I Know I'm Not Wrong CD mix?

[mediumbluemetal]

Originally Posted by drzubritsky

Hmmm, the mystery deepens. IKINW on my Tusk vinyl LP (possibly not an original 1979 pressing but not a recent reissue) is definitely a stereo mix. L/R separation is easily audible immediately from the intro, with a percussion instrument (sounds like a wood block) only in the right channel and an acoustic guitar track only in the left channel. Based on your observations above, it's possible that some LP pressings did indeed get past quality control with a mastering error causing IKINW to be in mono, but maybe the error was only made on certain pressings or was corrected on later pressings.

With that said, the stereo mix on my vinyl LP is definitely different than the initial CD release as is widely known. One quick way to hear the mix difference is when the chorus starts at the :49 mark and the CD mix contains background vocals that aren't present on the LP mix.

BTW, the hi-rez version available on HDTracks contains the original stereo LP mix of IKINW.

That's so bizarre! So maybe there are 3 versions of IKINW instead of 2. It sounds like there's an early release mono mix, an early release stereo mix, and the later stereo mix that's shown up on CDs and the 2013 Tusk vinyl pressing.

I listened to the HDTracks preview, and to me that sounds a LOT like my original pressing LP. I couldn't tell on my laptop speakers if that mix has stereo effects or not, but I know that my LP does not.

To complicate things further, I haven't heard the distinct wood block that was mentioned in any of the versions. However, on my 2 CD Tusk reissue, there are 3 versions/demos of the song. One of them is labeled "alternate" and it starts out with a clear wood block. I wonder if that version somehow made it onto some of the albums? So much confusion for such a little song...

[iamnotafraid]

The Tusk Radio Special Sampler
had different mixes (I believe) of
these songs:

What Makes You Think You're The One
That's All For Everyone
Think About Me
I Know I'm Not Wrong
Honey Hi
Sisters Of The Moon

I've got one of these albums stored
away somewhere.

[shackin'up]

Oh, how interesting. I'm going to compare! I've got an original 1979 pressing of Tusk. I'll do the mono/stereo check too! By the way, i've always liked they 'original' vinyl mix more than the CD verslons. Maybe because I loved the original to deathmetalband for 6 years before the CD even existed. Ill check the grooves too. I think I remember that IKINW looked different from the rest.

Thanks for the insightful comments!!!!

[GJK]

Originally Posted by drzubritsky

Hmmm, the mystery deepens. IKINW on my Tusk vinyl LP (possibly not an original 1979 pressing but not a recent reissue) is definitely a stereo mix. L/R separation is easily audible immediately from the intro, with a percussion instrument (sounds like a wood block) only in the right channel and an acoustic guitar track only in the left channel. Based on your observations above, it's possible that some LP pressings did indeed get past quality control with a mastering error causing IKINW to be in mono, but maybe the error was only made on certain pressings or was corrected on later pressings.

With that said, the stereo mix on my vinyl LP is definitely different than the initial CD release as is widely known. One quick way to hear the mix difference is when the chorus starts at the :49 mark and the CD mix contains background vocals that aren't present on the LP mix.

BTW, the hi-rez version available on HDTracks contains the original stereo LP mix of IKINW.

'I know I'm not wrong' on my Tusk LP (definitely an original 1979, German pressing) is also in stereo; with a bit more percussion on the right channel and a distinctive rhythm guitar on the left. The somewhat simple, monotonous 'guitar solo' is at the left channel. There are no outstanding differences in the appearance of the grooves at the IKINW track. That said, the grooves from 'Never make me cry' do appear to differ a bit from the rest of the tracks.

And yes, when I bought the CD in the late eighties (also a German pressing), I immediately noticed that (the mix on) IKINW sounded different from the (original) vinyl version.

GJK (from the Netherlands)

[mediumbluemetal]

Hey guys--I've made a VERY interesting observation about "I Know I'm Not Wrong" on Tusk.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I have two copies of Tusk on vinyl. One is an original pressing, and the other is the 2013 reissue. The original pressing had the "mono" version of "Wrong," and the new reissue of Tusk played the "stereo" version of "Wrong" that's on most CD releases and digital downloads. (I use the terms "mono" and "stereo" lightly because even the "mono" version has stereo sound and stereo effects, it just lacks the stereo effects you can distinctly hear on CDs).

Yesterday, I did a major upgrade to my turntable. I replaced the cheap MM cartridge with a Denon 103 MC cartridge, and I moved from a built-in preamp to a standalone Cambridge Audio MC preamp. Tusk has always sounded amazing on vinyl, and I loaded the reissue copy to listen to on the new setup. Much to my amazement, the stereo effects on the new reissue copy have TOTALLY VANISHED! What?

That's right. My 2013 reissue of Tusk now sounds EXACTLY like my original pressing of Tusk with regards to "Wrong." What the hell is that about? All of the extra sound effects from the stereo/CD version are now totally absent. How is that possible? I played with the counterweight, adding and subtracting tracking force. I played with the anti-skate settings, going all the way from 0 to 4. No amount of adjusting would produce the missing sound effects.

I took the Tusk reissue to an old linear tracking turntable that I have just to verify that I didn't somehow install the new cartridge incorrectly, and sure enough, the stereo mix is totally absent, even on another player. How is that possible? If it weren't so much work, I'd reinstall the old cheapo MM cartridge in my primary turntable just to see if it would still pick up the stereo effects.

So here's my new interpretation of the "mono" versus "stereo" mix debate regarding "I Know I'm Not Wrong." After this experience, my hypothesis is that all Tusk pressings--including the originals from 1979--originally came with stereo sound, just like CDs and digital downloads today. And somehow, for whatever reason, that extra stereo mix track must be super fragile, and it either A) gets ground/worn off by the stylus, or B) it can only be detected by certain styli.

My thought is that the stereo effects are somehow ground off. And I say this because my old cartridge/stylus played mono on the old LP and stereo on the new LP. Obviously if there was any stereo effect left on the old LP, the same stylus could have picked it up.

I am totally shocked though. This puts a whole new perspective on the debate about which version of the song was original. I maintain that the song ALWAYS was meant to have the stereo effects, but for whatever reason, the stereo effects get worn off after only a few plays. I'd LOVE to hear other thoughts on this.

[fleetwoodguy79]

Really neat stuff that I'm reading in this thread. And especially, welcome -- mediumbluemetal!

Here are my theories...

I do have an original version of the Tusk album, the HDTrack, and the CD reissue... I agree that the stereo mix is present on both major mixes (LP / HDT, CD reissue). There is clear separation which does not denote a mono mix. If you perform an analysis (using Adobe Audition, for instance), it's clear that sonic differences in the waveforms exist between the L and R channels. So, what gives?

Well, now let me throw my own speculation into the mix... I think that Lindsey had something to do with the reissue / "remix". Why, you may ask? Look at the 2004 performance of IKINW on the SYW tour. The chorus background vocals ("ohhhaaahh.... waaaahaaaaa") were clearly a focal point of that song for the 2004 performance. Those background vocals did NOT exist on the original LP, but did exist on the reissue (ironically, focal point is the R channel in the stereo mix). I think Lindsey either tweaked the mix for this release, or used an alternate mix for the reissue.

Also... while there certainly could have been a mastering error on the orignal LP, do you think that the band (especially Lindsey, given this was his brainchild) would have permitted this? It just seems highly unlikely.

I love root cause analysis. This thread is awesome.

[mediumbluemetal]

Here's my question though... if the first time you played an original issue Tusk LP, and let's say it did contain the "extra" stereo mix sounds, but they quickly were "worn off" by the stylus, would you remember?

Knowing about the debate about which version of IKINW, I still almost missed the fact that the extra stereo mix sounds were suddenly missing entirely from my reissue LP. If you didn't even know about the controversy when Tusk was released, is it possible that you didn't realize that your stylus was wearing away some of the stereo elements? And then for years and years after, you became accustomed to the song without those elements, thinking this was the way the song was supposed to sound?

My interpretation of the song has TOTALLY changed starting last night. Previously, I thought there were just different mixes. Simple. But that doesn't explain why my reissue vinyl started out the first 5 plays sounding just like the CD version, but now it sounds just like the original release LP.

There are only two possible explanations for why the reissue no longer sounds like the CD version... either A) the stylus wore down those grooves, or B) the new stylus has a different tip that won't pick up those grooves.

Either way, the fact that my reissue has sounded at different times exactly like the CD version and also like the original release LP version says to me something is odd about the song. It doesn't add up. Do you think Reprise records would reply to me if I emailed them about the reissue?

[Johnny Stew]

Originally Posted by mediumbluemetal

If you didn't even know about the controversy when Tusk was released, is it possible that you didn't realize that your stylus was wearing away some of the stereo elements?

The worn grooves theory is very interesting, but it doesn't explain why the original cassette has the "LP mix." (For the record, the HD Tracks digital version also has the so-called "LP Mix.")

This gets curiouser and curiouser!

[mediumbluemetal]

Is it possible that the cassette and HD Tracks versions could have been made off of a worn master?

If my turntable cut down the stereo effects in just 5 or so plays, then obviously that layer of sound is very susceptible to wear.

And that's what I'm so stuck on. I mean that reissue sounds 200% exactly like my original release Tusk album now, and before, it sounded 200% like the CD version. Too many things don't add up for there to be different versions of the song:

1) The CD version of the song sounds JUST like the original LP release IF you only listen to one channel of the CD's sound (like if you listen through just one headphone).

2) The reissue of the LP in 2013 sounded JUST like the CD version on the first few plays, including all of the stereo sound effects.

3) After several plays, the 2013 reissue now sounds JUST like the original 1979 issue, without the CD version sound effects anymore.

To me, it seems like a fault somewhere in the mastering process. Regardless of which mix is "correct" or if there even are mixes, those sound effects shouldn't have vaporized in so few plays. But they did. And since they did on my 2013 copy, couldn't the same have happened on all of those 1979 copies? If the stylus slowly cut away those sound effects over the course of 10 plays, who would really ever notice? And then for the next 30+ years, everyone became accustomed to the stylus-neutered version of the song.

I also wonder if my new stylus didn't cut the stereo effects out of my reissue. My original MM cartridge was set at 2 grams, but my new MC cartridge required 2.5 grams. I wonder if the extra .5 grams was all it took to obliterate that stereo track. Maybe if I'd left the weight at 2 grams, the stereo effects would have lasted for a few more plays before they vaporized. I also wonder if skating force has anything to do with it. The inner-most grooves (like the location of IKINW) suffer from the most skating force, which is applied to only one channel of sound (potentially the channel containing those stereo effects). With my old cartridge, I had the anti-skating adjustment turned as high as it would go because the needle seemed to have too much inward force when it dropped on the record. So for those first 5 plays of IKINW, my turntable was putting like almost no skating force on one of those stereo tracks. When I installed the new cartridge, I reduced the anti-skating adjustment in half according to the cartridge's instructions, which put twice the pressure on one of the stereo tracks of that song. That, plus the added counterweight .5 grams might be what killed it. But it would have died on any turntable. I am tempted to buy another 2013 copy, reduce the counterweight, and crank to anti-skating adjustment back up and then count how many plays I get out of the song before it loses the stereo effects.

Idk. It is definitely a mystery though why the cassette and HD Tracks versions sound like the original LP version when the original LP version would appear to have possibly lost its stereo effects gradually.

Here's a thought: I purchased an early release but never played Tusk album on Amazon a year or two before Tusk was reissued. I'm not sure that it was sold in 1979, but it's certainly not a reissue. I had planned to keep it just to keep it. Should I crack it open to see how it plays? Is it worth it?

[Iamwilliame]

Originally Posted by mediumbluemetal

Is it possible that the cassette and HD Tracks versions could have been made off of a worn master?

If my turntable cut down the stereo effects in just 5 or so plays, then obviously that layer of sound is very susceptible to wear.

And that's what I'm so stuck on. I mean that reissue sounds 200% exactly like my original release Tusk album now, and before, it sounded 200% like the CD version. Too many things don't add up for there to be different versions of the song:

1) The CD version of the song sounds JUST like the original LP release IF you only listen to one channel of the CD's sound (like if you listen through just one headphone).

2) The reissue of the LP in 2013 sounded JUST like the CD version on the first few plays, including all of the stereo sound effects.

3) After several plays, the 2013 reissue now sounds JUST like the original 1979 issue, without the CD version sound effects anymore.

To me, it seems like a fault somewhere in the mastering process. Regardless of which mix is "correct" or if there even are mixes, those sound effects shouldn't have vaporized in so few plays. But they did. And since they did on my 2013 copy, couldn't the same have happened on all of those 1979 copies? If the stylus slowly cut away those sound effects over the course of 10 plays, who would really ever notice? And then for the next 30+ years, everyone became accustomed to the stylus-neutered version of the song.

I also wonder if my new stylus didn't cut the stereo effects out of my reissue. My original MM cartridge was set at 2 grams, but my new MC cartridge required 2.5 grams. I wonder if the extra .5 grams was all it took to obliterate that stereo track. Maybe if I'd left the weight at 2 grams, the stereo effects would have lasted for a few more plays before they vaporized. I also wonder if skating force has anything to do with it. The inner-most grooves (like the location of IKINW) suffer from the most skating force, which is applied to only one channel of sound (potentially the channel containing those stereo effects). With my old cartridge, I had the anti-skating adjustment turned as high as it would go because the needle seemed to have too much inward force when it dropped on the record. So for those first 5 plays of IKINW, my turntable was putting like almost no skating force on one of those stereo tracks. When I installed the new cartridge, I reduced the anti-skating adjustment in half according to the cartridge's instructions, which put twice the pressure on one of the stereo tracks of that song. That, plus the added counterweight .5 grams might be what killed it. But it would have died on any turntable. I am tempted to buy another 2013 copy, reduce the counterweight, and crank to anti-skating adjustment back up and then count how many plays I get out of the song before it loses the stereo effects.

Idk. It is definitely a mystery though why the cassette and HD Tracks versions sound like the original LP version when the original LP version would appear to have possibly lost its stereo effects gradually.

Here's a thought: I purchased an early release but never played Tusk album on Amazon a year or two before Tusk was reissued. I'm not sure that it was sold in 1979, but it's certainly not a reissue. I had planned to keep it just to keep it. Should I crack it open to see how it plays? Is it worth it?

PLAY IT!!!

Let me also add, I have a Tusk LP purchased in 1980. It always had the so called "mono" mix. I bought an import cassette around 1986 that also had this mix. My original CD (the one with the Sara edit) bought sometime in the 90s was the first time I ever heard the version with all the bells and whistles. I will say, I love this version but sonically it doesn't seem fully recorded in the late 70s. It sounds like a remix using techniques not widely available in 78-79. What is the earliest verifiable appearance of this version of the song?

Nice topic, btw! Someone needs to pin LB down on this one.

[mediumbluemetal]

Blast! I opened my "sealed" original issue Tusk, and it appears that it was previously played. There were fingerprints on the vinyl, and scratches on the lead-in groove. Someone resealed it in plastic and sold it as NOS. Stupid!

Well, needless to say, this proves nothing since the record has been played before. IKINW sounds just like all of the other vinyl copies, but again, if it's really just a used copy like it looks like it is, then that doesn't tell us anything.

It just drives me insane that my 2013 copy started out having those new effects and then lost them. It makes no sense to me how it happened, and it still makes me think that the same thing could have happened to the original releases, too.

Maybe a heavy tonearm and/or heavy skating forces can erase the extra sounds on the first play? Remember, I played my 2013 Tusk like 5 times with no sound degradation using lower tracking force and more anti-skating. Then the very first time I played the 2013 copy with a higher tracking force and less anti-skating with my new cartridge, the stereo sounds were gone... it didn't play them even once, even though I'd heard them the last time I played the record.

I need to buy another 2013 copy I guess. I'm not sure of exactly which variables to toy with, but I'd really like to see what happens to that track.