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  #61  
Old 10-28-2019, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrownsjr View Post
I love the rehearsals of Save Me A Place with Christine on guitar. Also, the harmonies on that song. And I also love the long version of Not That Funny (Mirage) on the upright. Would love to have seen Don't Stop on the Upright on the HBO special.
A-men
Sadly Chris retired the upright after Mirage. Loved watching her play Sara and Not That Funny. It would be a dream to see Don't Stop
IMHO when the upright left the stage, the Mac was never the same
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  #62  
Old 10-28-2019, 05:15 PM
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A-men
Sadly Chris retired the upright after Mirage. Loved watching her play Sara and Not That Funny. It would be a dream to see Don't Stop
IMHO when the upright left the stage, the Mac was never the same
Mirage was really the end of them as being "just a band". Big production started taking over by Tango. Stevie's backup singers, and off stage keyboard players.
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  #63  
Old 10-29-2019, 12:33 PM
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I think Chris played both Don’t Stop and Songbird on her Yamaha grand (or the Hamilton before that). When I was ahem much younger, I used to throw sheet music and aluminum drink coasters into the grand piano to simulate the honky-tonky sound Christine got for Sara and Not That Funny. It’s actually easier to tack a grand piano than an upright because the iron plate, the soundboard, the bridge and the strings are all horizontal—so bits of trash can be added under the lid and will just lie there. For an upright, you have to construct an entire mechanical rigmarole that offsets by pedal, and what teenager has the wherewithal to do that while his parents aren’t looking (as he trashes their Yamaha C7)?

Tacking the piano sounds as if it was originally Lindsey’s idea for the tour. But if Stevie played the tack piano originally on the demo, it may have been one of her friends’ idea—maybe Tom.
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  #64  
Old 10-29-2019, 12:51 PM
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Mirage was really the end of them as being "just a band". Big production started taking over by Tango. Stevie's backup singers, and off stage keyboard players.
True. Although many of us forget that even during, say, the Tusk and Mirage tours, there was more than one extra guy playing something or other. Ray Lindsey, of course, playing rhythm guitar on Second Hand News, Gypsy, and Go Your Own Way. Jeff Sova played a tape of all that Dodger Stadium noise on Tusk and also played an Oberheim or something to simulate some brass (it didn’t sound like brass back then—it sounded like a synthesizer saw wave). Sova also played a synth pad on Hold Me in 1982. And Tony Todaro played drums on his own kit on Tusk in 1980—you could see him in silhouette playing behind Mick at the Hollywood Bowl.

But these guys didn’t swamp the show by any means, or detract any attention from the four main instrumentalists. So, yes, the nonsense started in 1987 with digital instrumentation. Remember Mick’s nonsense on World Turning that year with the Atari vest? I doubt he was triggering absolutely everything we heard—which sounded like a film soundtrack orchestra: swelling strings and brass, Mick’s digitized shouting, the percussive stuff from him tapping his vest, etc. Dan Garfield added all sorts of stuff offstage to most of the set, including Seven Wonders, Gold Dust Woman, Everywhere, and Little Lies. A few years afterward, he even sold his rig and modules on eBay.

This past year’s tour was ridiculous on that front. Weren’t there something like 14 people onstage? One of the reviews in the paper even called them out on it. It was certainly the first time that Fleetwood Mac ever played with two Hammond B3s live. Why on earth . . . ?! Why does any live outfit need two B3s?
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  #65  
Old 10-29-2019, 04:40 PM
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True. Although many of us forget that even during, say, the Tusk and Mirage tours, there was more than one extra guy playing something or other. Ray Lindsey, of course, playing rhythm guitar on Second Hand News, Gypsy, and Go Your Own Way. Jeff Sova played a tape of all that Dodger Stadium noise on Tusk and also played an Oberheim or something to simulate some brass (it didn’t sound like brass back then—it sounded like a synthesizer saw wave). Sova also played a synth pad on Hold Me in 1982. And Tony Todaro played drums on his own kit on Tusk in 1980—you could see him in silhouette playing behind Mick at the Hollywood Bowl.

But these guys didn’t swamp the show by any means, or detract any attention from the four main instrumentalists. So, yes, the nonsense started in 1987 with digital instrumentation. Remember Mick’s nonsense on World Turning that year with the Atari vest? I doubt he was triggering absolutely everything we heard—which sounded like a film soundtrack orchestra: swelling strings and brass, Mick’s digitized shouting, the percussive stuff from him tapping his vest, etc. Dan Garfield added all sorts of stuff offstage to most of the set, including Seven Wonders, Gold Dust Woman, Everywhere, and Little Lies. A few years afterward, he even sold his rig and modules on eBay.

This past year’s tour was ridiculous on that front. Weren’t there something like 14 people onstage? One of the reviews in the paper even called them out on it. It was certainly the first time that Fleetwood Mac ever played with two Hammond B3s live. Why on earth . . . ?! Why does any live outfit need two B3s?
I was going to mention that. I watched the Tusk doc last night, and was going to mention the CHEESY "horn" parts he was playing during Tusk. I'd call it more like a flute sound. Is that the best horn sound keys could get back then?

I was beginning to play keyboards by 1987, but I was POOR, and a Rhodes and some Korg synth(it's been so long now, I can't remember what model) was about the best I could afford. Wish I had that Rhodes now! I sold it for $100(I paid $400) to a friend. They're going for about 2K now.

Mick's Vesturbation was just about the dumbest thing the band ever did, live.

Really, I see the need for a second guitar and a second key player(or ONE that does both[Brett]).

Two B3's are needed, because they need someone who can actually still play one. Sorry, Christine is showing the effects of being a senior citizen.

As easy as it it to mock the 14 people on stage, the Eagles do it, too. Two non member key players, 4 horns, and an extra drummer. Extra guitar player, too, if you count Steuart as a non member. And I'm still leaving out Deacon and Vince Gill(but of course that's an unusual situation, because of Glenn's death).
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  #66  
Old 10-29-2019, 05:30 PM
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forgive my musicianship ignorance, but why do they need a backup drummer? is it just that Mick gets fatigued and someone else is carrying the actual physical load of banging away on certain songs? The early rumours5 tours certainly didn't have thin sounding drums.

Is john the only one who doesn't have a backup player on his instrument, or is there a bass player now too?
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  #67  
Old 10-29-2019, 05:44 PM
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I do agree that some of the backing musicians is a bit extreme. I don't think they needed 3 back up singers in 1987 but Stevie had 3 of them on her RAL tour so I guess she could not pick who stayed home. The additional percussionist does add a neat layer to the songs live.
I may be in the minority of what I am going to say. As much as I wish Lindsey stayed to tour during Tango and I missed him, I much preferred the Tango Tour and BTM tour compared to the Dance. Its not about Lindsey at all but the sound. By 1997 technology really changed the way bands sound live. Gone was arena rock by the Mac and their live sound had changed to a very studio-esque sound. Call me old fashioned but I love and miss the arena rock sound. For example, LOVED Chris cranking up the organ keyboards for Say You Love Me during the Tusk tour. For On With The Show, it was a pre-programmed type of thing that Chris needed to learn how to manipulate it live. I remember one show had several false starts to Say You Love Me because of this new fangled piece of technology. The Chain and Sisters really ROCKED during that era. Today is a very technical sound which I bet most appreciate. I miss the arena rock sound of not trying to sound like the record.
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  #68  
Old 10-29-2019, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Macfan4life View Post
I do agree that some of the backing musicians is a bit extreme. I don't think they needed 3 back up singers in 1987 but Stevie had 3 of them on her RAL tour so I guess she could not pick who stayed home. The additional percussionist does add a neat layer to the songs live.
I may be in the minority of what I am going to say. As much as I wish Lindsey stayed to tour during Tango and I missed him, I much preferred the Tango Tour and BTM tour compared to the Dance. Its not about Lindsey at all but the sound. By 1997 technology really changed the way bands sound live. Gone was arena rock by the Mac and their live sound had changed to a very studio-esque sound. Call me old fashioned but I love and miss the arena rock sound. For example, LOVED Chris cranking up the organ keyboards for Say You Love Me during the Tusk tour. For On With The Show, it was a pre-programmed type of thing that Chris needed to learn how to manipulate it live. I remember one show had several false starts to Say You Love Me because of this new fangled piece of technology. The Chain and Sisters really ROCKED during that era. Today is a very technical sound which I bet most appreciate. I miss the arena rock sound of not trying to sound like the record.
I agree. It was much better THEN, warts and all. No need for a gigantic wall of sound. Just go out there and do your best! It's far more intimate that way.

During the second show of BuckVie(Nashville), they were starting a song, and apparently the wrong keyboard sound was selected, and they had to stop the song and start over....but she didn't know how to change it, so the keyboard tech had to come out and change it for her. Which was surprising, because she was barely playing anything anyway. Mostly just holding organ chords. Hold Me piano part was OBVIOUSLY programmed. Her hands weren't moving anything like they should have been for it. I do wonder which is her bigger issue, mental or physical? Mind is slipping a bit, or arthritis? Perhaps a combination...
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  #69  
Old 10-30-2019, 05:51 AM
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I agree. It was much better THEN, warts and all. No need for a gigantic wall of sound. Just go out there and do your best! It's far more intimate that way.

During the second show of BuckVie(Nashville), they were starting a song, and apparently the wrong keyboard sound was selected, and they had to stop the song and start over....but she didn't know how to change it, so the keyboard tech had to come out and change it for her. Which was surprising, because she was barely playing anything anyway. Mostly just holding organ chords. Hold Me piano part was OBVIOUSLY programmed. Her hands weren't moving anything like they should have been for it. I do wonder which is her bigger issue, mental or physical? Mind is slipping a bit, or arthritis? Perhaps a combination...
What you describe is the next generation of technology. The first was the additional musicians, then technology lost the big arena rock sound, and yes now there are pre-programmed tracks and even pre-recorded vocal tracks.

I drive myself crazy because I love Lindsey and love his solo shows and music. I think Rick and Billy were horrible singers and lack luster guitar playing who played too conservative. Having said that, I think the BTM/Farewell tour of the Mac was one of the best Mac concerts ever. On with the show was incredible just for the fact Christine came back as she swore she would never do. But musically I just loved the sound better in 87/90.
Now what I said should make no sense at all but its how I feel. It makes me feel guilty a bit.
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  #70  
Old 10-30-2019, 10:45 AM
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What you describe is the next generation of technology. The first was the additional musicians, then technology lost the big arena rock sound, and yes now there are pre-programmed tracks and even pre-recorded vocal tracks.

I drive myself crazy because I love Lindsey and love his solo shows and music. I think Rick and Billy were horrible singers and lack luster guitar playing who played too conservative. Having said that, I think the BTM/Farewell tour of the Mac was one of the best Mac concerts ever. On with the show was incredible just for the fact Christine came back as she swore she would never do. But musically I just loved the sound better in 87/90.
Now what I said should make no sense at all but its how I feel. It makes me feel guilty a bit.
I hate the tracks, but everyone does it now. I do sound for a bunch of new country acts, and 9 out of 10 play with tracks now.

I think the half the reason most performers went to using "in ear monitors" was to hide the fact that they're using tracks. You can't have the tracks blaring out of a monitor in a club....too obvious.

It bugged the sh*t out of me seeing Lindsey solo, playing along with his karaoke machine. Hire a damned drummer and bass player, and get by like that. NO KARAOKE, PLEASE!

For me, Mirage was their peak, live. The peak of their voices, their looks, and their energy. And it was before the Fleetwood Mac Orchestra. And let's be honest....that's really(Tango, and the orchestra) when the old goat began gaining power in the group.

Christine coming back was a dream come true, and looking back now, THAT should have been the end of their story. Not firing Lindsey, hiring Neil and Hobo Joe to take his place.
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  #71  
Old 10-31-2019, 02:31 PM
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forgive my musicianship ignorance, but why do they need a backup drummer? is it just that Mick gets fatigued and someone else is carrying the actual physical load of banging away on certain songs?
In that particular case—performing Tusk on the 1979–80 tour—I think it was a matter of beefing up the drum beat. When a second person is playing, even a simple beat like Tusk, there is a slight but audible delay effect created by the two drummers playing the same thing. It creates a broader, more expansive “chorus” effect that can sound like Armageddon. It also looks really cool and eerie to silhouette the second drummer behind a screen and throw different colors up on the screen. So I think show business was the reason.

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For me, Mirage was their peak, live. The peak of their voices, their looks, and their energy.
I loved the way they played most of the set that year, especially Second Hand News, The Chain, Dreams, Rhiannon, Brown Eyes, Eyes of the World, Hold Me, Sara, and Sisters of the Moon. But I still regard the final month of the 1980 tour as the all-time peak for both performance and stage engineering. Those gargantuan jams—The Chain, What Makes You Think You're the One?, Not That Funny, World Turning, Go Your Own Way—were like fireworks going off one minute and daffy sojourns into insanity the next.
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Old 10-31-2019, 02:50 PM
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I love Tusk. I love how Christine describes it as so "underproduced." Is that not the perfect word to describe it? Its hard to explain so I thought she nailed it with that one word description.
Lindsey sure went out of his way to try and make it the least commercial project ever.
Double album, album cover, underproduced, track listing, and yes many of his songs.

I sometimes wonder if Lindsey had compromised with the band and made a 1 disc album that limited some of the album's oddities what it would have sounded like.

I agree Homer. I think the lead single should have been Think About Me. Its the most traditional FM song ever and could have easily been on Rumours. Tusk (song) is a FM and Lindsey concert staple but I never ever hear it on the radio. Classic rock radio pretends it does not exist even though it was a top 10 single.

Actually, I don't think underproduced is the right term. Lindsey wanted a less polished sound, but a whole lot of deliberate production and effort went into making the record sound the way it does. I think it's a very produced album that sounds polished where it needs to and a little raw where it needs to.
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Old 10-31-2019, 11:12 PM
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Actually, I don't think underproduced is the right term. Lindsey wanted a less polished sound, but a whole lot of deliberate production and effort went into making the record sound the way it does. I think it's a very produced album that sounds polished where it needs to and a little raw where it needs to.
Agree. hence, a year in the studio. ok maybe not all of that was actual WORK time, but nonetheless....
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Old 11-02-2019, 03:32 AM
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Actually, I don't think underproduced is the right term. Lindsey wanted a less polished sound, but a whole lot of deliberate production and effort went into making the record sound the way it does. I think it's a very produced album that sounds polished where it needs to and a little raw where it needs to.
Well that was Christine's description and I sort of agree. Is not a raw or organic sound underproduced? I think everyone has the same feeling but different word to describe it. They spent a long time in the studio because they had so much material It was 2 albums and not one. My comment was about how many of us wanted a more cohesive sound with all the members. Leaving backing vocals out and leaving many songs like Honey Hi or Never Make Me cry almost sound like demos. IMHO that is the purest example of underproduced. I also think Over and Over is so raw and underproduced that if it appeared on any other Mac album it would have been super polished. The Mac sort of went overboard with overdubs on Mirage. Christine and I don't see it as a negative term as you may see it. Its neutral. Over-produced does not mean overly commercial either. IMHO when you leave tracks in their organic or raw form, its the definition of under produced. The amount of time on the double album has nothing to do with the production value. We don't mean underproduced as being less effort. I think you are saying Lindsey over produced the album to purposely make it sound less polished?
I guess this conversation is very typical when discussing Tusk because it never fits into any category. One of my biggest regrets in life is not asking Lindsey a quick question during the meet and greet about the Tusk tracking being purposely incohesive as many allege happened. Others disagree with that and if you check the front page of this forum, this question is pending to Richard since 2016 when he mentioned about a Q & A session.
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  #75  
Old 11-02-2019, 07:20 PM
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IMHO when you leave tracks in their organic or raw form, its the definition of under produced. The amount of time on the double album has nothing to do with the production value. We don't mean underproduced as being less effort. I think you are saying Lindsey over produced the album to purposely make it sound less polished?
Yes that's what I and many others mean when we say it is a highly produced album. They didn't leave the songs in a raw state meaning that they went in and did some rough takes and then put those out. Make no mistake everything on there is deliberate and polished. They recorded a lot of backing vocals and instrumental tracks and Lindsey played around with how many to layer in (or not). And even on the songs that you THINK are really minimalist and only have a couple things on them it's not the case. It's hard to imagine but it takes a lot of layers to sound like it's only a few. It's like women who you'd swear aren't wearing any makeup at all and just look naturally flawless, when in reality there are layers and layers of foundation and contouring and highlighter and 6 shades of neutral eyeshadow and eyeliner that look like she's wearing no eye make up at all.
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