Honestly, now that Obama is the nominee........

[LukeA]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Actually, Hillary was pushing for Michigan to revote with Obama on the ticket - he refused, likely because he knew he'd lose Ditto with Florida. So much for every vote counts, not to mention pissing off two huge electoral states that often swing elections.

Florida & Michigan broke the rules, and they have to live with the consequences. Its as cut and dry as anything can be. Call it what it is- the Democratic party shooting itself in the foot once again.

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I'm objective & mature enough to call a spade a spade and not make an argument for/against a candidate in the process.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC

I knew you were a Hugh Jackman fan.

Or Eric Bana:

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by LukeA

Florida & Michigan broke the rules, and they have to live with the consequences. Its as cut and dry as anything can be. Call it what it is- the Democratic party shooting itself in the foot once again.

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I'm objective & mature enough to call a spade a spade and not make an argument for/against a candidate in the process.

1. Se Herija's post above for an explanation of how the rules were selectively applied.

2. I agree that if FL and MI knew the consequences and the R's had no hand in it (see above), then the hell with them.

3. The logic of #2 likely will result in the D's losing those states. The D's clearly knew that consequence when then ruled the first and second times.

4. I think the far better result would have been to allow FL and MI to revote with everyone on the ballot, thereby allowing all voices to be heard.

These arguments are wildly different than supporting on candidate over another and I'd make the same argument if W had been the victim.

[trackaghost]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I say America is the undisputed leader of the world because that is a fact. What other country provides the aid America does? Who do nations run to first? Who usually is first to provide aid? What other country leads like America does? So, factually, I am correct. If not - let's see the proof. So, whether people see that as arrogant is beside my point here. Though, I made the point earlier that I think people resent America for having that position. Is it the saying of it that pisses people off or seems arrogant - I guess so.

In the end, I think at times that America would be better off stopping all aid and going back to isolationism. Then, who would hate us. Likely, I suggest, even more people. So, America cannot win for losing so to speak.

Here is a cool article on the progession of America's leadership in the world:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/6807/wleader.html

Honestly Strand, you don't need to treat me like an idiot by posting articles. I'm not disputing America's standing in the world, that would be foolish, it's the superiority complex that goes along with it. Personally I believe as one of the richest nations in the world the US (and the UK) has a duty to do those things.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by trackaghost

Honestly Strand, you don't need to treat me like an idiot by posting articles. I'm not disputing America's standing in the world, that would be foolish, it's the superiority complex that goes along with it. Personally I believe as one of the richest nations in the world the US (and the UK) has a duty to do those things.

I did not think I was treating you as an idiot (which I think you are not BTW)

I posted that article (as I always do) because it supported my point. I was not talking about the thing you call the superiority complex. I do not really agree with that notion 100% in that I think anytime someone says America is the world leader (or whatever) some people assume it is said with that superior tone - I was explainig that I was saying it matter of factly. That is all.

Sorry for any offense.

I also agree that the richest nation has an obligation and I submit we meet that obligation in both public and personal donations and time. I mean if it were not for America, most of Europe would be speaking German (either in 1918 or 1941) Yet, when I say that fact, people hate it. What they should be is thankful

[estranged4life]

Hmmm, I wonder if I can auction off the right to my vote on eBay to the STUPID party who has enough $$$$ to secure my WORTHLESS vote???

With the main choices these days for presiDUNCE of the United States of Greed - it is almost like being asked (Repeatedly) if you want a scoop of the TWO only available flavors of ice cream, Chocolate or Vanilla...Me myself, being an INDEPENDENT voter in this joke country where only Demo-Gods and reTHUGblicans matter, I prefer Butter Pecan because the other two flavors were only good when I didn't know OTHER FLAVORS existed.

Brian "Baskin Robbins" j.

[The Catdancer]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

I did not think I was treating you as an idiot (which I think you are not BTW)

I posted that article (as I always do) because it supported my point. I was not talking about the thing you call the superiority complex. I do not really agree with that notion 100% in that I think anytime someone says America is the world leader (or whatever) some people assume it is said with that superior tone - I was explainig that I was saying it matter of factly. That is all.

Sorry for any offense.

I also agree that the richest nation has an obligation and I submit we meet that obligation in both public and personal donations and time. I mean if it were not for America, most of Europe would be speaking German (either in 1918 or 1941) Yet, when I say that fact, people hate it. What they should be is thankful

Have to correct you there, Strand. True, the Americans liberated Europe along with the Canadians and the Brits. My Grandparents and my parents both lived through the wars and I grew up listening to their stories. It wasn't just the Americans in WW2. I don't think people hate the fact that you guys liberated Europe, but they hate the fact you don't give any other country credit.

[rubytuesday]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

II mean if it were not for America, most of Europe would be speaking German (either in 1918 or 1941) Yet, when I say that fact, people hate it. What they should be is thankful

wow! What the other person said! I mean do you even realise that D-Day involved 5 beaches, 2 American, 2 British and 1 Canadian. Anyway most of Europe would be speaking german if it wasn't for the USSR but I've never heard a Russian recite that rubbish, that I should be grateful to them. Nobody seems to give them credit but they don't go around asking for it like Americans seem to.

[strandinthewind]

England (which included most of Canada), Russia, and France were losing the war. The US and her 12,000,000 + troops stepped in and the tide turned. I get that it was a gbroup effort. But, clearly the injection of the US' armed forces turned the tide. But, you are correct in saying that it was not just the US not matter how much the US' help was needed.

But, I readily give it up for Canada for joining the war in 39. It took a big sac becasue Canada was uprepared for war. It had a regular army of 4500 men, augmented by 51,000 partly-trained reservists, possessed virtually no modern equipment, the air force had fewer than 20 modern combat aircraft while the navy’s combat potential consisted of only six destroyers, the smallest class of ocean-going warships. So, kudos to that brave, brave country!!!!!!!! I do not slight them at all.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by rubytuesday

wow! What the other person said! I mean do you even realise that D-Day involved 5 beaches, 2 American, 2 British and 1 Canadian. Anyway most of Europe would be speaking german if it wasn't for the USSR but I've never heard a Russian recite that rubbish, that I should be grateful to them. Nobody seems to give them credit but they don't go around asking for it like Americans seem to.

Next time we should opt out - Again, it was a group effort, but without the US, the defeats likely would have continued. If you really think the entry of the US in WWII (and WWI for that matter) did not turn the tide and allow Europe and Southern Asia to obtain a victory, then I suggest you are re-writing history.

And - Stalin was such a great guy With all due respect, the time period from 1945 - 1987ish was hardly a time for Russians to speak freely about anything. But, yes, Russia (like the other allies) played a significant part in WWII, at least on the Eastern Front. But, yes, you should be thanking Russia as well, though likely not for the Iron Curtain which fell shortly thereafter.

I am just curious, do you not acknowledge that America is a world leader (likely the largest) and that Amercia does huge acts of charity across the globe. Or is it just that I am acknowledging that fact that bugs you?

[rubytuesday]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Next time we should opt out - Again, it was a group effort, but without the US, the defeats likely would have continued. If you really think the entry of the US in WWII (and WWI for that matter) did not turn the tide and allow Europe and Southern Asia to obtain a victory, then I suggest you are re-writing history.

And - Stalin was such a great guy With all due respect, the time period from 1945 - 1987ish was hardly a time for Russians to speak freely about anything. But, yes, Russia (like the other allies) played a significant part in WWII, at least on the Eastern Front. But, yes, you should be thanking Russia as well, though likely not for the Iron Curtain which fell shortly thereafter.


I am just curious, do you not acknowledge that America is a world leader (likely the largest) and that Amercia does huge acts of charity across the globe. Or is it just that I am acknowledging that fact that bugs you?

Course I do but you can't claim everything. So you're giving in to say that yes Russia played a significant part but you won't back down that it's due to America that we're all free of Nazi's? Come on. Russia was up at 4am, digging the path,pouring the cement, laying the bricks, and America comes along in the early hours of midday and sweeps through helping to finish off what Russia simply didn't have the numbers to do. Nobody is denying what America did but it this claim that we'd all be speaking German like we owe America something when if you look at it from outside of an American perspective then you'd see how we don't owe anything or if we do we owe numerous nations who don't go around tooting there own horn like americans do.

It's like in cricket when someone gets caught out they are acknowledged as having performed their task perfectly but it's the bowler that is said to have taken the wicket 'cause they set up the shot. You're acting like you not only took the wicket but took out the whole team 'cause you caught another bowler's ball. And then you wonder why you're booed off the field.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by rubytuesday

. . . So you're giving in to say that yes Russia played a significant part but you won't back down that it's due to America that we're all free of Nazi's? Come on. Russia was up at 4am, digging the path,pouring the cement, laying the bricks, and America comes along in the early hours of midday and sweeps through helping to finish off what Russia simply didn't have the numbers to do. Nobody is denying what America did but it this claim that we'd all be speaking German like we owe America something when if you look at it from outside of an American perspective then you'd see how we don't owe anything or if we do we owe numerous nations who don't go around tooting there own horn like americans do.

It's like in cricket when someone gets caught out they are acknowledged as having performed their task perfectly but it's the bowler that is said to have taken the wicket 'cause they set up the shot. You're acting like you not only took the wicket but took out the whole team 'cause you caught another bowler's ball. And then you wonder why you're booed off the field.

Once again, the allies, as a whole were failing, though Russia was, for the most part, finally holding her own on the Eastern Front, which was only one part of the war.

The fact remains that if America and her millions of troops had not fought in Europe, Germany would have conquered France (he sort of had already) and likely England, which he was bombing to bits in The Blitz (7th September 1940 to New Year's Day 1941). Remember, nothing going on in Europe at that time was really any of America's concern, though Hitler was an evil person. America's beef was with Japan. Remember, Anerica declared war on Japan on December 8, 1941. On December 11, Hitler and Mussolini declared war on America and the U.S. Congress responded in kind on December 11,1941. I just do not see how you can argue that the infusion of the US' 12 million + troops did not turn the tide and save the day

So, yes, Europe does owe America a "thank you" and they often give it. Also, I do not see America as a nation constantly asking for it. I brought it up in the context of this thread to demonstrate that America is a significant world presence. Interestingly, Russia emerged from WWII as a superpower as well, but since, like France, has mostly lost it. England and America are, for the moment, the only true super powers in the sense that they provide aid and try, for the most part, to keep the peace, with the possible exception of Iraq. I suppose most of the world now works through the UN, which is scary considering how corrupt we learned that institution is/was.

[rubytuesday]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

The fact remains that if America and her millions of troops had not fought in Europe, Germany would have conquered France (he sort of had already) and likely England, which he was bombing to bits in The Blitz (7th September 1940 to New Year's Day 1941). Remember, nothing going on in Europe at that time was really any of America's concern, though Hitler was an evil person. America's beef was with Japan. Remember, Anerica declared war on Japan on December 8, 1941. On December 11, Hitler and Mussolini declared war on America and the U.S. Congress responded in kind on December 11,1941. I just do not see how you can argue that the infusion of the US' 12 million + troops did not turn the tide and save the day

You can replace that with the USSR and again say that Germany would have conquered Europe. The point being that we're not being constantly reminded of how great they are by Russians tooting their own horn.

Remember, nothing going on in Europe at that time was really any of America's concern, though Hitler was an evil person. America's beef was with Japan.

Exactly! So who was there fighting Germany? The invisible empire? America entered the film at the end and hurled it across the finish line but still always acts like it had the starring role, like it wasn't all set up for them. If america was fighting a war with whatever country you like for years then finally asked for support from another direction to combine and take down the enemy, there's no way america would let that other country dance about like they were heroes of the world we'd always be reminded of how it was america's war and their effort.

Fine whatever. WWII was betweeen Germany and the USA, nothing happened before then and the good old usa saved the world.

btw you don't need to explain what the blitz is to a british person.

[strandinthewind]

^^^

Western Europe was losing the war. Russia was holding its own on the Eastern Front, but showed no real interest in liberating France or saving England. In many ways it could not because something like 30 million people died on the Eastern Front and the Eastern Front involved more land combat than all other World War II theatres combined. Also, Russia was attacked by Hitler (Lebensraum in the East), the US was not.

In the end, the Russians and all the allies fought bravely and should be commended. By the same token, the US should also be commended for infusing the battle (which was being lost of the Western Front) with over ten million troops and powerful machinery. How is it a bad thing to acknowledge that?

Interestingly, the two countries with the most deaths were China - 3,800,000 military deaths and 16,200,000 civilian deaths, for a total of 20,000,000 . That is horrifying. Ditto for the U.S.S.R., with 10,700,000 military deaths, 11,400,000 civilian deaths, 1,000,000 Jewish Holocaust deaths , for a total of 23,100,000 dead. Those numbers sort of make todays "wars" seem irrelevant, which is equally as horrifying.

Also, I was noting the time line for the blitz was before the Americans came in.

[DavidMn]

Originally Posted by David

Americans know how to grill a Porterhouse steak outdoors on the grill. Aussies do, too. But Europeans have it all wrong.

Damn, eating that would be almost better than sex.. Almost