"Time" Appreciation Thread

[David]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

I was going to say that, but figured that Jeremy was on that one. "Future Games" was the first without either of their original guitarists, AND it had an American!

You still like that song "Future Games," don't you. What are the chords please?

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by David

You still like that song "Future Games," don't you. What are the chords please?

I do LOVE that song (and the album), but I don't know the chords. I had figured out "Woman Of 1000 Years" probably 10 years ago, but for the life of me I can't remember it.

[Miss Vicky]

Originally Posted by David

I never hear you discuss the plasticity of the listening experience: surely that plays as great a role in an album's stature as more logistical concerns (such as what song is on what CD).

That's because I don't think of things that way. I look at the greatness of albums in terms of being nothing more than the sum of its parts and if enough of those parts move me, then I rank the album high on my list. If not, it gets low marks. As for Behind the Mask, I love all of its parts with the notable exception of "The Second Time," quite possibly the worst Fleetwood Mac song ever.

I also don't really think of artists in terms of what albums are great because it's really rare for me to listen to an album from start to finish. More often I just compile my favorites together onto a seperate disc and listen to that.

I'm just shallow like that, I guess.

[foxyluva]

Originally Posted by Miss Vicky

That's because I don't think of things that way. I look at the greatness of albums in terms of being nothing more than the sum of its parts and if enough of those parts move me, then I rank the album high on my list. If not, it gets low marks. As for Behind the Mask, I love all of its parts with the notable exception of "The Second Time," quite possibly the worst Fleetwood Mac song ever.

I also don't really think of artists in terms of what albums are great because it's really rare for me to listen to an album from start to finish. More often I just compile my favorites together onto a seperate disc and listen to that.

I'm just shallow like that, I guess.

Hey! Don't Attack 'The Second Time' - thats a great song

Time, i can admit, has it's quirks, but IT IS NOT FLEETWOOD MAC! Mick should have known that you can't go changing the members of the band around everytime someone leaves - It worked with Stevie & Lindsey - i think that he thought that it would work again. I really think he should have gone with The Zoo instead, and tried to make them into something

[chiliD]

Originally Posted by foxyluva

Hey! Don't Attack 'The Second Time' - thats a great song

In the same way George W. Bush is a great president? Ummm...yeah, I guess so.

Originally Posted by foxyluva

Time, i can admit, has it's quirks, but IT IS NOT FLEETWOOD MAC! Mick should have known that you can't go changing the members of the band around everytime someone leaves - It worked with Stevie & Lindsey - i think that he thought that it would work again. I really think he should have gone with The Zoo instead, and tried to make them into something

WTF?!? Do you NOT know the history of the band? When somebody leaves, somebody else joins (in most cases, Dave Walker, Bob Weston & Christine McVie were the exceptions)...that's how Fleetwood Mac works. And, to that end, if Mick & John SAY it is Fleetwood Mac, it's Fleetwood Mac...regardless of who's playing guitar, keyboards, singing or writing the songs.

[foxyluva]

Originally Posted by chiliD

In the same way George W. Bush is a great president? Ummm...yeah, I guess so.

WTF?!? Do you NOT know the history of the band? When somebody leaves, somebody else joins (in most cases, Dave Walker, Bob Weston & Christine McVie were the exceptions)...that's how Fleetwood Mac works. And, to that end, if Mick & John SAY it is Fleetwood Mac, it's Fleetwood Mac...regardless of who's playing guitar, keyboards, singing or writing the songs.

LOL, that statement about George Bush had me rolling around the floor

I disagree about the lineup changes though. I understand that there have been MANY in the past - but I think that the Stevie Nicks & Lindsey Buckingham incarnation had become so famous that to try and call any new reincarnation without them as members was silly

Although, bringing back previous members would have been a different story...

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by foxyluva

I disagree about the lineup changes though. I understand that there have been MANY in the past - but I think that the Stevie Nicks & Lindsey Buckingham incarnation had become so famous that to try and call any new reincarnation without them as members was silly

I think adding new personnel was a legitimate move, though maybe not a practical one, at least the way they went about it. I completely understand why they did it, though. Losing Stevie and Lindsey was nowhere near as devastating as losing Peter Green, relatively speaking. Peter Green, in terms of success, WAS Fleetwood Mac. Yet, somehow, they managed to not only get beyond Peter Green, they ended up becoming a hugely successful band in the process. But, with the "Rumours" band, there were three writers, and the one still in the band had almost as many hit singles with the band as the other two combined. If they could survive Green's departure, why couldn't they have survived Stevie and Lindsey's departure?

The problem, though, is that they became too subservient to the "Rumours" material. During 1987 and 1990 tours, they glorified the past too much and stopped focusing on the band's future. They became a nostalgia act. And, it only got worse with the "Time" band. Their sets, which I enjoyed on one level, made getting beyond "Rumours" almost impossible. In short, I don’t think it was a bad idea to add new personnel so long as they let the new folks do their own music, with a few of the classics. But, by trying to keep the illusion of the “Rumours” band going, they limited their full potential.

[shackin'up]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

But, by trying to keep the illusion of the “Rumours” band going, they limited their full potential.

You're probably right. But now it is not different. You can say this exactly about the B/N-mac from 2003 an 2004.

[bretonbanquet]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

The problem, though, is that they became too subservient to the "Rumours" material. During 1987 and 1990 tours, they glorified the past too much and stopped focusing on the band's future. They became a nostalgia act. And, it only got worse with the "Time" band. Their sets, which I enjoyed on one level, made getting beyond "Rumours" almost impossible. In short, I don’t think it was a bad idea to add new personnel so long as they let the new folks do their own music, with a few of the classics. But, by trying to keep the illusion of the “Rumours” band going, they limited their full potential.

Amen to that

Progress is everything, even if it's not well-received. Once you stop progressing, you are history - literally

[David]

Originally Posted by SteveMacD

The problem, though, is that they became too subservient to the "Rumours" material. During 1987 and 1990 tours, they glorified the past too much and stopped focusing on the band's future. They became a nostalgia act. And, it only got worse with the "Time" band. Their sets, which I enjoyed on one level, made getting beyond "Rumours" almost impossible. In short, I don’t think it was a bad idea to add new personnel so long as they let the new folks do their own music, with a few of the classics.

I go all the way & say that they should have ignored all songs from the members who were gone. Every time the Time band performed an old Buckingham or Nicks or McVie classic, the little thought flitted through the brains of the audience: "Hey, where IS that person?"

Even the name of the band made that little thought flit through the brains of the audience for the 1994/95 shows. Sometimes that little thought was even vocalized. I should know. I heard it vocalized a few times. People eating their prime rib.

You have to re-create yourself if your most recognizable members split. Either luck is on your side & you manage to reinvent a "new" band with the same name to which the public flocks, or you flounder. Fleetwood Mac floundered. We all probably have different reasons as to why it floundered: I think it was bad logistical planning & a complete absence of forward thinking; others might think it was just bad luck & not really the fault of anyone in the band (like Mick & John).

I also maintain that it's next to impossible for a band to reinvent itself after a period of extreme popularity with new personnel if it doesn't have hit songs. The early '70s Fleetwood Macs did all right, but that was probably because they didn't have to combat that period of extreme popularity in their new home country. If they had stayed in England, they'd have faced the same problems that the 1994 Fleetwood Mac faced.

Maybe that was the answer: Fleetwood Mac should have moved to another country in 1994 where the Rumours group weren't stratospheric.

[PsychCat]

I really like Christine's songs on "Time". Granted, she could rewrite the phonebook and accompany herself on piano while singing it and I would buy it... but truly her songs did seem more familiar to her pre-B/N tunes.

And this is probably the best place to ask this....
WHY was Dave Mason in? That struck me as odd enough at the time and I thought lent itself to the tour as more of a "remember us?" thing sharing a stage with the likes of Pat Benatar and REO.

And I have missed Christine's remarks about Dave Mason up until I've read references to it here. Any links or crumbs to shed light on this? Thanks!

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by PsychCat

And this is probably the best place to ask this....
WHY was Dave Mason in? That struck me as odd enough at the time and I thought lent itself to the tour as more of a "remember us?" thing sharing a stage with the likes of Pat Benatar and REO.

With Rick Vito and Billy Burnette out of the picture (Billy quit the band in early 1993, but came back within a year), the band needed a guitarist. They actually were accepting tapes from guitarists. Dave Mason was an old friend of Mick Fleetwood's, and was staying at Mick's place after his longtime collaborator/musical partner Jim Krueger (who wrote "We Just Disagree") died. Dave and Mick were having a conversation. Dave asked Mick how the search for a guitarist was coming. Mick said "If it gets any worse, I'll have to ask you to join my band." Dave said "So, ask me." Mick asked "Would you like to be in my band." Dave said "I'd love to be in your band."

At least that's the story I've heard. The bottom line is that Dave was a legend in his own right, and without Stevie, Lindsey, or Christine (touring), I think Mick thought Dave could add a little star power (credibility) to the band. Considering Fleetwood Mac opened for Dave when in the early days with Stevie and Lindsey, and he opened for Fleetwood Mac during a few dates on the "Mirage" tour, it's not like there hadn't been a little association already.

And, considering they added Bekka Bramlett, who's folks had a minor hit with Dave Mason's "Only You Know And I Know" and worked extensively with Mason, I think Mick felt there was an obvious association that would jump start a group chemistry. I think adding Dave to the group was in the back of Mick's mind for a while, too. When I met Mick in 1992 at a Zoo show, I asked if they were going to add any Delaney & Bonnie songs to the set and he said "We may add that song by Dave Mason. He recorded it, and then they recorded it. I can't remember the name, but it was written by Dave Mason. Bekka would know the name of the song."

As for the "Time" tours/oldies thing, I guess I'd have more of an issue with it if it weren't for the simple fact that they weren't touring in support of an album. A year earlier, they opened for Crosby, Stills, and Nash, which felt totally natural (considering Mason's affiliation with that group AND their keyboardist, Mike Finnigan, who was a member of the Dave Mason Band). Those tours were to make money and build chemistry. Which really worked, considering the whole Bekka & Billy thing.

Originally Posted by PsychCat

And I have missed Christine's remarks about Dave Mason up until I've read references to it here. Any links or crumbs to shed light on this? Thanks!

Basically, on an AOL chat, she said she though that adding Dave Mason was a bit bizarre, that she didn't see how he fit into Fleetwood Mac, and that if it had been up to her, they would have added Lindsey Buckingham. Christine and Dave go WAY back, though. Pre-Chicken Shack. She was Spencer Davis' girlfriend when he "discovered" Steve Winwood. Dave Mason was a roadie for the Spencer Davis Group. Christine is close friends with Steve Winwood, and there was always a mutual dislike between Mason and Winwood, so that may have played into it. There's a lot of history, and there's a lot that we don't know. But, I KNOW that the Dave/Christine thing goes far beyond creative differences.

[SteveMacD]

Originally Posted by shackin'up

You're probably right. But now it is not different. You can say this exactly about the B/N-mac from 2003 an 2004.

Not really, though. Stevie and Lindsey actually wrote all the songs they sang (save for "Don't Stop"), and played about a third of a brand new album. While it was very much a machine with little heart (save for McVie's basslines!), and included songs we've heard too many times before, I don't think I'd call it an oldies act.

They only played three "new" songs on the "Time" tours, one of which ("The Bigger The Love") had already appeared on two Billy Burnette albums and John McVie's album, and relied too heavily on "Rumours" era material and Dave Mason solo/Traffic material. That being said, I really liked what they did with "Gold Dust Woman."

[macfan 57]

Originally Posted by PsychCat

And I have missed Christine's remarks about Dave Mason up until I've read references to it here. Any links or crumbs to shed light on this? Thanks!

Here's a transcript of that online chat. It's in the Blue Letter Archives on this website.

http://bla.fleetwoodmac.net/index.ph..._v2&id=401&c=2

[PsychCat]

WOW!! Y'all are amazing at getting answers around here.
Thanks for the updates and links.