Hell has frozen over......A "SAY YOU WILL" DOCUMENTARY!!!

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I remember reading that.
I also remember thinking that he should have asked for his money back!!!

For that and alot of other times he has paid people to make him look good

[SmthngOfADreamr]

I hope that just because Stevie wants her appearence touched up doesn't mean that she will also insist that some of the juiciest/bitchiest moments be edited out too. I'm hoping for some good Stevie/Lindsey fights and hopefully John McVie will be as funny as he is in the video snippet on the VBOFM CD. He definatly has an air of Ozzie about him that makes it hilarious.

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
They can do wonders these days. For example, Michael Jackson had the entire NYC concert a few years ago retouched frame by frame. In no way is Stevie as bad as Wacko Jacko (although she has attended his parties in the past ), I can see her wanting to look glamourous. Like it or not, her carefully crafted image helps sell her and their great great great music!!!!!

I know, check out the difference in Whitney's body weight!

She went from having to eat a few healthy pork sandwiches to only needing one.

[cliffdweller]

Originally posted by Johnny Stew
I guess we'll see how much validity the rumour has, when the documentary is released and we can compare the footage.

Also kind of surprises me that it would be a problem for her, since she probably could have easily blocked the documentary from ever being filmed (or even released) if she was really that worried about how she'd look on camera.

Touch-ups seem unnecessary to me, but if it's true, then more power to Stevie, I guess.
Who doesn't want to look as good as they can?

Exactly. And the fact that she hasn't had oodles of plastic surgery is a damn miracle in the business she's in, especially for women over 40. I applaud her for staying relatively natural, so if she wants her fake lighting and touch-ups then by all means let the woman have them!!

[misterbug]

as bad as Wacko Jacko

I also remember thinking that he should have asked for his money back!!!

For that and alot of other times he has paid people to make him look good

I noticed that the mere mention of the name "Michael Jackson" resulted in the array of anti-MJ comments quoted above. I know this is a Fleetwood Mac forum, but somehow the anti-MJ sentiment leaked in, which has opened the door for me to defend MJ. The most annoying aspect of anti-MJ comments in general is that they are seldom if ever founded in fact--they only make grave assumptions.

1. The first negative comment, within the same post as the first mention of MJ, is "as bad as Wacko Jacko". This unfortunate nickname implies that MJ is "crazy," a term most commonly used by laypeople to describe people exhibiting sociopathic, psychopathic, and or schizophrenic behavior. However, MJ has never exhibited any such "crazy" or "wacko" behavior. He is, at worst, eccentric.

And before criticizing MJ's lifestyle choices, let's not forget that MJ had no real childhood to speak of, that he was always performing in front of 1000s, his father forbade him to play games, made fun of MJ at every opportunity, and also beat him with such objects as a belt and an electrical cord. In fact, the abuse was so horrible that it eventually caused MJ to gag upon even seeing his father; this is a psychosomatic reaction that clearly shows the severe psychological trauma inflicted on young MJ. This also helps explain MJ's current childlike behavior and attitude.

The comment I quoted also suggests MJ looks bad. Well, that is nothing but a subjective opinion. Why not, instead, say he looks "unconventional"?

2. The second and third comments imply that MJ does not look good AND that "looking good" was his goal. Before and especially after his first surgery (nose), around the time of Thriller (ca 1984), MJ was quite good-looking by conventional standards. So if he kept getting all of this surgery, while being a heartthrob, I think the conclusion is that MJ was not trying to "look good". Specifically, I think MJ is trying to look like Peter Pan (the eternal child) as part of his attempt to experience a childhood he never had. It fits not only his apparent psychology (witness some of the comments he made on the ABC special: "I am Peter Pan at heart", e.g.), it also fits physical evidence: for instance, his ranch suggests strongly, and above anything else, that he is trying to recapture a childhood he never had.

I also suggest you visit this website: geocities.com/plabcures/peterpan.html . It presents a convincing photo-analysis of MJ's face.

Ok. Flame away. I'll be waiting to defend my arguments and face more anti-MJ commentary.

[strandinthewind]

Originally posted by misterbug
I noticed that the mere mention of the name "Michael Jackson" resulted in the array of anti-MJ comments quoted above. I know this is a Fleetwood Mac forum, but somehow the anti-MJ sentiment leaked in, so I hope you people let me have MY say and defend him against these comments.

1. The first negative comment, within the same post as the first mention of MJ, is "as bad as Wacko Jacko". This unfortunate nickname implies that MJ is "crazy". However, there is no evidence that he is. He is, at worst, eccentric. Let's not forget that MJ had no real childhood to speak of, that he was always performing in front of 1000s, his father forbade him to play games, made fun of MJ at every opportunity, and also beat him with such objects as a belt and an electrical cord. The comment also suggests MJ looks bad. Well, that is subjective. Why not, instead, say he looks "unconventional"?

2. The second and third comments imply that MJ does not look good, AND that "looking good" was his goal. Before and especially after his first surgery (nose), around the time of Thriller (ca 1984), MJ was quite good-looking by conventional standards. So if he kept getting all of this surgery, while being a heartthrob, I think the conclusion is that MJ was not trying to "look good". Specifically, I think MJ is trying to look like Peter Pan (the eternal child) as part of his attempt to experience a childhood he never had. It fits not only his apparent psychology (witness some of the comments he made on the ABC special: "I am Peter Pan at heart", e.g.), it also fits physical evidence: for instance, his ranch suggests strongly that he is trying to recapture a childhood he never had. I also suggest you visit this website: geocities.com/plabcures/peterpan.html. It presents a convincing photo-analysis of MJ's face.

Ok. Flame away. I'll be waiting to defend my arguments.

No flames, everybody has the right to their opinion.

[dissention]

Originally posted by strandinthewind
No flames, everybody has the right to their opinion.

Yup. And my opinion is that he's crazier than a sh*t house rat.

I find it very implausible that he had all of this surgery (from the 80s up until recently) to look less attractive. And he obvioulsy isn't on the same playing level as the majority of adults because adults with morals do not sleep with children that aren't theirs in their bed.

Just my opinion and I respect yours.

[misterbug]

No flames, everybody has the right to their opinion.

Yes. The unfortunate thing is that the prevailing American opinion of MJ, parts of which I referred to above, is not fact based, yet, over time, it has come to be accepted as fact. Although many people dismiss my "opinion" about MJ without hearing my support, I feel that my statements about MJ correspond far better with the facts.

Yup. And my opinion is that he's crazier than a sh*t house rat.

I find it very implausible that he had all of this surgery (from the 80s up until recently) to look less attractive. And he obvioulsy isn't on the same playing level as the majority of adults because adults with morals do not sleep with children that aren't theirs in their bed.

I don't understand what evidence you have to suggest he is crazy, rather than eccentric.

I am not suggesting that MJ had surgery to look less attractive, but rather, that he had it to change his appearance to a more child like one.

He is not on the same playing level as adults: yes, that is true. He is, emotionally, a child. To him, sleeping with children is like sleeping with peers. He has stated that to him, "sleeping with" and "bed" do NOT have a sexual connotation. To MJ, sleeping with children is like having a sleepover. If MJ were 35 years younger physically, nobody would have a problem letting him participate in a sleepover. But people do not understand that, despite his physical advancement beyond the childhood years (which he is trying to counterattack surgically), he is still EMOTIONALLY the same as a child.

The old cliche of "don't judge a book by its cover" is especially apt here, since MJ's physical age is far beyond his emotional age, a discrepancy that came as a result of horrible abuse, and compulsory performance. He never could sleep over with friends as a physical AND emotional child because he was basically imprisoned by an abusive father. Now, he is physically an adult but STILL AN EMOTIONAL CHILD. And without a tyrannical guardian, he is trying to experience childhood again.

So, I do not understand why this behavior is immoral. It is just different and unexpected in our society. It is not immoral--he is not doing anything wrong. If acting like a child is what he needs to be happy, well, just let him be.

[dissention]

Just to let everyone know, Jacko will be interviewed by Ed Bradley on 60 Minutes on December 17.

[Johnny Stew]

No flames here, either.

But if the surgeries weren't performed to make him look "better," why the need to spend thousands of dollars to re-touch a performance to cover the negative side-effects of one-too-many trips to the plastic surgeon?

And while it's not by business, but out of concern for a fellow human-being, I do have to wonder about Michael's sanity.

Legal issues aside, I do believe people take advantage of his eccentricities, and I think it's a damn shame that no one... family, friends, assistants, or even the plastic surgeons he has gone to... seems to have ever stepped-in and said, "Michael, you're going too far."

Certainly a licensed plastic surgeon should have some idea of how much work you can do on someone's face, before problems would arise (such as the reports that the tip of his nose has caved-in, and he must use putty to fill it in).

And if folks have tried to intervene and talk Michael out of the continual plastic surgery, then, again, you have to wonder about the emotional stability of this person.

A lot of people have had difficult childhoods, or were forced to grow up faster than a child should have to, but chose to face their past and were able to move on.
Michael unfortunately seems to have retreated into his fantasy world, and it's a damn pity that no one seems to have tried to help him.

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by dissention
Yup. And my opinion is that he's crazier than a sh*t house rat.

I find it very implausible that he had all of this surgery (from the 80s up until recently) to look less attractive. And he obvioulsy isn't on the same playing level as the majority of adults because adults with morals do not sleep with children that aren't theirs in their bed.

Just my opinion and I respect yours.

Amen!!!!

Wacca Jacko is disgusting in so many ways, I don't understand how anyone could defend someone who hangs their baby out a window, sleeps with little boys, etc.

I also don't understand why so many musicians adore him. If you saw the Christine clip, she also said how much she liked Thriller and that it was a classic. That may be true, but I don't think anyone should promote his albums after we have learned about all this.

[CarneVaca]

Originally posted by misterbug
And before criticizing MJ's lifestyle choices, let's not forget that MJ had no real childhood to speak of, that he was always performing in front of 1000s, his father forbade him to play games, made fun of MJ at every opportunity, and also beat him with such objects as a belt and an electrical cord.

Give me a f**king break! Kids have grown under great strain and hardship all over the world and didn't become as much of a plucking weirdo as this nut. The man (???) has admitted he sleeps with children in his bed. Whether something untoward happened (yeah, like it didn't!) his admission that little children were sleeping in his bed is enough for me to want to gag. It simply shouldn't be happening.

Do you have children?

[diamondsnake]

Originally posted by CarneVaca
Give me a f**king break! Kids have grown under great strain and hardship all over the world and didn't become as much of a plucking weirdo as this nut. The man (???) has admitted he sleeps with children in his bed. Whether something untoward happened (yeah, like it didn't!) his admission that little children were sleeping in his bed is enough for me to want to gag. It simply shouldn't be happening.

Do you have children?

Amen! he should be sent to prison ASAP!

[misterbug]

But if the surgeries weren't performed to make him look "better," why the need to spend thousands of dollars to re-touch a performance to cover the negative side-effects of one-too-many trips to the plastic surgeon?

We DO know MJ had the show retouched. BUT do we know WHY? Where is his statement that "I had this retouched to cover up plastic surgery side effects."? It could be that he was having skin blotches from vitiligo, a dermatological disease he has, touched up. Or it could be something else.

[dissention]

Originally posted by misterbug
We DO know MJ had the show retouched. BUT do we know WHY? Where is his statement that "I had this retouched to cover up plastic surgery side effects."? It could be that he was having skin blotches from vitiligo, a dermatological disease he has, touched up. Or it could be something else.

If you believe that his case of Vitiligo is as extreme as he says. I don't. Have you seen the pictures of him in court where his nose is FALLING OFF? The fact that he has had so many surgeries makes one question his sanity. I saw bits and pieces of the broadcast before it was touched up and there were no blotches, just a sad man who blames his lack of childhood for all his problems. Lame excuse, Jacko. I feel no sympathy for him because he's done this all himself. Don't you remember when he leaked those pictures of himself, sleeping in a tank? Don't you remember that the little boy who accused him of molestation back in '93 described in detail the many genital discolorations Jacko had and the the police concurred? So many crazy things have happened that there is no way he is sane.