Stevie Nicks Disappointed With Sales Of Her Latest Album

[KarmaContestant]

Originally Posted by TheSorcerer

I don't think it's right or fair to generalise by saying that all younger people today listen to crappy music.

There's a lot of amazing music being made out there today, you just have to look past the top 40 to find a lot of it. HAIM, Lissie, Fossil Collective, First Aid Kit, Mat Kearney, Edward Sharpe and the Magnetic Zeros, Imagine Dragons, Florence + the Machine, Kathleen Edwards, Lauren Aquilina, Phoenix are just a few examples. It's not like there wasn't crap music released back in the 1980s.

Indeed! I could name another two or three dozen artists that are *not* on the radio and *are* making great music that is not rap, hip-hop, club or techno. It really bugs the heck out of me when people make blanket statments about music today being crap. Usually it's because they genuinely haven't been exposed to the good stuff!

[Chris_Lover]

Originally Posted by TheSorcerer

I don't think it's right or fair to generalise by saying that all younger people today listen to crappy music.
There's a lot of amazing music being made out there today (...). It's not like there wasn't crap music released back in the 1980s.

I'm afraid I didn't explain myself well in my previous post. I'm not generalizing, I just talk about what I see and read everyday. Unluckily I live in a country where good music is dead at least 20 years ago, and this doesn't help. Of course there's a lot of young people who listen to good music and I realized it thanks to Tumblr. It always makes me happy to I discover that teenage people listen to FM, Beatles and Pink Floyd (for example) and it's true that there was a lot of crap music even back in the 80s, but if I have to choose, undoubtedly I'd choose 80s crap music: it still had a soul and wasn't just a terrible electronic noise like 80% of today's music.

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by TheSorcerer

Stevie's solo career has never really been as big outside of the US that it is (was?) inside. Her sales outside of the US aren't actually THAT impressive, especially when comparing them with other female rock singers like Tina Turner who has released a similar amount of albums to Stevie and is held in a similar regard by both critics and fans.

That's truly hysterical. Tina Turner is good at what she does, but she is the anti-Stevie in every way. She doesn't write her own songs. Her shows were all about glitz and choreography. She traded on her sex appeal in a very, very obvious way. She consciously recorded music that was first and foremost commercial and sellable. Stevie, on the other hand, became commercially successful despite her eccentricities and her insistence on doing things in her own idiosyncratic way. No, Stevie is not packing football stadiums in Hungary, but I don't think that is the kind of stardom she aspired to; she was not willing to "sell out" by recording other people's songs and dancing around in skimpy outfits.

Stevie has probably sold about 10 million records outside of the US, maybe a bit less than that. That isn't exactly bad going but it's also not amazing considering the level many of her fans place her on. I have to laugh when people in magazines and on TV claim she's sold 140 million albums worldwide. Fleetwood Mac's sales make up for about 120 million of that figure and shouldn't be counted towards Stevie's solo sales.

Of course she deserves to claim every single last copy of Rumours that was ever sold. Her songs and voice are on it! The only difference between a Fleetwood Mac album and a Stevie Nicks album is the fact that she shares credit and album real estate with other people.

She should swallow her pride and play smaller venues.

Why? The venues on her last tour looked pretty well filled to me.

Then there's the lack of touring in a lot of countries. Tina Turner did the right thing and made her presence known as a live act outside of the US and built up a strong following that way. Stevie has virtually ignored many places for the majority of her solo career and that's been a problem.

I tend to think there is a taste level issue involved here, and it's not simply a matter of whether or not she promoted herself properly. Stevie has a very specific, binary appeal- either you get her or you don't get her. I don't know of many people who are simply indifferent. In the case of Europe, I just tend to think the European musical palette is different; they seem to be more admiring of "entertainers" versus "musicians," hence the immense popularity of non-songwriting singers like Tina Turner, Joe Cocker, Kylie Minogue, Anastacia, Bonnie Tyler, Tom Jones, etc. I think perhaps Americans are a bit more demanding of their performers.

Let's be honest here, her solo success peaked with her first album and was pretty much dead for the majority of the 1990s, plus the lack of new material between 2001 and 2011 has done her no favours. I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to belittle her career or attack her, it's just that a lot of her impact and what people make reference to nowadays seems to be the work she's done with Fleetwood Mac and not her actual solo career. How many people talk about Rock a Little or The Other Side of the Mirror? Her only really lasting success in her solo career is Bella Donna.

Well, we also have to realize that Stevie was already 33 by the time she achieved superstardom as a solo artist; time was not on her side from the get-go. To her credit, and to all of FM's credit really, it is remarkable that a bunch of people pushing 50-55 years of age were able to sell 5 million copies of an album (The Dance). Considering her late start, she still had a brilliant solo career at a stage of life when many of her peers had fallen to the wayside to make room for the young 'uns.

You're crazy if you think Stevie doesn't care about the money. I highly doubt she continues to tour with Fleetwood Mac just for the fun of it.

And you're crazy if you think Stevie embarked on the journey of recording IYD with the idea of making mountains of money. She's no dummy. Recording/releasing new music today, except for an extremely small group of people, is a zero-sum game. A "hit album" today sells 400,000 copies today instead of 1,000,000. And if you are lucky enough to sell 400K and make $3 per album, having a "hit album" would mean getting a bit north of $1 million, which sounds like a decent sum. But it quickly disappears when you factor in taxes, recording/promotional expenses, salaries, artwork, lawyers, agents, etc. And it is even more paltry when you consider that she probably earns more money in one week on the road than she would by spending 10 months in the studio. If Stevie was truly in this for the money, she would be touring with Fleetwood Mac incessantly instead of writing and recording. Let the record reflect that she delayed the current Fleetwood Mac tour for year so that she could continue pursuing her less lucrative solo career.

[Chris_Lover]

Originally Posted by KarmaContestant

It really bugs the heck out of me when people make blanket statments about music today being crap. Usually it's because they genuinely haven't been exposed to the good stuff!

No, it's not like this and I don't understand this attack towards my post. I'm not used to write stupid things or talk about something that is a "mystery to me". I don't like arguing and generally keep myself away from controversies. I've just expressed my opinion, everyone is free to do so and I didn't offend anyone. So, what's the problem? You know me to say that I'm not "exposed to good stuff", really? O_o
Believe me that I listen to a lot of today's music and that's why I can express my humble opinion, everyone has their own tastes. I'm not judging yours. I was born in 1983, I had enough time to listen to a lot of good and bad stuff to learn something about music during the years.
I know there are still good singers or groups today, for example Fleet Foxes (I love their "Mykonos" so much) or Edward Sharpe and the Magnetic Zeros (I dedicated their "Home"to my ex gf). I'm not saying that today ALL music is crap, but it's more difficult to find quality music. That's all. I hope I made myself clear this time.

PS: I wouldn't want to leave the forum again or report people to the admin. When you write here, as long as you respect other's opinion, you shouldn't feel afraid to write yours just to avoid being attacked.

[elle]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

Let the record reflect that she delayed the current Fleetwood Mac tour for year so that she could continue pursuing her less lucrative solo career.

exactly! like touring solo with Rod Stewart instead of recording lucrative new album with the Mac.

(sorry couldn't resist. you know i am more than grateful to her for facilitating everything that happened in 2012 / OMS tour )

i'm waiting for some European fans reactions to your interesting proposition about what the differences are between the US vs the European market taste in music.

[nicolasjz]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I tend to think there is a taste level issue involved here, and it's not simply a matter of whether or not she promoted herself properly. Stevie has a very specific, binary appeal- either you get her or you don't get her. I don't know of many people who are simply indifferent. In the case of Europe, I just tend to think the European musical palette is different; they seem to be more admiring of "entertainers" versus "musicians," hence the immense popularity of non-songwriting singers like Tina Turner, Joe Cocker, Kylie Minogue, Anastacia, Bonnie Tyler, Tom Jones, etc. I think perhaps Americans are a bit more demanding of their performers.

As a European I'm a little offended by what you just said. The idea that the U.S, the land of commercialism, entertainment, sacred money and vulgar and talentless popstars is "more demandingof its performers" is just laughable.

Let me just give you a short list of real, artistic songwriters who are more popular in Europe than in the US:
- Tom Waits
- David Bowie
- Bruce Springsteen (yes, the Boss can still fill stadiums in Europe, no longer in America)
- Leonard Cohen
- The Pixies
- Marianne Faithfull
- Neil Young
- Patti Smith
- Tracy Chapman
And countless others. You'll notice that many of them are actually American.

The reason why Stevie had no success whatsoever in Europe is simple: she's hardly ever toured there! Had she toured for Bella Donna and The Wild Heart, she certainly would have built a following there. By the time she finally came for OSOTM, she was nearing the nadir of her commercial success. And of course, she never went there ever again. As I said in another post, Stevie has only herself to blame for her lack of success in Europe.
At the same time you have to give credit to Tina Turner for going on these massive world tours and playing tirelessely in Europe. That she became a much bigger star there than Stevie is only logical and fair.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

In the case of Europe, I just tend to think the European musical palette is different; they seem to be more admiring of "entertainers" versus "musicians," hence the immense popularity of non-songwriting singers like Tina Turner, Joe Cocker, Kylie Minogue, Anastacia, Bonnie Tyler, Tom Jones, etc. I think perhaps Americans are a bit more demanding of their performers.

Oh, you're saying you don't think David Hasselhoff is a wonderful actor? I don't buy it.

Michele

[KarmaContestant]

Originally Posted by Chris_Lover

No, it's not like this and I don't understand this attack towards my post. I'm not used to write stupid things or talk about something that is a "mystery to me". I don't like arguing and generally keep myself away from controversies. I've just expressed my opinion, everyone is free to do so and I didn't offend anyone. So, what's the problem? You know me to say that I'm not "exposed to good stuff", really? O_o

My post was not directed at you, personally. I meant, in general, that there are a lot of people - here on The Ledge, on other forums, in the office I work at, friends, family, et cetera, who complain about music not being good anymore. And, yes, it's because they aren't exposed to it. They're still listening to their albums by The Police from 1980 and wondering why there are "no good bands out there anymore" (a quote from a coworker)

I don't know you, your taste in music, or what you are and are not familiar with. I was speaking in generalizations, and not attacking you. My apologies for any misunderstanding.

[Chris_Lover]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

In the case of Europe, I just tend to think the European musical palette is different; they seem to be more admiring of "entertainers" versus "musicians," hence the immense popularity of non-songwriting singers like Tina Turner, Joe Cocker, Kylie Minogue, Anastacia, Bonnie Tyler, Tom Jones, etc. I think perhaps Americans are a bit more demanding of their performers.

Originally Posted by elle

i'm waiting for some European fans reactions to your interesting proposition about what the differences are between the US vs the European market taste in music.

I have to admit that you are right! As I wrote before, living in Italy means that you have to face crap music everyday. Italian society just admire vapid entertainment in spite of quality. For example, so you all can see that what I'm writing it's not just my opinion, yesterday evening I was watching "The voice" on tv: some of ours best singers said that Italy miss good songwriters and we really need to open up towards American music industry, because the can teach us a lot. Americans do it better, and it's true. Everytime I listen to US (or UK) music, I can't stop thinking: "God, why can't we be that good?". And I feel ashamed of my country.
How many times I wondered why Fleetwood Mac are not famous here and they never came in Italy for a concert (even if Stevie said she'd like to sing near Naples, where she wrote "Italian Summer"). I still don't have an answer for that, but I guess it's because all we listened to during the 60s and 70s was Mina, Lucio Battisti, The Pooh and other national singers. Easy music, easy money. Being a small-minded country, maybe it was "sinful" to spread the music of a group that, back then, was totally absorbed in drugs, alcohol, divorces/breakups. A country that only during the late 80s began to open up to foreign music, but that today has forgotten everything it learned and sold its soul to everything that is commercial, because it's like gold here. We have fallen into decay and banality and believe me, it's a pity because you can't even imagine how many italian FM fans there are out there!

[Chris_Lover]

Originally Posted by KarmaContestant

My post was not directed at you, personally. I meant, in general (..). I don't know you, your taste in music, or what you are and are not familiar with. I was speaking in generalizations, and not attacking you. My apologies for any misunderstanding.

Don't worry, I understand and I'm sorry for the misundertanding too!

[HejiraNYC]

Originally Posted by nicolasjz

As a European I'm a little offended by what you just said. The idea that the U.S, the land of commercialism, entertainment, sacred money and vulgar and talentless popstars is "more demandingof its performers" is just laughable.

Let me just give you a short list of real, artistic songwriters who are more popular in Europe than in the US:
- Tom Waits
- David Bowie
- Bruce Springsteen (yes, the Boss can still fill stadiums in Europe, no longer in America)
- Leonard Cohen
- The Pixies
- Marianne Faithfull
- Neil Young
- Patti Smith
- Tracy Chapman
And countless others. You'll notice that many of them are actually American.

The reason why Stevie had no success whatsoever in Europe is simple: she's hardly ever toured there! Had she toured for Bella Donna and The Wild Heart, she certainly would have built a following there. By the time she finally came for OSOTM, she was nearing the nadir of her commercial success. And of course, she never went there ever again. As I said in another post, Stevie has only herself to blame for her lack of success in Europe.
At the same time you have to give credit to Tina Turner for going on these massive world tours and playing tirelessely in Europe. That she became a much bigger star there than Stevie is only logical and fair.

No need to get your panties in a twist; my last comment was said in jest, as in . That aside, you can definitely see that there is a different musical palette in Europe, and I think it has little to do with touring. I know this is purely conjecture, but I think Stevie could tour Europe 365 shows a year and she still wouldn't be all that popular as a solo artist. She's had plenty of exposure to European audiences through her multiple tours of Europe with Fleetwood Mac, so people definitely know about her. But for whatever reason, they haven't embraced her as a solo artist. If they aren't buying her solo records, chances are they are not going to go out and see her shows.

Also, the examples you cite are false/misleading:

Marianne Faithfull is not a songwriter.
Bruce Springsteen is still definitely a stadium attraction in the U.S.
Leonard Cohen is an arena-sized attraction (sold out Madison Square Garden) in the U.S.
Neil Young is immensely popular in the U.S.; also able to sell out multiple nights at arenas.

[nicolasjz]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

No need to get your panties in a twist; my last comment was said in jest, as in . That aside, you can definitely see that there is a different musical palette in Europe, and I think it has little to do with touring. I know this is purely conjecture, but I think Stevie could tour Europe 365 shows a year and she still wouldn't be all that popular as a solo artist. She's had plenty of exposure to European audiences through her multiple tours of Europe with Fleetwood Mac, so people definitely know about her. But for whatever reason, they haven't embraced her as a solo artist. If they aren't buying her solo records, chances are they are not going to go out and see her shows.

Also, the examples you cite are false/misleading:

Marianne Faithfull is not a songwriter.
Bruce Springsteen is still definitely a stadium attraction in the U.S.
Leonard Cohen is an arena-sized attraction (sold out Madison Square Garden) in the U.S.
Neil Young is immensely popular in the U.S.; also able to sell out multiple nights at arenas.

I can't imagine that if she had done a European tour for BD or WH it wouldn't have made a difference. I mean, at that time touring made a huge difference in an artist's commercial success and a fantastic performer like Stevie would certainly have made an impression on European fans. It's not enough for her to tour with FM. It was a three-vocalist band, plus in many European markets (at least in France), the person most associated with FM is actually Peter Green. So I'm convinced that had she toured Europe when she was at her peak in the early 80s it would have made her at least reasonably popular.

Also:
- Marianne Faithfull is a songwriter. True, she rarely pens her songs single-handedly like Stevie often does but still.
- Look at Bruce's last tours. In Europe he plays stadiums almost exclusively and always sells out. In America, except for key markets (New Jersey, Boston) he only plays sports arenas and even there he often doesn't sell out. On his last tour barely half of his American concerts were sold out.
- Leonard Cohen's last record was his first top 50 studio album ever in America and his first top 100 album in 43 years! On the whole his albums have been way more successful in Europe.

[KarmaContestant]

Originally Posted by elle

i'm waiting for some European fans reactions to your interesting proposition about what the differences are between the US vs the European market taste in music.

I'm American, but at this stage of my life I find European music to be much better - most of my favorite music is from European artists. OK, well, primarily British, but that still counts.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by KarmaContestant

My post was not directed at you, personally. I meant, in general, that there are a lot of people - here on The Ledge, on other forums, in the office I work at, friends, family, et cetera, who complain about music not being good anymore. And, yes, it's because they aren't exposed to it. They're still listening to their albums by The Police from 1980 and wondering why there are "no good bands out there anymore" (a quote from a coworker)

Yes, there was an article about baby boomers clinging to their old music. I think I put it in MacNuggets, because Fleetwood Mac was mentioned. I tend to hear new country music all the time, but otherwise you basically have to get the media attention bestowed on Adele for me to realize that you're alive. My music exploration stopped when I was about 30.

Michele

[KarmaContestant]

Originally Posted by michelej1

Yes, there was an article about baby boomers clinging to their old music. I think I put it in MacNuggets, because Fleetwood Mac was mentioned. I tend to hear new country music all the time, but otherwise you basically have to get the media attention bestowed on Adele for me to realize that you're alive. My music exploration stopped when I was about 30.

Michele

I'll be 40 in August, but I'm lucky to have a lot of friends who are very much into whatever music no one is listening to yet. Once it's popular, they move on. I get a lot of recommendations from various people - and of all places - iTunes. iTunes has a feature that selects music for you based on what you've purchased previously, and more often than not, it's been *spot on*, for me anyway. It also helps that I like a very wide variety of genres. While I like to say that I'm not a fan of rap, hip-hop or country, I surprise myself with how much of this stuff I actually do enjoy.

My local record store plays a lot of stuff that I near while shopping, which I end up buying. Speaking of country (well, kind of) I discovered Neko Case this way, and was amazed that she had been around for so long and had somehow escaped my music radar.

What I really wish for are radio stations with DJs that think for themselves and play their own sets. I want to hear songs on the radio by artists I've never heard of before!