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  #76  
Old 04-16-2004, 04:30 PM
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Even though Stevie had way more solo hits, Chris had way more Mac hits, and, afaik, no humongous coke problem. Rolling Stone's top moneymaker's list had her at #35, with 24 million(those #s are from memory, so don't ride my butt if I'm off by a number).
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I still think they didn't have any huge success because the three core songwriters aren't together anymore. That's the main reason anyway.
Yep. The balancing factor is gone. I hope her new album kicks major ass.
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  #77  
Old 04-16-2004, 04:35 PM
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Here we go again and again and again.....it's always this way.

There's a heavy implication from some that if you prefer Stevie's songs, then you aren't very smart and just don't "get it", and then from still others that if you prefer Lindsey's songs then you are an egghead just wanting to besmerch The Goddess that is La Nicks.

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  #78  
Old 04-16-2004, 05:13 PM
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Post The generic Nicks bashing ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Stew
Imagine, if you will, if fans said that the only good parts about Lindsey's songs, are Stevie's backing vocals.
I imagine you'd find that statement to be rather incredulous and akin to blasphemy.
And how different is that from the opinions of certain Nicksfans? Isn’t “Go Your Own Way” their favourite Lindsey song anyway? There’s this woman in there who has pretty loud vocals. Wouldn’t that have something to do with it, along with the fact that it’s THE Lindsey song to be connected with Stevie’s drama game?

Stevie sings on 30% of Lindsey’s Fleetwood Mac songs. So if that makes the rest derivative crap for some then phooey. You didn’t say that, it’s my imagination running free again.

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Lindsey is "the chief architect of the Fleetwood Mac sound," no doubt about it, but I think it's unfair to give either him or Stevie credit for an entire half of the appeal of the others' music.
Just as it is unfair to say that Fleetwood Mac equals Stevie Nicks. ‘S right.

The reason as to why I give Lindsey 50% of the credit is because of the overall conception of sound he has.

Pet Sounds is considered Brian Wilson’s album even though the other Beach Boys are singing on it and there’s plenty of legendary studio musicians, such as Hal Blaine, playing on it. While there was significant outside influence for the album there always needed to be the main creative force, the one who initiated most of it.

Now Fleetwood Mac is a band, I’m not going to deny that. That’s a big part of their appeal. But even so I could see Lindsey throwing Mick, John and Chris out of the instrumental picture in some of the tracks and putting on the OOTC treatments (c’mon Gerald, just complain about the drum sound yet again ).

Not to mention that the three veterans of the band always considered themselves as the rhythm section. Remember what David wrote?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Christine was never Keith Emerson or Billy Joel. Her keyboards on FM albums didn't occupy a central place like the playing of those guys. In fact, the parts she recorded on most of the songs were generally a subtle addition to the rhythm, not a lavish piano arrangement in the spotlight. Even on "Songbird," you could argue (& I do) that the piano arrangement & performance are a subdued rhythm guitar effect (which helps it blend so nicely with the actual acoustic guitar on the track).
I agree with that one. And I also think that Chris very often favoured non-intrusive keyboard tones. She never used anything harsh, she never wanted to be flashy. It wasn’t her thing and I respect her for that, BUT if it had been just her performing the songs on a keyboard I might have missed out on FM altogether. I don’t fall for her playing that much because it doesn’t grab me by the neck and demand my attention, it rather just sits there and waits for me to pay attention to it. Yes, maybe I’m just a callow youngster. But the reason I first latched on to “Don’t Stop” wasn’t because it’s a well-written blues shuffle, it was because of that guitar which kicks my butt out of my bed in the morning. The same goes for “YMLF”, “Oh Daddy”, “Over My Head”, etc. LB isn’t afraid of the flash in the instrumental area but he also knows the subtleties very well.

So if we take the UK section of the Rumours line-up as “just a rhythm section” (blasphemy, I know) then I don’t think it was their job to constantly grab the common listeners’ attention. They provided the solid backbone, and I think it’s mainly the musicians who will appreciate their contributions over the Americans. Now the persons who grab the attention of the common listeners are Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks.

I’ve said it before, even though I find Stevie an outstanding vocalist her solo music leaves something to be desired. It is essentially an inferior, mainstreamisized take on the sound that she first tried out with Fleetwood Mac. That’s why I think her solo career is still in Fleetwood Mac’s shadow, just because she’s the one who clings to the old perceptions of FM the most.

‘S all my opinion and has been discussed to the point until your eyes have started to bleed.

But for me half of the emotion on a Nickssong as done by FM often comes from Lindsey Buckingham’s guitars. It’s those that most obviously separate it from the muck that was floating around the charts at the time because the subtleties of the rhythm section can be easily ignored.

Quote:
The same goes for Christine.
And I don’t think Christine’s songs are that much more devoid of Lindsey’s influence.

I will never deny that CM is the best songwriter of the band in the classic sense and I will never deny her own ideas for her own keyboard parts.

She was supposedly the one in the band who was the most against experimental tendencies, however, and I fear that if Lindsey wasn’t playing on her tracks I might have thought she was just another inferior version of Carole King.

When I listen to the piano demo of “Never Make Me Cry”, for instance, I think it’s a good song with heartfelt emotions. But when I listen to the final take on Tusk, the lyrical meaning changes completely when that backing track sounds like it’s a huge, empty, distant hum. The mix of intimacy (in Chris’ vocals) and distance is what makes that track heartbreaking for me.

That’s what I think anyway. I don’t think it’s that dubious to call Rumours et al. Lindsey Buckingham’s albums. It’s the same as focusing on “Peter Green’s Fleetwood Mac” when the band featured two other skilled singer-songwriter-instrumentalists. And it’s the same to those Nicksfans who latch on to Stevie’s harmonies in other people’s songs. Now that the reissues came out some people seemed to start loving tracks they had previously only liked because of Stevie’s vocals having been added to the Rumours songs.

Putting the other band member over the other is unfair, definitely. And I don’t think pitting the songwriters against each other is terribly wise, especially when you consider that they have different styles.

All I was trying to establish here was that there’s a valid reason to respect Lindsey Buckingham’s work to the extent that some of the stubborn Buckheads are doing it. Those guitars and arrangements can mean as much as anything Stevie does in her songs. They do that to me, at least.

And considering the fact that many people who listen to rock and roll still focus on the singer or the guitarist and not the rhythm section, then there’s nothing surprising in this “injust LB-worshipping”. IMO, of course.

Now let’s just wait ‘til the Nicksheads and the McVie troupe get to this.
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  #79  
Old 04-16-2004, 05:14 PM
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Sharon, I thought you were content with being a FOLAS and didn’t even want to try to change anything here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sulamith
There's a heavy implication from some that if you prefer Stevie's songs, then you aren't very smart and just don't "get it"…
I do not wish to imply that at all. What I’ve been trying to do is to shatter the common belief that Stevie is the deep one and Lindsey is the shallow popmeister who just likes being weird for weird’s sake.

There is nothing inaccessible in Lindsey’s work and no high-brow attitude, at least I haven’t detected any. And I’m not trying to enforce something like that at all.

“Family Man” as an example here again; the lyrics stink to high heaven, yes. But he wouldn’t put those weak lyrics to a final track if he didn’t deem them appropriate.

If you sang those lyrics in an overtly serious tone then I would hate it. But put them through the voice treatments and it’s a pure pop perversion according to the fine traditions of the Beach Boys’ Love You album.

There’s lots of other layers in there than the one that strikes most people’s ear first. But it doesn’t mean that Lindsey’s more artistic and deeper than Stevie. They do their things in different ways and still move me almost equally.

They both have songs that can be instantly appealing and they both have songs that can be esoteric and take a while to get used to but that’s the great thing about their work.

So that’s why I won’t buy into that aspect of the fight at all, in spite of my incessant criticisms.

I need them both in my life, period.
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Old 04-16-2004, 05:29 PM
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  #80  
Old 04-16-2004, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by face of glass

Now Fleetwood Mac is a band, I’m not going to deny that. That’s a big part of their appeal. But even so I could see Lindsey throwing Mick, John and Chris out of the instrumental picture in some of the tracks and putting on the OOTC treatments (c’mon Gerald, just complain about the drum sound yet again ).

Not to mention that the three veterans of the band always considered themselves as the rhythm section.
back.

I just tend to disagree, The GOS-songs just have something sparkling going on, so are stevie's on SYW, due to the tremendous interaction between the three instrumentalists. Illume, RTTG, EFO, Come, Miranda, with the OOTC-treatment? I don't see it. not without losing a lot of the energy. Or Linds should buy Mick's Sonic Foundry-sample-CD.
But then again: Think of John's contributions on the whole album. Lindsey has NEVER put in such killerbasslines on solo-albums as john did this time.

Hey, He's my hero, but we have to keep ourselves sharp and critical!
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Old 04-16-2004, 05:49 PM
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  #81  
Old 04-16-2004, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarneVaca
AAaaaargggghhhh... It's a fabulous song. Some of the best drumming Mick's ever done is on that song. And the layered guitar sounds are brilliant, not to mentioned the anguished vocals. This is sheer brilliance.
"Not That Funny" is really, really, REALLY bad.... I would almost categorize it as unlistenable. That and "I Know I'm Not Wrong" are staaaanky!
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Old 04-16-2004, 06:23 PM
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  #82  
Old 04-16-2004, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dontlookdown
Without a question, this is Lindsey's project - without him, this band would be worthless today. Thank God for Lindsey Buckingham - some how, he managed to bring my favorite band back to life and prevented them from becoming an embarrasing nostalgia act.
Well, I don't think he prevented them from becoming an embarrassing nostalgia act (witness "Time"), as much as brought them back from the dinosaur record dust bins. Then again, Fleetwood Mac has never had the same level of loserdom as bands like Chicago, REO Speedwagon, and Styx

I really like "Behind the Mask" and still to this day think it's very underrated.
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  #83  
Old 04-16-2004, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by face of glass
And how different is that from the opinions of certain Nicksfans? Isn’t “Go Your Own Way” their favourite Lindsey song anyway? There’s this woman in there who has pretty loud vocals. Wouldn’t that have something to do with it, along with the fact that it’s THE Lindsey song to be connected with Stevie’s drama game?
In all actuality, I can barely hear Stevie on "Go Your Own Way."
On the live versions, certainly... but not on the album version. The backing vocals are so homogenized, that you can't make out ANY of the three vocalists (excepting Lindsey's lead vocal over top).
So if fans cite that as a favorite based on Stevie's backing vocals, then they must have far better hearing than I do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by face of glass
Just as it is unfair to say that Fleetwood Mac equals Stevie Nicks. ‘S right.

The reason as to why I give Lindsey 50% of the credit is because of the overall conception of sound he has.
It's absolutely unfair to give Stevie all of the credit for the band's success.
Lindsey is the studio wizard behind their sound (though certainly not belittling Ken Caillat and Richard Dashut's hand in that), Christine has been the one responsible for most of their biggest radio hits, and Stevie's been the one whose charisma has largely been responsible for Fleetwood Mac's bankable identity.

But to give any one of them HALF of the credit for the band's success is utterly unfair.
Quote:
Originally Posted by face of glass
I’ve said it before, even though I find Stevie an outstanding vocalist her solo music leaves something to be desired. It is essentially an inferior, mainstreamisized take on the sound that she first tried out with Fleetwood Mac. That’s why I think her solo career is still in Fleetwood Mac’s shadow, just because she’s the one who clings to the old perceptions of FM the most.
Ironically, the reason Fleetwood Mac has often been considered "uncool" by the masses, is that their sound is considered woefully mainstream, and certainly Stevie isn't the only one who would be responsible for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by face of glass
‘S all my opinion and has been discussed to the point until your eyes have started to bleed.

But for me half of the emotion on a Nickssong as done by FM often comes from Lindsey Buckingham’s guitars. It’s those that most obviously separate it from the muck that was floating around the charts at the time because the subtleties of the rhythm section can be easily ignored.

I don’t think it’s that dubious to call Rumours et al. Lindsey Buckingham’s albums. It’s the same as focusing on “Peter Green’s Fleetwood Mac” when the band featured two other skilled singer-songwriter-instrumentalists. And it’s the same to those Nicksfans who latch on to Stevie’s harmonies in other people’s songs. Now that the reissues came out some people seemed to start loving tracks they had previously only liked because of Stevie’s vocals having been added to the Rumours songs.

Putting the other band member over the other is unfair, definitely. And I don’t think pitting the songwriters against each other is terribly wise, especially when you consider that they have different styles.

All I was trying to establish here was that there’s a valid reason to respect Lindsey Buckingham’s work to the extent that some of the stubborn Buckheads are doing it. Those guitars and arrangements can mean as much as anything Stevie does in her songs. They do that to me, at least.

And considering the fact that many people who listen to rock and roll still focus on the singer or the guitarist and not the rhythm section, then there’s nothing surprising in this “injust LB-worshipping”. IMO, of course.

Now let’s just wait ‘til the Nicksheads and the McVie troupe get to this.
I see a LOT of people who are generally Stevie fans, giving Lindsey a lot of credit for his talents, and his skills as both a guitarist and a producer.
He gets a lot of respect these days... which he should, and which is long overdue.

But my question is always going to be, why that has to come at the expense of the other members.

I mean, look at it this way... how many of Lindsey's biggest fans, will only begrudingly admit to liking one of Stevie's songs. And, only then, because of Lindsey's contribution to said song?
As if Stevie had nothing to do with at all.
"Lindsey made 'Gypsy' what it is."
"'Dreams' would be nothing if it weren't for Lindsey."
And so on and so on.

And how many times have we heard that Fleetwood Mac sucked after Lindsey left (a comment that folks like myself, chiliD, and David, will argue against until we're blue in the face)... implying that the band can't possibly be any good without Lindsey there to help them.
It's the same when Stevie fans make the same claim.

Really, there's really nothing wrong with having your favorite member, and loving their contribution to the band or to a particular song (Stevie's harmonies on the outtake of "Oh Daddy," for example, or Lindsey's guitar on "Gypsy," etc.)... but to say that that member is 50% responsible for a song being so good, or damn-near entirely responsible for the band's success, is a bit of a stretch. Whether it's being said by Stevie fans or Lindsey fans.

My opinion is this... if an artist's own fans don't feel confident enough in praising said artist's talents, without belittling the talents of someone else, then that's a pretty sad thing.
But that's just my opinion.
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Last edited by Johnny Stew; 04-16-2004 at 07:11 PM..
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Old 04-16-2004, 07:12 PM
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  #84  
Old 04-16-2004, 08:47 PM
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[QUOTE=face of glass]If he was truly interested in album sales, I think he’d try to make his music sound closer to what is the public idea of the typical FM sound. I think Stevie’s solo music fits into this category a lot better than Lindsey’s all-over-the-place diversity.



But he is just as interested in album sales because, he did not release his solo cd that he stated if only 300,000 ppl heard , he would of been happy with that. He didnot release his solo material as he intended it to be heard, he compromised and made it a fm album, . When you stated he doesnt compromise his songs to that fm sound on his solo material, WELL LINDSEY JUST RELEASE YOUR SOLO STUFF PLEASE. He hopped on the FM train, and there lies the compromise. when WB said lindsey we have an idea how to get your music out to a larger audience, make it a FM album. i had wished that he would of just released it as a solo lp, and then gone into the studio with fm later on, and start off fresh with both stevie and lindsey in the studio together. because now, the same is going to happen, stevie WILL release her solo album AND SHE WILL TOUR , but i think that for the next FM album they should wait until they all can work together on the songs. So it will be a full group collaboration.
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  #85  
Old 04-16-2004, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strandinthewind
I do not think Stevie would cur the tour short. I think they agreed to a 40 show first leg and then see what happens after that. So, she would be within what she agreed, etc. Certainly, that has not been the case so far on this tour.

But with the double cd, in order to not lose money , he was stateing that they would have to tour longer etc... and he couldnt take that chance that stevie wouldnt want to do more than the 40 dates. so money matters to him, just as much , whether its sales of cds. or money from touring. its all money in his pocket one way or another. if it truly didnt matter, we would be listening to GOS, and lindsey would still be living in the same house and not rebuiling , lol.
not directed at you strand.
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Old 04-16-2004, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarneVaca
I think Stevie was under the illusion that they were going to sell millions of SYW copies, whereas Lindsey seemed to be more grounded on the idea that the money would come from the tour. In that sense, he was more of a realist.


I dont think stevie felt they were going to sell millions, its a nice thought to think but, i think she meant that if this tour is successful ( from the doc) lets just go with the feeling and tour as long as we are having fun with it.
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  #87  
Old 04-16-2004, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarneVaca
I think Stevie was under the illusion that they were going to sell millions of SYW copies, whereas Lindsey seemed to be more grounded on the idea that the money would come from the tour. In that sense, he was more of a realist.

Stevie never has a problem with going out on tour , she knows what its all about and has done it with every album, plus with FM.
so touring for stevie is not an issue, its what she loves to do, too bad she has a bad hip, but i tip my hat to her for doing it, class act..


I dont think lindsey was being the realist, only when he realized that the double cd was gonna cost him money in the end, was he being realistic, when he realized if stevie didnt want to do more than 40 dates, and he couldnt risk it, then he was being realistic. Stevie was being concerned when she stated you all have families etc.... if this was a solo cd for lindsey i would say go for it , put your money where your mouth is and go for it. but in a group effort you have to consider whats best for everyone, not just what he wanted. personally if he had pulled some of these songs on syw and kept them for a solo, because he owned the masters, and just contributed a quarter of whats on syw, then i wished he had, because we would of got syw anyways and gos.
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Old 04-16-2004, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Buck
Nicks does have a family to take care of, though. Do you think she’d run the annual Arizona heart benefit and charge fans $1000 (WOW!!!!!!!!!) per ticket if she didn’t need some financial help? She’d just contribute her money (if she had a lot) to it to help the world AND her pa, more like generous upstart singer Clay Aiken is doing.

Nicks' beloved father’s been ailing for 30 years. The costs add up. Her ma’s elderly. Her brother is out of work whom she’s supporting (last job I heard he had he sold T-shirts at Buckingham’s OUT OF THE CRADLE TOUR), is married and has a family, and Nicks is putting a niece through college. And her cocaine habit, the one that bankrupted Mick Fleetwood, had left her pretty dry.

Both Buckingham’s affluent parents have passed away and left him money. He also makes money up-front with production, as well as song-writing royalties. He saved his money early on, and his investments grew exponentially. And since the documentary was made, the Buckingham’s decided on having another child (that they knew they’d have to put through college and had enough money for) and Buck bought out almost a fourth of the seats in September 2003 of Chicago’s SOUND STAGE at $150/ticket to give away free to fans. Buckingham's still very wealthy and generous!



The AHI is a benefit concert, she raised money for a good cause , and donated the proceeds. And i am sure that stevie does donate her own money as well as her time.
as for all the other facts you so stated, i would recheck some of them, lol..

and if lindsey is so well off , as he should be, then why is or was money such an issue for him in the end,, he himself, as wealthy as he may be, stated himself, that he couldnt risk it , if stevie didnt want to tour more than 40 dates, because he has a family to raise and a house to pay for. we all know stevie, had a bad drug habit, thats not secret, we all know that Mick made Mick go bankrupt, (that wasnt steviesfault) I dont know why your making money an issue as if lindsey is richer than any of the others, if he is thats great, but stevie has also been clean since the mid 80's and she has continued to tour since and do well . If anything i think stevie is involved because she loves the idea of the mac being back together, but she also has a successful solo career all along. she truly love s to be on stage entertaining its what she loves to do. as lindsey loves the studio.
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Old 04-16-2004, 09:40 PM
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I agree with Johnny abouot Go Your Own Way. On the studio version you can't hear her at all. Second Hand News would be a song that if someone said that was their favorite Lindsey then you'd have more of an argument of it's because of Stevie's background vocals and then still that could be untrue too.
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Old 04-16-2004, 09:45 PM
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Old 04-16-2004, 09:57 PM
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[QUOTE=face of glass]And how different is that from the opinions of certain Nicksfans? Isn’t “Go Your




But for me half of the emotion on a Nickssong as done by FM often comes from Lindsey Buckingham’s guitars. It’s those that most obviously separate it from the muck that was floating around the charts at the time because the subtleties of the rhythm section can be easily ignored.


wow so you must not be too much into the value of lyrics then.


also, stevie doesnt claim that her solo material is to be different from FM material.. her solo career is just another avenue to get more of her songs out there. its lindsey who claims to want to be experimental and so on and good for him, now lets just hope he puts his material out. he wants a different sound so then go for it, i do find it funny that when talking about Mixing the cd, he wants something thats sounds different for syw and i think thats great, but then when you look on ootc , hmmmmm,, who did some of your mixing linds,,,, chris lord alge, (spelling?) and ootc was his best solo material, IMO
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