What's meaner: Wrong or GYOW

[Sugar]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Gerald, that's a reference to the lines, "Do you ever wonder/do you ever hate" in The Ledge.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I am leaning toward concluding The Ledge is the most vicious song of them all. Lindsey is saying bluntly, "You're never gonna make it, baby." As if he's saying: "Hey, foggheddaboutit if you think you can go solo and be successful without me." Ouch. Even I have to admit that's pretty mean. But, hey, it's a great song to my ears nonetheless.

"What Makes You Think You're the One" pales in comparison. It's more of a sardonic, "Hey, just who the hell do you think you are? Some kind of star?" Seems to be pointing to the perceived hubris of the target subject.

Great, powerful stuff.

I never took these as references to her career. I always heard "never gonna make it baby" as a reference to her as a person. And this song is whiney, too! "You can love me baby/ but you can't walk out"...wah! And of course, she DID walk out!

And while we're on this, what do we think about "six feet under/ someone who can wait"? I mean obviously someone who is dead can "wait" but what do we think he's getting at?

I'm still going with WMYTYTO, and part of this is the delivery. Even the title! And of course the live versions of this I've heard are heart wrenching! He's just up there bleeding!

[CarneVaca]

Sugar, good point about the "six feet under" line. I just don't know what to make of it.

I thought I had read somewhere The Ledge is about Stevie. Perhaps it was speculation here on the Ledge. But it seems to fit, nyet?

Great song.

[Cammie]

WMYTYTO is a really really bitter-
sweet LB tune! Whoever it is aimed at
has hurt Lindsey really bad!!!
WRONG is about betrayal by a good friend!
The Worst...Sneaky kind that Hurts!!! Sky

[Sugar]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
I thought I had read somewhere The Ledge is about Stevie. Perhaps it was speculation here on the Ledge. But it seems to fit, nyet?

Great song.

OH yeah! I think most of Lindsey's Tusk songs about Stevie. Gotta wonder what stage of denial he was in when he wrote "They told me that I never would recover/ still some say they knew me well"!

When they're not about Stevie I suspect they are his ruminations about leaving the band (That's All For Everyone, maybe even That's Enough for Me). Once he realized he and Stevie could never go back to the way it was (even if it wasn't a matter of it being "over")I'm sure this was when Mr. "I wanna be in The Clash" started seriously thinking about jumping ship.

[jbrownsjr]

I love all these songs.

The line "someone ought to tell you what it's really all about"

that's my favorite

like, you have no idea what you're doing! you need help!

[sodascouts]

I've never thought GYOW was mean. Stevie makes a big deal out of that for nothing.

As for "Wrong" - yeah, that was mean, and we'll never know how much of Mick's book did "get it wrong." But when I watched the BTM, I thought Mick look FLATTERED. He loves to be the object of songs - how many times has he bragged "I'm the great dark wing!" I think he's always been jealous of Lindsey-the-muse in that regard. And his "surprise" was so feigned. How could he NOT know "Wrong" was about him? Come on. "PIGGY IN THE MIDDLE" people. Mick would have to be retarded not to realize that was referring to the chapter in his book of the SAME name that dished about his fling with Stevie.

It's hard for me to say whether WMYTYTO is meaner than "The Ledge" because they are so similar both in tone and theme. I'm gonna try and put myself in Lindsey's shoes here, lol.

Here's my take on "The Ledge" and some of the ways it ties in with WMYTYTO - when he says "You can't walk out" he means she can't leave him alone entirely. Sure, she's broken up with him, but they occasionally still hit the sheets. At the very least she's still entwined with him musically, expecting him to "do" for her despite the fact that she has ripped out his heart and tap danced on it. In WMYTWTO we see Lindsey grousing about Stevie wanting and encouraging him to continue to want her after she's left, playing ego-centric mind games with him. I think that's what he's referring to here as well, and I see "you're never gonna make it" as connected to this.

In his eyes, her grossly over-inflated ego couldn't take it if Lindsey cut her off entirely, which he plans to do - "it won't last forever" from WMYTYTO - so be ready for the fall, baby. See if you can make it as Stevie the Great without your little worshipper. "What makes you think I'm the one who will love you forever"? Do you think I'm just gonna take it, that you can treat me like crap and I'll still make moon eyes at the self-proclaimed center of my universe? Take your planets of the universe and shove them where the sun don't shine. You'll see that I can love again the way I loved you - and BETTER. So, now you can go "paint a picture" - a song - about how wronged you were. "I know I could have loved you but you would not let me"? WhatEVER. But no one's surprised at how you try to paint yourself as a blameless martyr suffering under the cruel dictatorship of a jealous, arrogant, condescending dragon-boy. Well, that is NOT me, babe, no matter how much you'd like everyone to think so! So BITE ME!

In other words, Lindsey is mad as hell and he's not gonna take it anymore! lol

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I've often thought that if "The Ledge" and "What Makes You Think You're The One" are indeed about Stevie, then she's gotten the last laugh.

"You're never gonna make it, baby"... Well, she definitely did make it... though with varying levels of success. But making it is making it, after all.

"Everything you do has been done, and this won't last forever"... 25 years after that song was released, it definitely looks like Stevie's place in the rock music pantheon will last forever.

I think you're interpreting the song the wrong way. He isn't talking about making it in the music biz as a solo artist, he's talking about making it in love. She left him and it hurt him so badly that he thinks to himself 'You're never gonna make it in love with anyone, you just blew it.' This was probably recorded in late '78 or early '79 and her plans to go solo weren't even disclosed to the band during that time.

So, if you look at it as 'Who got the last laugh?', it was most certainly Lindsey.

[dissention]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Sugar, good point about the "six feet under" line. I just don't know what to make of it.

I've always interpreted it to mean that Lindsey knows Stevie is going to be miserable, so instead of her just withering away, she can be miserable for awhile. He can wait for her to finally die and let her suffer while she's still around.

Like I said, this song is *vicious*.

[dissention]

Originally posted by sodascouts
I've never thought GYOW was mean. Stevie makes a big deal out of that for nothing.

Well, I can't say I'd be very pleased if my ex-lover wrote a fantastic, hit song about me where they said "packing up and shacking up" is all I wanted to do.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
I think you're interpreting the song the wrong way. He isn't talking about making it in the music biz as a solo artist, he's talking about making it in love. She left him and it hurt him so badly that he thinks to himself 'You're never gonna make it in love with anyone, you just blew it.' This was probably recorded in late '78 or early '79 and her plans to go solo weren't even disclosed to the band during that time.

So, if you look at it as 'Who got the last laugh?', it was most certainly Lindsey.

To be completely honest, I've never really thought that Stevie and Lindsey's 'Tusk' songs were about each other, although a lot of people certainly have that interpretation.

As 'Tusk' was being written and recorded, Stevie had already dated both Mick and Don Henley, and Lindsey had apparently had at least one relationship between Stevie and Carol Ann Harris... so those relationships could certainly provide fodder for plenty of songs.
And in interviews Lindsey seems to imply that only one of his 'Tusk' tracks was written about Stevie ("That's Enough For Me"). So we can either believe him, or believe he was skirting around the issue.

Anyway, I was just ruminating on the idea that CarneVaca (and others in the past) put forth, that Lindsey might have been commenting on what he (Lindsey) may have felt as Stevie's inability to make music without his "guidance."

So yeah, when that particular meaning has been applied to the songs, then I've often thought that Stevie had the last laugh.

As far as the last laugh, relationship-wise, I guess that would depend on how truly happy one is in their relationship.
Despite popular opinion, you can be pretty doggone happy being single... and pretty doggone miserable being married.

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
To be completely honest, I've never really thought that Stevie and Lindsey's 'Tusk' songs were about each other, although a lot of people certainly have that interpretation.

As 'Tusk' was being written and recorded, Stevie had already dated both Mick and Don Henley, and Lindsey had apparently had at least one relationship between Stevie and Carol Ann Harris... so those relationships could certainly provide fodder for plenty of songs.
And in interviews Lindsey seems to imply that only one of his 'Tusk' tracks was written about Stevie ("That's Enough For Me"). So we can either believe him, or believe he was skirting around the issue.

Anyway, I was just ruminating on the idea that CarneVaca (and others in the past) put forth, that Lindsey might have been commenting on what he (Lindsey) may have felt as Stevie's inability to make music without his "guidance."

So yeah, when that particular meaning has been applied to the songs, then I've often thought that Stevie had the last laugh.

As far as the last laugh, relationship-wise, I guess that would depend on how truly happy one is in their relationship.
Despite popular opinion, you can be pretty doggone happy being single... and pretty doggone miserable being married.

Not all of the songs were about each other, but a good 85% of them were. I mean, Stevie says to this day that Lindsey is a "well of inspiration" for her songs, so I find it hard to believe that at the height of the craziness, these songs weren't about each other. Storms *screams* Lindsey, just as The Ledge *screams* Stevie.

As for what Lindsey has said in interviews, to be frank, every member contradicts themselves in different interviews. I believe that at that particular time, Lindsey probably didn't want to admit that thsoe songs were about Stevie because they had broken up years earlier.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by dissention
Storms *screams* Lindsey

You think? See, ever since Mick's book, I've thought "Storms" sounded like it could very well be about him, given the fact that he broke up with Stevie because of his blossoming relationship with Sara Recor.

"I haven't felt this way I feel, since many a year ago...."

"She said, every night, 'he will break your heart'...."

"I should have known from the first, I'd be the broken-hearted...."

Of course, we know that Stevie often pulls bits and pieces from various passages in her journals (and, therefore, various experiences and relationships), to form her songs... so I suppose it could actually be about both Mick and Lindsey.

[Johnny Stew]

Originally posted by sodascouts
In WMYTWTO we see Lindsey grousing about Stevie wanting and encouraging him to continue to want her after she's left, playing ego-centric mind games with him. I think that's what he's referring to here as well, and I see "you're never gonna make it" as connected to this.

In his eyes, her grossly over-inflated ego couldn't take it if Lindsey cut her off entirely, which he plans to do - "it won't last forever" from WMYTYTO - so be ready for the fall, baby. See if you can make it as Stevie the Great without your little worshipper. "What makes you think I'm the one who will love you forever"? Do you think I'm just gonna take it, that you can treat me like crap and I'll still make moon eyes at the self-proclaimed center of my universe? Take your planets of the universe and shove them where the sun don't shine. You'll see that I can love again the way I loved you - and BETTER. So, now you can go "paint a picture" - a song - about how wronged you were. "I know I could have loved you but you would not let me"? WhatEVER. But no one's surprised at how you try to paint yourself as a blameless martyr suffering under the cruel dictatorship of a jealous, arrogant, condescending dragon-boy. Well, that is NOT me, babe, no matter how much you'd like everyone to think so!

See, I still don't feel that Stevie intentionally encouraged Lindsey to still want her, by sleeping with him, etc.

Now, I DO think that... based on what I know of human emotion... that she WANTED him to still want and love her.
Whatever else can be said, she DID love him after all... but she felt secondary to everything else in his life: his music-making, his guitar-playing, etc.... and she got sick of it.
Seriously, what person on this Earth wants to feel like they're second-class in the life of the person they most love?
I know I personally wouldn't stand for that.

But that doesn't stop her from loving him... and in a very human way, a huge part of Stevie probably hoped and prayed that breaking up with Lindsey would be the eye-opener that he needed, to make him stand up and realize that he had been taking her for granted.

Sort of like, "I've told you time and time again that this behaviour makes me unhappy... so this time I'm going to SHOW you how unhappy I am, by leaving you........ BUT, I hope you get the message, and come back to me, so we can stay together."

But Lindsey didn't do that. It seems (from what we know) that he didn't make any moves to win Stevie back... which probably hurt her deeply.
"Well, I guess you didn't love me as much as you claimed, if you can just let me walk away."

Lindsey, for his part, was hurt too, and probably couldn't understand where Stevie was coming from.
"Of COURSE I love you... don't you see that, by how much care I put into arranging your songs?"

So they both became angry with one another, and their pride and egos began to make it all the more difficult for them to work things out.
Then they both started dating other people... half for companionship, probably, and perhaps half out of spite.

Eventually animosity built so high, that there was no going back.
She was hurt because she felt he should have loved her enough to try and make things better.
And he was hurt because he felt she should have known after all those years, that he truly did love her and need her.

So I do not believe that she actively set out to make sure Lindsey continued to want her, by flirting with him or still occasionally sleeping with him, or whatever. Though I know that others feel that they've probably slept with each other many times since the break-up.

I guess it's all down to perception.

[dissention]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
You think? See, ever since Mick's book, I've thought "Storms" sounded like it could very well be about him, given the fact that he broke up with Stevie because of his blossoming relationship with Sara Recor.

"I haven't felt this way I feel, since many a year ago...."

"She said, every night, 'he will break your heart'...."

"I should have known from the first, I'd be the broken-hearted...."

Of course, we know that Stevie often pulls bits and pieces from various passages in her journals (and, therefore, various experiences and relationships), to form her songs... so I suppose it could actually be about both Mick and Lindsey.

While I don't think that the song is completely about Lindsey, I do think it is mostly about him. I do see shades of Mick, though. The whole song reads a suicide note, so she probably just took those two men and blended them together.

[CarneVaca]

I could swear I read an article that made the reference to The Ledge being about Stevie's plans for a solo career. But someone pointed out the timing might have been off, though it's hard to tell with any certainty. She must have been planning to go solo already during the recording of Tusk, I would think. She was growing impatient with not getting enough of her songs out.

And when you think in those terms, you can perhaps apply the six feet under line to her career. You're never gonna make it, baby.

And if that's the case, Lindsey was clearly wrong. Which brings us back to "Wrong." If you ask me, everything about that song is right.