Loss of spontainety?

[face of glass]

Oh yes. Here I was about to submit a pretentious first post about how Fleetwood Mac has lost a lot of the spontainety they used to have before the Shaking The Cage tour and how Lindsey plays a large part in it. And then there’s this Soundstage thing, where he plays a setlist that’s a dream come true for a hardcore fan. It certainly gives some food for thought.
I personally disagree with LB fans who claim that ”I’m So Afraid” and ”Come” sound different each night. I think these are very carefully before-planned solos with very little variation in them if you listen to different recordings. He started calculating his solos during the Out Of The Cradle tour, when he basically based ”I’m So Afraid” solo on the very loose-sounding variant that was on the 1980 live album. Same thing with ”Eyes Of The World”, he now seems to think that the Mirage tour video has the definitive version of it. With ”Come” he’s found a prototype that’s unlike the studio version but still there’s very little alteration. It was different during the Tusk and Mirage tours, when his solo playing seemed a lot more inspired, on many of the songs, not just the usual guitar-slaughtering highlights. And since LB’s guitar is pretty much the only thing that can provide variation in most songs the Mac plays today, it’s very sad that he’s not varying his solos a lot.
I think there is a ”loss of spontainety” going on in here, actually has been for ten years already. When Lindsey discovered new wave during the making of Tusk, he got very spontaneous. It didn’t seem to matter if there were technical imperfections or anything like that. He maintained this spontainety with Law And Order and his own songs on Mirage, not to mention the Tusk and Mirage tours, but then comes Go Insane, a very thoroughly arranged record that supposedly took a year to put together. Same with Tango In The Night. Then comes Out Of The Cradle and besides pre-arranged solos we get the re-arranged ”Big Love” and ”Go Insane”, the performances of which have very little variation. And then begins the terrific, complex finger-picking. The songs are great, but the performances from each night are practically interchangeable.
I think that the finger-picking thing with it’s careful arrangements is also harming his solo playing, to the extent that he does not feel the need to make his solos different any longer. Now don’t get me wrong, Lindsey is the main reason I’m into Fleetwood Mac and his recent work hits me even harder than the music he did during the so-called ”golden period”. However, if I was to choose between the young, spontaneous Buckingham and the older, calculating one, I would pick the young ’un easily. Rock’n’roll is supposed to be spontaneous, it is not supposed to be like classical music where you try to perform a piece as close as possible to the way the composer intended it. That’s what these complex new pieces are doing. Robert Fripp once said something like: in a performance of a classical music piece the composer makes the laws, the orchestra is the sequencer and the conductor is the chief of police. I don’t know if it’s like that with Lindsey, but sometimes I get the feeling it might be so.
And about this Soundstage thing. I think LB knew he was going to perform in front of a few hundred hardcore fans, so he did a very surprising setlist. However, it’s different when he’s playing to dozens of thousands of people. I’m sure then there’s some pressure on him, the using of speeches, playing similarly and playing the same setlist every night helps him to get rid of some of the burden. He doesn’t want to be the one who screws up this time, he wants the band to stay together. It’s very different when he plays to a bunch of hardcores, then he can relax and play whatever he wants (weird that he played the unreleased Gift Of Screws songs, since it could’ve been used as a promotional opportunity a lot more). In this environment he’s accepted. On stage, who knows what’s going on in his head.
I’m hoping for setlist variation myself and I’m sure he doesn’t get to decide that much of it. Other members of the band have their say and there might be some business person telling them they should ”play something that this particular target group wants to hear”. However, he could change his own songs at least.
That’s enough of this pretentious first post.

[shackin'up]

Originally posted by face of glass

That’s enough of this pretentious first post.

Welcome to the Ledge, Face of Glass!!!

This was a great read, and maybe you have a point on some things mentioned. But basicly the above quote is the only thing I really agree on.

Let's wait on the PBS TV recording if LB just chooses anotherway of varying things. The Mac does not only play for hardcore fans, but for a much larger group.

gerald

PS: For a show that is much more orchestrated than in the early days the room to manoeuvre is of course less. Now that Lindsey has said that it is great to have more instrumental space since Chris left, it is a bit of a weird choice to put in so many backingmusicians that these versions automatically become more "planned". But in that perspective I really think Come and ISA do vary show by show.

[wondergirl9847]

Hello there! Welcome to the Ledge and wow, what a first post!

I agree with your frustration in them not changing things much, but if you see them in concert, you will know that it doesn't really matter, because your adrenaline pumps just at seeing Lindsey on stage playing the same old, same old...or at least, for me, it was that way. I've heard ISA, GYOW, etc, 10 bazillion times in the various shows (thank GOD for mp3's!! LOL) through the years, but seeing them LIVE, IN PERSON...it's like, you've NEVER heard it before.

That said, YES, I wish he would change the songs up a bit, Big Love sounds the same EVERY TIME (seeing it is a wonder, tho!) and they should do like 1-2 songs MAX from Rumours if at all and concentrate more on rare tunes, but this is FM...who are unfortunately, expected to play those friggin Rumours tunes and please the frickin masses (CURSE THEM!! LOL) instead of us die-hards.

Good news would be that he DID tell Jessica from his official site that he was thinking of adding Red Rover to the setlist, so, I'm holding onto that for dear life!!! PLEASE GOD!!!!!!!!!!

[sodascouts]

I agree that LB is less spontaneous now but not to the degree you seem to. I do believe he does variations on ISA and Come, even though they aren't HUGELY different from night to night.

However.... I did think it was a little strange that he started to play ISA's guitar solo for Murrow during Soundstage. He stopped and muttered "I'm stealing from myself." Then he did another take and made it different. So I guess there is an element of habit in there, too, lol.

The one area we all know he lacks spontaneity in is the realm of speechmaking. That's why I find it hilarious that one of his rehearsed speeches is about "the importance of spontaneity." Does he even realize the irony inherent in that?! Surely he does! So why say it?

[chiliD]

I think anyone who has seen Fleetwood Mac prior to 1978 has a legitimate beef about the "set by numbers" way they pace their concerts these days...might as well be a Broadway play instead of a rock concert...it is scripted & choreographed...God forbid anything minute go wrong (other than an inadvertant string-break or guitar cord come unplugged at an inopportune moment). LONNNNNNG gone are the days we'd here a song one night, then hear something else in its place the next night.

Paraphrasing what I heard a stand-up comedian say (I forget who said it at the moment, but I THINK it was Richard Jeni), "It is easier to change the audience than it is the material". Fine, for a comedian, maybe, but rock concerts are SUPPOSED to be "spontaneous"...

in the words of Pete Townshend,

ROCK IS DEAD.

[face of glass]

First of all, thank you for making me feel welcome. And now, on to business:

Originally posted by shackin'up
PS: For a show that is much more orchestrated than in the early days the room to manoeuvre is of course less. Now that Lindsey has said that it is great to have more instrumental space since Chris left, it is a bit of a weird choice to put in so many backingmusicians that these versions automatically become more "planned". [/B]

I do understand that. However, I myself do not understand the need to play the songs like they were made for the studio albums. I LOVE the Mirage tour version of "Gypsy" and the alternate arrangement it has, with that acoustic in the background and Lindsey replacing the riff from the studio version with a very clever variant. Buckinghamnicks.net had "Straight Back" from the Mirage tour rehearsals available for download a while ago and I loved that one too, despite it being very stripped down compared to the studio version. I'd love to see just the five of them on stage again, with very little other musicians. However it most likely won’t happen ever again.

Originally posted by wondergirl9847
[but seeing them LIVE, IN PERSON...it's like, you've NEVER heard it before.

I have a feeling that kind of a sensation might happen to me too. I’m going to see them in Germany two times. A month before that however, I’m going to see Bob Dylan and he’s played more than a hundred songs during the American leg of his current tour. I’m afraid it will affect my attitude towards those FM shows somewhat. But I’m pretty sure that on the first night I’ll be like a raving fanatic.

Originally posted by wondergirl9847
Good news would be that he DID tell Jessica from his official site that he was thinking of adding Red Rover to the setlist, so, I'm holding onto that for dear life!!! PLEASE GOD!!!!!!!!!!

I’d love to see it live too, although it probably won’t be an improvisation launch pad or anything like that. However, at this point anything unusual will do. Even “When I See You Again” or “Oh Diane”.

Originally posted by sodascouts
I agree that LB is less spontaneous now but not to the degree you seem to. I do believe he does variations on ISA and Come, even though they aren't HUGELY different from night to night.
However.... I did think it was a little strange that he started to play ISA's guitar solo for Murrow during Soundstage. He stopped and muttered "I'm stealing from myself." Then he did another take and made it different. So I guess there is an element of habit in there, too, lol.

This is a difficult issue to discuss, as listening to any music is a subjective experience. Big fans obviously will hear differences while others won’t. I admit that I haven’t heard every version from the SYW tour of these two, and I’m open to suggestions in this matter, if someone is actually willing to go through the trouble and give me some advice on what to download. However, what I did hear didn’t sound too different to me. And it is a problem, because I consider Fleetwood Mac among such classic live acts as the Who and Deep Purple Mk II. If I do feel that these recent concerts aren’t up to the standard the band set to themselves a lot earlier, then I can’t help it, no matter how much I love this particular group of people.
Basically, I believe that almost anything can give a fan an impression that something fishy is going on during the shows. I was at the message board of your site the other day and was reading the old thread “Is Lindsey overdoing it?”. If a fan sees LB repeating certain things night after night then it might give the impression that he’s really not enjoying the performances and is doing everything just for money. This is just a matter of believing it or not believing it. There is no objective evidence of his fakery, unless someone actually finds a way to get into Lindseys head.
And yes, he does have a way of repeating some of his soloing. Certain arpeggios reappear here and there. When I’m listening to the end of “Running Through The Garden” I start to think: “I must have heard this before”. But that’s usually just for a half of a second. The intensity never fails to overtake me.

QUOTE]Originally posted by sodascouts
That's why I find it hilarious that one of his rehearsed speeches is about "the importance of spontaneity." Does he even realize the irony inherent in that?! Surely he does! So why say it? [/QUOTE]

I think he’s just playing with all the bootleggers and hardcores.

Originally posted by chiliD
Fine, for a comedian, maybe, but rock concerts are SUPPOSED to be "spontaneous"... [/B]

I agree. Rock music, as an offspring of jazz and blues, should be like that. However the money just got in the way. It hasn’t been the social engagement it started out as for a long time, in the big circles at least.

[wondergirl9847]

However, I myself do not understand the need to play the songs like they were made for the studio albums

I don't either, which is why they need to DITCH Dreams or at least do something different with it, Gypsy and Rhiannon too. They did GREAT with SYLM on the Dance with the banjo and all!

Even “When I See You Again”

Wow, you ARE desperate.

The thing about LB doing ISA and Come is that he DOES do them differently, you have to listen carefully for the various changes and unique notes. If you listen to the Pittsburgh 2003 show and the Birmingham 2003 show, ISA is different, there are changes, no, not MAJOR-this-song-sounds-totally-different changes, but they are there. Also, FM is not a band known for changing stuff up much, I mean, my gawsh, they've opened with the Chain 98% of the time they've gone on tour with the Fireflies. Sure, it's frustrating, but knowing they aren't gonna change, ya gotta live for the surprises (LB's Soundstage anyone?!).

[David]

Originally posted by wondergirl9847
Also, FM is not a band known for changing stuff up much, I mean, my gawsh, they've opened with the Chain 98% of the time they've gone on tour with the Fireflies.

Nah. The only other tour the fireflies opened with "The Chain" was the 1997 reunion tour.

Fleetwood Mac has obviously undergone a sea change. Twenty-five years ago, song arrangements evolved in sometimes startling ways throughout the course of a tour (a suggested parlor game: get yourself a recording of "Not That Funny" from October 1979 & another recording of it from August 1980 & listen to the two performances back to back). People used to walk OUT of Fleetwood Mac concerts because their live arrangements were so far afield from the songs' arrangements on the albums. I think a lot of that energy was attributable to the age of the band members (in their 30s, for the most part) back then & to the length of the tours -- & maybe even to the frustrations within the band.

For this tour, they're not thirtysomething anymore. Plus they cram their stage full of musicians. That's a major point. Four musicians (1980) can improvise & stretch a hell of a lot easier than nine or ten or whatever it is now. The more people you've got playing something, the more holes are being filled in, & the less likely any individual instrumentalist is to ad lib a jam & hope the others follow his lead.

The band used to stretch songs to amazing lengths. I'd like to think that something like "Peacekeeper" would get stretched out like a piece of taffy as the tour trudges onward through the months, but I don't think it will happen. We shall see.

[wondergirl9847]

Originally posted by David
Nah. The only other tour the fireflies opened with "The Chain" was the 1997 reunion tour.

Then, I guess it just SEEMS that way then. LOL

[face of glass]

Originally posted by David
For this tour, they're not thirtysomething anymore. Plus they cram their stage full of musicians. That's a major point. Four musicians (1980) can improvise & stretch a hell of a lot easier than nine or ten or whatever it is now. The more people you've got playing something, the more holes are being filled in, & the less likely any individual instrumentalist is to ad lib a jam & hope the others follow his lead.

That's true. The age thing not necessarily though. Bob Dylan has been reported to be in a very energetic mood throughout his current tour. It tends to depend on what is the motivation of the musician. Does he/she want to interact with the others, is there inspiration to try certain bits in a different way etc. If "getting some bread on the table" is the main reason for a musician to be on stage, then the whole thing becomes questionable, at least for me.

I agree completely about the backing musicians. The only way for the band to gain some inspiration back is to get rid of most of them. According to people who went there, Lindsey appeared very relaxed and loose on Soundstage with only three musicians behind him. I'm hoping that they start to do stuff like this more, although it certainly won't bring much dough to their pockets.