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[Lee]

I watched most of the debate & fell asleep at the very end. I do not like Sarah Palin & I believe Joe won the debate anyway.

Tina Fey is a dead ringer for Sarah Palin. That was a funny skit last night & I love Queen Latifah. She is hilarious.

Lee

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by vermicious knid

"Anti-Vietnam war activist" is a very nice way of describing William Ayers. And it's not so benign as Obama just living next door to him. Obama had his "coming out" party, so to speak, at William Ayers' house. It was the event in the nineties where Obama was personally ushered into the world of Chicago politics. They served on the same board together for five years, and it wasn't by happenstance. They had a significant relationship. Obama acts like they weren't close, but they had a close enough personal relationship for Obama to read and endorse a book written by Ayers.

Well said and very accurate. Personally, I think there is not much of a story there because all they really did contact wise (in a repeated manner) was serve on that board together, which is not dispositive of a personal relationship that qualifies as "pallin around." In fact, that mostly tangential relationship is commonplace in that world.

True, Obama praised Ayers' book "A Kind and Just Parent: The Children of Juvenile Court." But, that book hardly is a terroristic act. Ayers taught offenders in Chicago's juvenile court system. The book is a "searing and timely account of the juvenile court system" (www.nytimes.com) -- In the book, Ayers compares the U.S. to South African apartheid and dismisses the notion the U.S. is a just nation while questioning whether America should maintain a prison system. That book, while clearly radical, is bascially calling for a better penal system for juvenilles in America. Again, hardly terroristic. Here is a link to some reviwes of the book, which I suggest people actually read before making a judgement on it http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/pro...283155&s=books

As for McCain throwing stones, he had better be careful. McCain was let off of the hook with a slap on the wrist because of his manipulation of the media and his selling out of his co-conspirators in the Keating investigation in the late 1980's and early 1990's. The facts of that situation condensed were that McCain and the other four Senators had substantially and improperly interfered with the FHLBB in its investigation of Lincoln Savings, which Keating headed, stole millions from, ran into the ground via fraud, and cost thousands their money. McCain eventually was cleared of having acted improperly. Instead, he was criticized for having exercised "poor judgment." In sum, McCain met with Keating many times and tried to help Keating out by stalling an investigation into the S&L, all allegedly solely because Keating was merely a constituent who employed many people. Despite and in direct contrast to that hollow excuse:

McCain and Keating had become personal friends following their initial contacts in 1981,[11] and McCain was the closest socially to Keating of the five senators.[31] Like DeConcini, McCain considered Keating a constituent as he lived in Arizona.[25] Between 1982 and 1987, McCain had received $112,000 in political contributions from Keating and his associates.[32] In addition, McCain's wife Cindy McCain and her father Jim Hensley had invested $359,100 in a Keating shopping center in April 1986, a year before McCain met with the regulators. McCain, his family, and their baby-sitter had made nine trips at Keating's expense, sometimes aboard Keating's jet. Three of the trips were made during vacations to Keating's opulent Bahamas retreat at Cat Cay. McCain did not pay Keating (in the amount of $13,433) for some of the trips until years after they were taken, when he learned that Keating was in trouble over Lincoln.[7][33]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keating_Five

That, along with McCain's repeated meeting with Keating, proves that McCain was in bed with Keating and that Keating was not merely an important constituent as alleged by McCain

Here are some articles on the Keating Five:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/electi...-chapter7.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/1..._n_130612.html

http://mccainkeatingfive.com/ (clearly biased, but full of accurate quotes, etc.)

In the end, McCain's actions during the Keating Five scandal, even if just poor judgement (which McCain admits) - will ring far louder and relevant in today's failing banking system than Obama's clearly tangential relationship with a man who did a bad thing when Obama was thousands of miles away and only eight years old.

In any event, read the facts of both and judge for yourself who exercised the larger incident of poor judgement and whose poor judgement had the worst effect. Obama's poor judgement (and clearly it was) in tangential associations affected no one adversely in that the charity supposedly has helped thousands. McCain, on the other hand, had a significant part in bilking thousands out of their money.

Finally and on edit, I think the far more important point is that Palin implies Obama consorts with Muslim terrorists, a situation she wants to create to fuel peoples' suspicions that Obama is a Muslim, which is untrue . Plain does not and cannot set out the facts as I did and let people judge for themselves. If she did, people would see her innuendo is patently incorrect. But, Palin's ticket quickly is losing any chance of election. So, they now need to lie by innuendo to save themselves. So, in a move straight from the Rove playbook, they falsely attack character instead of discussing the issues because they apparently cannot win on the issues. Again, if character comes into play, McCain will be called out on the carpet for the Keating scandal (in which has admitted doing something wrong and was all but censured for it) in a time when McCain already is seen as a big friend to helping corporate CEO's at the expense of the common man in a falied R economy. McCain also has apologized for using poor judgement in refusing the MLK holiday and for acknowledging that flying the confederate flag (which he ackowledged people viewed as a heritage thing) over the NC state capital. If Palin wants this debate, so be it.

Food for thought.

[estranged4life]

Sorry, politics arent on my schedule when it is MLB playoff time...

And I dont see 'em being there AFTER the World Series either.

[strandinthewind]

As for the debate, Biden clearly won it on the facts.

The R's praise Palin because the bar was set so low for her in the first place after her disasterous interviews with Couric and others, save for Hannity, who went after her as if supporting her rhetoric in an info - mercial (look at how well that vacuum gets the dirt ) -- I mean that Palin did not again look like a complete idiot was where the bar was set.

Palin also clearly lied about Obama. Just go to factcheck to see all about that. And, when called on those lies, she just smiled. Biden also had his share of inaccuracies, which that site confirms, though I submit Biden's inaccuracies were not as bold faced as Palin's.

Instead of answering the questions, Palin mostly tried to assert that she is for Joe Six Pack and the Soccer Moms out there. To me, that rang hollow when standing next to the blue collar Biden

Palin also made it seem like knowing the law, the working of Congress, and National foreign policy were mere mostly unimportant incidentals to her. She implied that because she is some sort of outsider "maverick," that should be enough for the American people to support her even though she layed out little detail regarding McCain's plans. She asserted that Gidget esq. or Call Me Madame esq. self portrayal would be enough to get her through a complex negotiation with, say, North Korea. She also fails to say anything other than she will reform Washington. No details regarding how McCain and she will do this have been offered in any significant manner or in any manner that separates them from Obama. That anyone believes her without any details rather astounds me.

Moreover, Plain's running mate is a clear Washington insider who voted 95% with W and ate his words about tax cuts during war time for a better election position. All of this makes her reply about Joe looking to the past instead of the future nonsensical at best and an outright lie at the worst. The facts are McCain is the same as W 95% of the time last year ( http://www.factcheck.org/askfactchec...oted_with.html ) and McCain's platform all but mirrors the RNC platform, which consistently is W's platform. In sum, while McCain may have been a maverick in the past, he has shedded that image to get elected.

Finally, I took her as talking down to blue collar America as opposed to talking to them.

[macpai]

I very much agree with you.

But interviews showed people on the fence did like her on the basis of her simplicity. It disturbs me deeply that someone who they didn't have to try hard at all to spoof on SNL could bethiscloseto the vice presidency, let alone the presidency.

[jannieC]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Finally, I took her as talking down to blue collar America as opposed to talking to them.

Yes, I agree. And it is disturbing to me to think that many people buy her shtick.

[estranged4life]

Originally Posted by jannieC

Yes, I agree. And it is disturbing to me to think that many people buy her shtick.

MANY are buying into it.

MSN had on their home page, the evening of the debate, that she may have been the winner of the debate.

Couldn't tell ya who won that debate, But I can tell ya the CUBS choked!!!

[macpai]

She came nowhere near winning that debate. She either avoided the question and went on to talk about whatever she wanted to AND/OR she chided Obama for voting a certain way on issues in which her running partner did the same. So what is she proving?

[David]

She be a poopy-poo pie.

But these folk be better:

[strandinthewind]

Hey - who's on first?

[rubytuesday]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

As for the debate, Biden clearly won it on the facts.

The R's praise Palin because the bar was set so low for her in the first place after her disasterous interviews with Couric and others, save for Hannity, who went after her as if supporting her rhetoric in an info - mercial (look at how well that vacuum gets the dirt ) -- I mean that Palin did not again look like a complete idiot was where the bar was set.

Palin also clearly lied about Obama. Just go to factcheck to see all about that. And, when called on those lies, she just smiled. Biden also had his share of inaccuracies, which that site confirms, though I submit Biden's inaccuracies were not as bold faced as Palin's.

Instead of answering the questions, Palin mostly tried to assert that she is for Joe Six Pack and the Soccer Moms out there. To me, that rang hollow when standing next to the blue collar Biden

Palin also made it seem like knowing the law, the working of Congress, and National foreign policy were mere mostly unimportant incidentals to her. She implied that because she is some sort of outsider "maverick," that should be enough for the American people to support her even though she layed out little detail regarding McCain's plans. She asserted that Gidget esq. or Call Me Madame esq. self portrayal would be enough to get her through a complex negotiation with, say, North Korea. She also fails to say anything other than she will reform Washington. No details regarding how McCain and she will do this have been offered in any significant manner or in any manner that separates them from Obama. That anyone believes her without any details rather astounds me.

Moreover, Plain's running mate is a clear Washington insider who voted 95% with W and ate his words about tax cuts during war time for a better election position. All of this makes her reply about Joe looking to the past instead of the future nonsensical at best and an outright lie at the worst. The facts are McCain is the same as W 95% of the time last year ( http://www.factcheck.org/askfactchec...oted_with.html ) and McCain's platform all but mirrors the RNC platform, which consistently is W's platform. In sum, while McCain may have been a maverick in the past, he has shedded that image to get elected.

Finally, I took her as talking down to blue collar America as opposed to talking to them.

Yeah I watched most of it and her responses were so vacant and just standard rhetoric but his contained a lot of detail. I agree also about her coming off well just because the bar was so low for her that simply being able to respond at all made her look good. I know there's only vice presidents but I would feel comfortable with him as the president but her as president scares the crap out of me.

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by rubytuesday

Yeah I watched most of it and her responses were so vacant and just standard rhetoric but his contained a lot of detail. I agree also about her coming off well just because the bar was so low for her that simply being able to respond at all made her look good. I know there's only vice presidents but I would feel comfortable with him as the president but her as president scares the crap out of me.

Of the four, Biden is the only one that has a relatively clean reputation. The only thing I can think of is the plagarism "scandal," and if that is all, then he is as clean as the they come in that arena.

[estranged4life]

Originally Posted by strandinthewind

Hey - who's on first?

and the rest of the lineup:

First Base: Who
Second Base: What
Third base: I Don't Know
Left field: Why
Center Field: Because
Right field: Naturally
Pitcher: Tomorrow
Catcher: Today
Shortstop: I Don't Care

[BombaySapphire3]

Voting 95% of the time with Bush's policies is not the only thing McCain has in common with that ruinous Chimp..He will now begin to engage in the same brand of low road Rovian smear tactics,fear mongering and personal attacks that Bush and crew used on him back in the 2000 primary. So truly he would be but an extension of Bush in nearly every way..What a sad old man that he cannot win by selling himself and his ideas to the American people so he now has only this left to try and salvage his campaign.I just hope that the American people are not that stupid again.

[LukeA]