Is Carlos Santana really all that?

sulamith · #1 11-15-2002, 12:17 PM

Since there have been a number of technical questions being asked and answered so well lately, I have to ask this question because I am already sick to death of that "Game of Love" song with Michele Branch.
Every time I turn on the radio for the last few days, there it is blaring at me. I think my brain will ooze out of my ears if I have to hear it every hour.

So, all you guitar players, please tell me.....
Is Santana really that great a player? Is his technical ability really that superior to my beloved Lindsey, or is it just radically different?
I just don't get the "vibe" or emotion off of his playing that I get from LB, so maybe it's that I just don't connect with him. Santana's playing just sort of lays there as far as I'm concerned, whereas Lindsey's grabs me and forces me to listen.

Everyone thinks Santana is just the be all and end all of guitarists. Has he just been very good at marketing himself a la Martha Stewart or Thomas Kinkade?
I don't think his playing is anything to get all that excited over.
Why does he have such a reputation?
Please fill me in on whatever it is that I am missing.

chiliD · #2 11-15-2002, 01:26 PM

My criteria for being a great guitarist is if you can tell exactly who's playing in just a few notes; someone who's SOUND is like their DNA. Carlos is definitely in that category.

BB King
Albert King
Freddie King
Buddy Guy
Eric Clapton
Peter Green
Lindsey Buckingham
Mark Knopfler
Steve Howe
Jimi Hendrix
Carlos Santana
Eddie Van Halen
Stevie Ray Vaughan
Neil Young
Joe Satriani
Steve Vai

All have that "fingerprint" tone that makes them recognizable upon hearing only a few notes of their playing. Not all are "technical wizards" (i.e. Neil Young), but you sure can tell who's playing a mile away.

There are things about Carlos' playing I don't care for (his insistance on overly drenching his guitar with reverb...but, then that's part of his "trademark"), and he's not anywhere near the guitarist he WAS 20 or so years ago...due to that he's found his niche and has gotten comfortable. Back in the mid-70s, when he was playing more jazz-fusion material (Like the "Love, Devotion & Surrender" album he did with Mahavishnu John McLaughlin), he had some INCREDIBLE chops...since then he's found a simpler sound and has stuck with it. Like Peter Green & Eric Clapton, he CAN play "like he used to", but CHOOSES not to.

sulamith · #3 11-15-2002, 01:48 PM

Thanks, ChiliD. That does help me to understand it better, and I think that reverb thing you were talking about is what I don't like about him either. And I sure can tell most of those guys from just a few notes.

I didn't recognize all the names on your list, but I guess I have a little research to do. My 9 year-old is getting ready to start guitar lessons after pestering me about it for about a year. He says he likes the way the strings feel under his fingers. I'm going to let him see what he can do. I read music myself, but I am going to have to learn about all this guitar stuff, so that is why I have been reading these threads. They are very interesting.

We are going guitar shopping this afternoon, as a matter of fact.

Hey, what about Keith Richard? He seems like another one who is no technical genius but has his own style.

CarneVaca · #4 11-15-2002, 01:54 PM

So true, Chili. I bought Supernatural a few years ago because I thought it was a neat idea to record a CD with a bunch of other artists. But I have to admit that I have not listened to it in more than a year. Now comes another one, using the same formula, and I won't go near it. Interestingly, I have yet to hear the Michele Branch song in full; I simply don't listen to the radio anymore.

A colleague brought over the new record, I popped it into my computer, skipped through a few songs, and all I heard was the same tired licks over and over. I believe Chili hit it right on the head: Carlos found a comfort zone and has stuck with it.

This is all the more reason to appreciate Lindsey's work. Even though the Gift of Screws music doesn't break new ground for the most part, he seems to have been able to blend all the stuff he's done in the past to as close to perfection as you can get.

madformac · #5 11-15-2002, 02:00 PM

Yeah I agree with chiliD there although I would add Slash to that list as well.

I've got Santana's new album, as well as Supernatural before it and although it is very good it does seem too manufactured. Santana has found a new market with his grammy winning style, I just hope he doesn't run it into the ground.

Speaking as a guitarist not a listener, there is nothing "special" about his playing in the last few years to me. I do like the sounds he gets (I used to have a PRS guitar with the same pickups) again a personal thing, but he doesn't make my jaw drop like Lindsey or Knopfler do.

Good luck to him, he is distinctive and successful but he has gone too mainstream in style to pull anything radical with a guitar for my liking.

chiliD · #6 11-15-2002, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Hey, what about Keith Richard?

Sure!! My list wasn't complete by ANY stretch of the imagination.

Also:

Pete Townshend
Jeff Beck
Danny Kirwan
Chet Atkins
Les Paul
Charlie Christian
Wes Montgomery
Joe Pass
Brent Mason

(and, I'm starting to feel that Rick Vito is closing in on being included in this group...I've gotten to where I can pick him out, too!)

wondergirl9847 · #7 11-15-2002, 07:01 PM

Carlos ain't all that...to me. That new song with Michelle is okay, but his guitaring (to a novice, like myself, hehe. LMAO!) sounds "messy" at times, it sounds like he's just strumming with no kind of melodic consistency...like a 5 year old banging on a piano. I HATE when guitarists do that, no melody, just trying to be the fastest or whatever. *Yawn*

Anywho, I can, however, tell it's him when he plays...which is what Chilid was saying...but do I really give a hoot? Nope.

Lindsey is the ONLY person to EVER move me to tears with his guitar playing, that, my friends, makes him my favorite and IMO, the best.

chiliD · #8 11-15-2002, 07:09 PM

...Ry Cooder.

My wife can pick Webb Wilder out of a pack of 100 guitar players...not that that's a GOOD thing; it's just that he's so BAD.

estranged4life · #9 11-15-2002, 11:42 PM

guitarist to add to your list chiliD:

Gary Moore (Has anyone heard his live performance of "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" that he did with George Harrison???)

Brian May (Anything he did Queen-wise is great IMO...)

Did anyone watch Conan O'Brien last night? Mark Knopfler was the musical performer and I just HAD to @#$%^& fall alseep just before he appeared...I hate when that happens...Brian J.

seteca · #10 11-16-2002, 12:48 AM

I would definitely not say that Santana is "the be all and end all of guitarists".

I don't find anything that he has done (at least since his "re-launch") to be that impressive.

In fact, I'd say the same about any guitarist who's currently in the "pop world"....

Definitely wasn't the case 20/30 years ago and before....

But I do agree that Santana does have a very distinctive tone and that goes a long way...mucho respect!

I agree with ChiliD's list, and all the additions, and would also like to add two additions of my own:

Hank Marvin (that signature Echorec tone is INSTANTLY recognisable!)

Prince

p.s. of all the guitarists mentioned, I think Brian May's tone is THE most instantly recognisable, simply because of that awesome 0, 800ms, 1600ms delay / triple amp set-up he's had forever.

sulamith · #11 11-16-2002, 12:56 AM

Thanks for all this wonderful input and opinions, guys!
Since I mentioned this earlier in this thread, I just wanted to follow up for anyone that might be interested......
We are now the proud owners of a sweet youth size Signature Greg Bennett-designed black gloss-finish guitar.
My son walked around wearing it and strumming it all evening.

Lessons start tomorrow.

Right now it's cute.

I hope we're as in love with it five lessons from now as we are at the moment! lol!!

estranged4life · #12 11-16-2002, 12:58 AM

"p.s. of all the guitarists mentioned, I think Brian May's tone is THE most instantly recognisable, simply because of that awesome 0, 800ms, 1600ms delay / triple amp set-up he's had forever."

...I love Brian May's tone, Which is like ya said is Most recognisable (He has been rumoured to be playing some of the leads on the "Maybe-this-decade" Guns 'N Roses release "Chinese Democracy")

...As for a rhythm player I always thought Tom Scholz of Boston had a very recognisable tone...But I guess those SRD "Rockmans" & Les Pauls caused that tone, Brian J.

jeffles · #13 11-22-2002, 04:31 PM

Keith Richards wasn't even the best guitar player in the Rolling Stones, mick taylor had that distinction.
Santana is a great player but i don't like much of his new stuff, especially the collaborations with the likes of Michelle Branch, etc. Santana isn't a marketing genius, Clive Davis is. Davis was the head of Arista records who concocted "Supernatural".

chiliD · #14 11-22-2002, 06:49 PM

Quote:

As for a rhythm player I always thought Tom Scholz of Boston had a very recognisable tone...But I guess those SRD "Rockmans" & Les Pauls caused that tone

Well, since Tom Scholz was the person who DESIGNED AND PATENTED the "Rockman" amp, I guess that would be true.

Both Mark Knopfler & Billy Gibbons (of ZZ Top) were avid users of the Rockman amp (used as a pre-amp), too.

Main (but, not the ONLY) examples of each:

Knopfler: "Money For Nothing" (from "Brothers In Arms album)

Gibbons: "Rough Boy" (from the "Afterburner" album)

estranged4life · #15 11-22-2002, 06:52 PM

about Mr.Scholz and the "Rockmans", but I didnt know he sold SRD back in 1997 though, That was a surprise to me to find out...Brian J.

PS-I forgot to add that the whole "Afterburner" album by ZZ Top is one of my all-time favorite albums mainly due to the songs "Rough Boy" & "Stages"