What early Pre-Rumours era songs do you consider to be "hits"?

[slipkid]

I think the perfect FM scenario would've been if Jeremy Spencer left as he did 2/71 while Peter Green was still in the band. FM chose Christine McVie to replace Spencer on the fly. Not to mention the Boston Tea Party album is released worldwide.

Since Christine had the blues chops with Chicken Shack, and playing with FM for "Mr. Wonderful" , it would've worked! That band would've been a monster.

If parallel universe's exist, this would be one outcome of Fleetwood Mac.

[jeremy spencer]

Originally Posted by slipkid

I think the perfect FM scenario would've been if Jeremy Spencer left as he did 2/71 while Peter Green was still in the band. FM chose Christine McVie to replace Spencer on the fly. Not to mention the Boston Tea Party album is released worldwide.

Since Christine had the blues chops with Chicken Shack, and playing with FM for "Mr. Wonderful" , it would've worked! That band would've been a monster.

If parallel universe's exist, this would be one outcome of Fleetwood Mac.

...I'm inclined to agree.

[aleuzzi]

Originally Posted by slipkid

I think the perfect FM scenario would've been if Jeremy Spencer left as he did 2/71 while Peter Green was still in the band. FM chose Christine McVie to replace Spencer on the fly. Not to mention the Boston Tea Party album is released worldwide.

Since Christine had the blues chops with Chicken Shack, and playing with FM for "Mr. Wonderful" , it would've worked! That band would've been a monster.

If parallel universe's exist, this would be one outcome of Fleetwood Mac.

I thought Welch replaced Spencer. Christine toured with Jeremy and the remaining FM members for an entire tour. She was brought in to "fill out the sound" in the absence of a third guitarist.

Totally agree about the exciting possibility of Christine playing with Green, Kirwan, etc...I've always loved her piano parts on the Green songs for Mr. Wonderful. Top notch.

[Wouter Vuijk]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

Totally agree about the exciting possibility of Christine playing with Green, Kirwan, etc...I've always loved her piano parts on the Green songs for Mr. Wonderful. Top notch.

Maybe, but Mr. Wonderful did not include Danny, and had a big reliance on Jeremy. So that line-up actually did very well.

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by aleuzzi

I thought Welch replaced Spencer. Christine toured with Jeremy and the remaining FM members for an entire tour. She was brought in to "fill out the sound" in the absence of a third guitarist.

Totally agree about the exciting possibility of Christine playing with Green, Kirwan, etc...I've always loved her piano parts on the Green songs for Mr. Wonderful. Top notch.

I'm writing if Peter Green stayed in FM, and had not left 5/70. There would be no need for a replacement for any member until 2/71. There would also be no "Kiln House", but I'm sure Danny's songs from that album would've been released later with Peter Green's influence.

It's one thing for Green to replace Spencer to play "Kiln House" songs on tour as it happened, vs. Christine joining the band to play Peter Green/Danny Kirwan songs.

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by Wouter Vuijk

Maybe, but Mr. Wonderful did not include Danny, and had a big reliance on Jeremy. So that line-up actually did very well.

Jeremy Spencer's version of "Shake Your Moneymaker", is balls on blues! It proved that the Brits could do it better than John Mayall, and he was the godfather after Alexis Korner. It also made the Paul Butterfield version sound "white suburban blues, American style". Spencer's slide ability was beyond reproach for all white guitarists at the time (pre Duane Allman), yet Spencer fell into an Ellmore James rut. "Mr. Wonderful" is that example.

[Wouter Vuijk]

Originally Posted by slipkid

It proved that the Brits could do it better than John Mayall.

John Mayall is Brit as well

[THD]

Originally Posted by slipkid

I'm writing if Peter Green stayed in FM, and had not left 5/70. There would be no need for a replacement for any member until 2/71. There would also be no "Kiln House", but I'm sure Danny's songs from that album would've been released later with Peter Green's influence.

It's one thing for Green to replace Spencer to play "Kiln House" songs on tour as it happened, vs. Christine joining the band to play Peter Green/Danny Kirwan songs.

I don't think Jeremy would have quit when he did , if the above Peter Green scenario had happened .Peter would have still been shouldering the "Front Man" responsibilities and the songwriting load -expectation of top ten hits-(probably uncomfortably given his state of mind and phillosophy ) but if still committed to the band, would have done it and taken the pressure of Jeremy and Danny

[doodyhead]

In a parallell universe Jeremy would have realized that Peter loved him playing piano or rhythm guitar ian if he embraced that the question would never had come up. Johnny Almond or dick hextall smith or christine perfect or Steve gregorywere available if needed. Danny would not have been necessary for duty to be second guitar for Peter just as peter was second guitar for Jeremy.
People are human and choices are made in a changing universe. Peter was most likely on the way out when he was on the way in. And of course in a perfect world there would have been no sixties to change the course of everyones lives.

A Fringe Thought, no doubt

[THD]

Originally Posted by doodyhead

In a parallell universe Jeremy would have realized that Peter loved him playing piano or rhythm guitar ian if he embraced that the question would never had come up. Johnny Almond or dick hextall smith or christine perfect or Steve gregorywere available if needed. Danny would not have been necessary for duty to be second guitar for Peter just as peter was second guitar for Jeremy.
People are human and choices are made in a changing universe. Peter was most likely on the way out when he was on the way in. And of course in a perfect world there would have been no sixties to change the course of everyones lives.

A Fringe Thought, no doubt

Quite right Doodyhead This Jeremy not playing second guitar for Peter's songs situation has always puzzled me It's not like Jeremy could only play on a guitar set to an open tuning -surely !- or even that he only had one guitar available and didn't want to constantly change the tuning ,which is a pain I must admit !. It was inevitable that a third guitarist would be required to provide the chordal harmony to Peter's lead (This was ,as it turned out, not a bad thing ,as this three guitar line up produced three of the four greatest concerts I've ever seen !¬)

Jeremy, if you're out there ,you were very open in the Peter Green Documentery when you were talking candidly about not having anything to offer when Then Play On was being made ,perhaps you could be equally candid here , and cast some light on this backing guitar situation Peter obviously greatly admired your playing ,and was ,I have always felt ,very fond of you as a person which is why he allowed youto slope offstage ,leaving them as a trio to play Peter's numbers -something I suspect he would not have tollerated from anyone else .! Was it just lack of self confidence in your straight (non open tuning¬) guitar playing ? I can't believe that !

And while I'm at it - I too love Christine's piano playing on the Mr Wonderful tracks (which I also think have some of Peter's best phrasing ever ) but why weren't you playing piano , did they suggest it to you but you declined ?

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by Wouter Vuijk

John Mayall is Brit as well

My analogy was that Mayall did it better than Alexis Korner. FM did it better than Mayall. I was writing that the British blues movement went beyond Mayall.

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by THD

Quite right Doodyhead This Jeremy not playing second guitar for Peter's songs situation has always puzzled me It's not like Jeremy could only play on a guitar set to an open tuning -surely !- or even that he only had one guitar available and didn't want to constantly change the tuning ,which is a pain I must admit !. It was inevitable that a third guitarist would be required to provide the chordal harmony to Peter's lead (This was ,as it turned out, not a bad thing ,as this three guitar line up produced three of the four greatest concerts I've ever seen !¬)

Jeremy, if you're out there ,you were very open in the Peter Green Documentery when you were talking candidly about not having anything to offer when Then Play On was being made ,perhaps you could be equally candid here , and cast some light on this backing guitar situation Peter obviously greatly admired your playing ,and was ,I have always felt ,very fond of you as a person which is why he allowed youto slope offstage ,leaving them as a trio to play Peter's numbers -something I suspect he would not have tollerated from anyone else .! Was it just lack of self confidence in your straight (non open tuning¬) guitar playing ? I can't believe that !

And while I'm at it - I too love Christine's piano playing on the Mr Wonderful tracks (which I also think have some of Peter's best phrasing ever ) but why weren't you playing piano , did they suggest it to you but you declined ?

The cause, and effect! So what you, and vinnie are writing is that if Peter Green stayed, Jeremy Spencer would have no need to leave because Peter Green was the natural leader of the band. Yet if you saw the 2007 BBC Peter Green documentary, Jeremy felt like he had nothing else to offer after "Then Play On". If you read Jeremy Spencer's reply to my "dream" scenario, he didn't offer a different opinion.

What bothers me most, is that every known recording post Munich 3/70, Peter Green plays the best guitar of his career. Stockholm's 4/1/70 version of "I've Got a Good Mind to Give Up Living" crushes the famous New Orleans version from 1/70. Carlos Santana couldn't touch Peter Green's version of "Black Magic Woman" from the Roundhouse Chalk Farm, 4/24/70.

So how does "Syd Barrett #2" according to den mother Mick Fleetwood play his best guitar after "he took a trip, and never came back" in Munich 3/70? Not to mention lumping Danny Kirwan into the incident. While Peter Green did become sick a couple years later, blaming him for leaving 5/70 was not because he was mentally ill.

While Mick Fleetwood has done a lot for former FM members, his spin of the "myth" of FM is really disingenuous.

[THD]

Originally Posted by slipkid

The cause, and effect! So what you, and vinnie are writing is that if Peter Green stayed, Jeremy Spencer would have no need to leave because Peter Green was the natural leader of the band. Yet if you saw the 2007 BBC Peter Green documentary, Jeremy felt like he had nothing else to offer after "Then Play On". If you read Jeremy Spencer's reply to my "dream" scenario, he didn't offer a different opinion.

What bothers me most, is that every known recording post Munich 3/70, Peter Green plays the best guitar of his career. Stockholm's 4/1/70 version of "I've Got a Good Mind to Give Up Living" crushes the famous New Orleans version from 1/70. Carlos Santana couldn't touch Peter Green's version of "Black Magic Woman" from the Roundhouse Chalk Farm, 4/24/70.

So how does "Syd Barrett #2" according to den mother Mick Fleetwood play his best guitar after "he took a trip, and never came back" in Munich 3/70? Not to mention lumping Danny Kirwan into the incident. While Peter Green did become sick a couple years later, blaming him for leaving 5/70 was not because he was mentally ill.

While Mick Fleetwood has done a lot for former FM members, his spin of the "myth" of FM is really disingenuous.

I think Peter was always the rather uneasy natural leader I don't think he particularly wanted to be ,but he did it and did it superbly .
I thought Jeremy said he had nothinhg to offer song wise for the album , and I assumed (I mean what I concluded 40 years ago when I was reading that he wasnt involved via the music press ) wast hat he was not confident in composing original material which I absolutely sympathise with .(sticking another three ELmore James tracks on Then Play on would have been a mistake )But he had plenty to offer post TPO -the live performances some of the finest ever as demonstrated in you quite rightly beloved Boston Tea Party recordings for example As Doody head so rightly said in one of his posts- you got three great bands for the price of one when they played live !

I absolutely agree with you about Peter's finest playing post Munich(though the sparse and beautifully phrased playing of the Mr.Wonderful era is up there with it in my opinion)¬ whatever happened there did not affect his playing ,dare I say that I go the impression from his interveiws in the doc, that he felt it helped , or he felt he did wonderful playing whilst there (not Jeremy's opinion at all if I recall correctly )¬but this does not mean that he wasnt in torment in his personal life or his spirituality To be fair to Mick, he says that they were unaware of what was going on ie the lyrics to Manalishi -they thought they were just song lyrics ,and we thought they were just song lyrics( of a great song )and there was no indication on stage- his inter song chat- that anything was amiss .

Jeremy himself said that he felt Danny was badly affected by Munich (till I saw this doc I had no idea Danny was even there for 40 years the story was that Peter was there all by himself virtually kidnapped !) So it's not just Mick's spin

[slipkid]

Originally Posted by THD

I think Peter was always the rather uneasy natural leader I don't think he particularly wanted to be ,but he did it and did it superbly .
I thought Jeremy said he had nothinhg to offer song wise for the album , and I assumed (I mean what I concluded 40 years ago when I was reading that he wasnt involved via the music press ) wast hat he was not confident in composing original material which I absolutely sympathise with .(sticking another three ELmore James tracks on Then Play on would have been a mistake )But he had plenty to offer post TPO -the live performances some of the finest ever as demonstrated in you quite rightly beloved Boston Tea Party recordings for example As Doody head so rightly said in one of his posts- you got three great bands for the price of one when they played live !

I absolutely agree with you about Peter's finest playing post Munich(though the sparse and beautifully phrased playing of the Mr.Wonderful era is up there with it in my opinion)¬ whatever happened there did not affect his playing ,dare I say that I go the impression from his interveiws in the doc, that he felt it helped , or he felt he did wonderful playing whilst there (not Jeremy's opinion at all if I recall correctly )¬but this does not mean that he wasnt in torment in his personal life or his spirituality To be fair to Mick, he says that they were unaware of what was going on ie the lyrics to Manalishi -they thought they were just song lyrics ,and we thought they were just song lyrics( of a great song )and there was no indication on stage- his inter song chat- that anything was amiss .

Jeremy himself said that he felt Danny was badly affected by Munich (till I saw this doc I had no idea Danny was even there for 40 years the story was that Peter was there all by himself virtually kidnapped !) So it's not just Mick's spin

I just watched the brand new "Classic Albums" documentary on Pink Floyd's "Wish You Were Here". "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" was a tribute to the original guitarist in PF. Syd Barrett's trigger from reality happened over a long weekend in late 1967. When he came back, you could see it in his eyes, he had "shut down". After that "incident" Syd Barrett would not play his guitar on stage for periods of time. He would just stand there staring into space while the rest of the band was playing. Does this even remotely describe Peter Green after his "incident"??? Roky Erickson, and Skip Spence are closer to Syd Barrett, than Peter Green.

Of all the "acid casualties", Peter Green seemed to be doing well 5/70. As I said Mick Fleetwood in his head has justified Peter Green leaving FM over drugs, vs. boredom. Logic says, why did FM desperately ask Peter Green back to fill in for Spencer, when he went on his own path? I don't think Pink Floyd would've asked Syd Barrett to fill in for David Gilmour, because David found a "new beginning" in Los Angeles. Do I need to use a sledgehammer to make my point!?!?

[Ms Moose]

Originally Posted by slipkid

I just watched the brand new "Classic Albums" documentary on Pink Floyd's "Wish You Were Here". "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" was a tribute to the original guitarist in PF. Syd Barrett's trigger from reality happened over a long weekend in late 1967. When he came back, you could see it in his eyes, he had "shut down". After that "incident" Syd Barrett would not play his guitar on stage for periods of time. He would just stand there staring into space while the rest of the band was playing. Does this even remotely describe Peter Green after his "incident"??? Roky Erickson, and Skip Spence are closer to Syd Barrett, than Peter Green.

Of all the "acid casualties", Peter Green seemed to be doing well 5/70. As I said Mick Fleetwood in his head has justified Peter Green leaving FM over drugs, vs. boredom. Logic says, why did FM desperately ask Peter Green back to fill in for Spencer, when he went on his own path? I don't think Pink Floyd would've asked Syd Barrett to fill in for David Gilmour, because David found a "new beginning" in Los Angeles. Do I need to use a sledgehammer to make my point!?!?

You really have made your (the) point, slipkid. There is a tendency in us humans to find the easy explanations to very complex things and events that we don't understand or don't want to take responsibillity for (like noticing that your friend is in trouble). I think Mich Reynolds is quoted in the Celmins Biography on Peter Green saying, that the development of his mental problems was a slow development. I happened over some time. Taking acid didn't help the latent condition, but it was taking acid, being overworked and being a sensitive soul exposed to too much too soon over some time that made him ill.
The Hamburg myth is the easy explanation.

IMHO

Ms Moose