instruments (a Fleetwood Mac trademark), top-notch technical performance from instrumentalists & backup vocalists, pristine mix & mastering, etc. The idea they all had for the song sucks, but that isn't the same as saying it shows no effort. The same distinction applies to SAY YOU WILL, as far as I'm concerned. I don't like what the band did with some of it, but it all shows enormous effort. None of it is tossed off casually or carelessly. I can't think of a single Stevie Nicks number on an FM album that doesn't show a great deal of effort. Absolutely none of it indicates sabotage from cranky ex-lovers or jealous bandmates.

When Stevie doesn't like the results, she blames people who help her with ideas, with arrangements, with orchestration, etc., over & over again, & who get very little credit for it among the listening public.

[jwd]

Originally Posted by louielouie2000

Make Me A Mask was another amazing song that should have made it on the record. Christine could have had Heart Of Stone included too.

Christine could have gone solo at this time. I think she sounds the most amazingly on top of her game on TITN.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by TrueFaith77

Ricky doesn't have lyrics right?

Well, it has lyrics, but they're kind of off-the-cuff and not meant to be serious. Christine doing her sexy voice.

Michele

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by David

The majority of Madame Nicks' opinions don't even rise to the dubious level of anecdotal.

The idea they all had for the song sucks, but that isn't the same as saying it shows no effort.

I agree with this, even if you think demo versions of the song sound better, what doesn't work can't be chalked up to neglect. Take something like Silver Girl. Of all the bad things I can say about it, I can't accuse the production of being slipshod. When Stevie's unarticulated vision of a song is not met that doesn't mean that Lindsey was not happy with her.

I do accuse Running Through the Garden of not being produced, but that's just me being silly. The problem with it is that it wasn't made . . . tight. Too many flowers to cut down.

Michele

[JbbyStew86]

i agree with what was said earlier about these being very biographical, especially when i see you again

but the writing, and the actual output are what dont connect on this album. interestingly she caught more flak for her output on gypsy, some of which i agree with, some i dont.

i think lindsey and christine were much more collaborative here, and their work is really solid, especially lindsey's. both of their work is individually cohesive, in the same aspects of tusk. if you took all of LB's songs from Tusk and throw them together, you have a good solo album. taking his and christines songs from TITN there is a good start to solo albums. of course he was doing that anyway, and gave them up.

i dont see that with stevie's work on this album. i do like seven wonders, it could have very easily been on TOSOTM.

[UndoingTheLaces]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Well, it has lyrics, but they're kind of off-the-cuff and not meant to be serious. Christine doing her sexy voice.

Michele

I remember how thrilled I was when Little Lies came out and this was the B-side. I loved it then and still do. I think because it's so quirky and silly yet very sweet. And the music reminds me of a little fantasy, like someone walking through a hallway full of doors with little spirits flying back and fourth or something.

Okay, I have insomnia and really should be in bed. I'll read this tomorrow and just cringe.

[starshine]

Tango has not ever been one of my favorite Mac cds period. Its so techno
80's stuff....I don't really like Stevie's songs very much during this time. I'd still be interested to hear Seven Wonders with the original lyrics...since when Stevie recorded it at the time it didn't have Sandys lyrics in it...well she added to it. It was kinda snotty of FMac (whomever said that she couldn't re-record this song with its original lyrics...heck it wasn't really her song) it was Sandy Stewarts song(meaning not fair to SS). Now what if they'd told Lindsey or Christine...no you can't record over the song you just did your out of luck. Now we don't know 'all' that went down other than what we've been told by all. So we are missing pieces of this puzzle for sure. Anyway, its coppy at best...not my favorite. I personally like the When I See You Again version that Stevie didn't like where they answer each other back. I think thats more dramatic than what was released really. I think this LP could've been more balanced and the fact that even though Stevie was going through alot at the time...she was still a member of FMac and she still should've been treated equally....Not well...your not here so there. That kinda attitude gets you like nowhere really. It could've been a much better lp to me....one of my least favorites probably besides Mask too....IMO anyway.....(same with Stevie's RAL....unbalanced LP/cd).....

[vermicious knid]

Originally Posted by TrueFaith77

Lindsey and Christine seemed to collaborate quite a bit, at least on her songs, Mystified, and You and I Part II (did they co-write YAIP1?). Every Lindsey and Christine song seem to belong on the same album, sorta, but the Stevie songs stick out like sore thumbs.

Juliet could have been a comparable S&L collaberation. The raw outtake that we have is terrible, but the Book of Miracles instrumental that mirrors it is great. I would like to have that one, complete with Lindsey joining Stevie on "So you found a queen without a king" like Bruce Hornsby does on TOSOTM.