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  #31  
Old 02-12-2004, 03:16 PM
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chiliD chiliD is offline
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From everything I've read, they never did play as a quartet in those years...from the time of Jeremy's disappearance til Peter Green re-joined to finish that tour, the shows were cancelled/postponed.

COULD they have played San Bernardino BEFORE Jeremy went on his bookstore hike the day of their Whiskey-A-Go-Go gig?

Actually, again from everything I've read, from the time Danny joined the band in '68 until those two or three private party shows Fleetwood Mac did somewhere in the timeframe of 1991/92 as the quartet of Mick, John, Billy Burnette & Rick Vito, they never played live as a quartet.

If anyone has any confirming proof they did do some quartet shows then, please step forward.
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  #32  
Old 02-12-2004, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by chiliD
From everything I've read, they never did play as a quartet in those years...from the time of Jeremy's disappearance til Peter Green re-joined to finish that tour, the shows were cancelled/postponed.

COULD they have played San Bernardino BEFORE Jeremy went on his bookstore hike the day of their Whiskey-A-Go-Go gig?
From the Penguin "Tourbook" concert schedule for '71, the San Bernadino show was after Jeremy left the band, and the first show where Peter joined them (this matches the account I've read in Martin Celmins' book that the San Bernadino show was Peter's first one back with the band). And since Christine sings Jeremy's vocal part on "Purple Dancer" that certainly seems to confirm that Jeremy was already gone.

When did Bob Welch join the group? Did he tour with them later in '71? If that's the case, then I suppose this show could be from that period. Or did they hire another guitarist for live dates after Peter's brief time with them in '71 but before Bob joined? Although I'm pretty sure that there are two guitar players, it's tough to tell whether the one other than Danny could be Peter, Bob, or ??, since Danny plays nearly all of the lead guitar on the recording I have.
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  #33  
Old 02-12-2004, 04:27 PM
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Peter finished the tour that Jeremy bailed on. I'm almost 100% sure that they didn't tour again until after Welch had joined and Future Games released. If it is LATE 1971, then Welch could very well have been in the band for this recording.

I recall that it seemed like EVERYBODY played the Swing Auditorium back then. I remember even seeing that Fleetwood Mac played the Swing in 1975/76!! (probably the only SoCal FMac show in that timeframe that I DIDN'T attend)
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  #34  
Old 02-12-2004, 09:11 PM
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I listened a bit more to the San Bernadino disc a little while ago. I really can't tell who the second guitarist is - listening more closely I think all of the wah-wah playing is Danny (although there could be a very brief wah-wah passage by the other guitarist). Otherwise the other guitarist pretty much only plays rhythm, but there's some excellent rhythm guitar on the extended part "Tell Me All the Things You Do". The stereo separation is not too good, making it harder to pick out who's playing what.

If I had to guess between Peter and Bob, I'd guess Peter, but not having heard Bob's live guitar playing from this period I really can't tell. The fact that it's only Danny & Christine on vocals makes me think it's more likely to be Peter as well, but with so few tracks on this recording it's impossible to say for sure.

ChiliD, let us know what you think when you get a chance to listen to the disc. Hope Mario can shed some more light on this too!
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  #35  
Old 02-13-2004, 07:30 AM
dansven dansven is offline
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Hi

I have the San Bernadino show, and I am absolutely sure that it is Peter playing the second guitar. Just listen to the background guitar lines on Dragonfly - it HAS to be Peter.

Daniel
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  #36  
Old 02-13-2004, 06:35 PM
greenfire greenfire is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by chiliD

COULD they have played San Bernardino BEFORE Jeremy went on his bookstore hike the day of their Whiskey-A-Go-Go gig?
I apologize for interupting the flow of this thread but I am curious about what happened to Jeremy. One of my sources told me that he had been listening to some tapes of Pete's the night before he decided to leave, and he was so impressed by Pete and felt his songs/playing were only mediocre in comparison. Was he bummed out at this realization and the reason he decided to quit? This is just speculation, I don't know, but would like to know more about what happened here. Did he really just up and leave one morning or was it a revelation that he should leave the band and search out religion rather than the Blues. Again, I don't understand what happend? Does it mention in any of the books where the band might have seen something like this coming and were not totally shocked at his departure?

When he left, I'm guessing this was in CA someplace. Did he have a place to go or did he just book the first flight back to England? Did he hang around CA for awhile? Is this where the "Children of God" fits into this saga. It sounds like he really left the band in a jam not having the second guitarest and losing a major personality, like with Green, fans came to identify Fleetwood Mac with Green & Spencer.

Last edited by greenfire; 02-13-2004 at 06:41 PM..
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  #37  
Old 02-13-2004, 07:07 PM
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Rather than type the LONG story , here's a link to Jeremy's bio here on the Penguin.

Well, ok...here's the section that applies:

Two weeks into their tour to support the album, in L.A., Jeremy disappeared. He had left the hotel at about 3:00 to visit a bookstore on Hollywood Blvd, and on the street he was approached by a member of the religious group called The Children Of God. When the guitarist failed to show up for that evening's gig, the police were contacted, and five worry-filled days later Spencer was traced to the Children Of God headquarters, a warehouse in downtown L.A. In order to get in to see Spencer, manager Clifford Davis had to make up a story about Jeremy's wife, Fiona, being seriously ill. According to a Fleetwood Mac roadie who was at the scene, Spencer "was walking around in a daze like a zombie...he'd been brainwashed. It nearly killed me to see him." His head had been shaved and he now answered to the biblical name Jonathan. Davis and Spencer talked for 3 hours, while members of the cult rubbed Jeremy's arms and chanted 'Jesus Loves You' repeatedly. Apparently the guitarist had been doing some 'soul-searching': "Acid trips and dope, fame and fortune, pride and conceit, idleness and every other sin took hold of me from the start of the material success of the band." Much like Peter Green, Jeremy also felt unworthy of all the adoration he'd been receiving in the group. Ironically, to replace Spencer on their tour, which still had 6 weeks left, Fleetwood Mac begged Green to fly in and help them complete the shows, which he did.


Jeremy Spencer Bio at The Penguin

In Mick's book, he says that on the plane from San Francisco to LA, Jeremy had what I would describe as a mild panic attack about going to Los Angeles. It was not too long after the San Fernando Valley earthquake in 1971 which caused some MAJOR damage in the area. Jeremy (again, according to Mick's book) took it as some sort of evil "omen".

1971 San Fernando Earthquake
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Last edited by chiliD; 02-13-2004 at 07:17 PM..
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  #38  
Old 02-15-2004, 02:32 PM
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Hello again from Italy.

Here I am about the vexed question of "San Bernardino".

Firstly, sorry for the big mistake I did last time I posted...of course it was a FIVE piece line-up, but Iwas in hurry and this didn't help.

So, I've looked in the various book, Celmin's, Bob Brunning's,Mick Fleetwood's, also Pete Frame's Rock Family Trees, to try and check dates. Most state a date of mid February for Jeremy leaving the band. Allowing for the few days spent trying to get Jeremy back, plus 2/3/4 days for Peter to fly out, this would mean a first gig date of around say 21-25 February (not 24 March), Brunning's book state that the first gig Peter did was San Bernardino.

Again both Pete Frame and Bob Brunning state that Bob Welsh joined the band in April 1971, after the tour was over, so 24/3/71 date would appear to be late in the Green tour of six weeks. Welsh is certainly playing with the band by June 1971 as that is the start of the recording sessions for "Future Game".

Green stated he would only play if they did the sit list his way "Black Magic Woman" plus 3/4 jam session numbers.

Listening to the tape I have the following observations:

1- Most of the numbers are fairly short and structured (this goes against the Green jam session statement)

2- I'm sure I can detect a second guitar on some of the numbers, (which goes against the teory that Peter was off stage for this segment of the set)

3- Christine seems to do most of the talking/announcing and does mention both Danny and Mick, but not Jeremy.

4- "Get Like You Used To Be" and "I'd Rather Go Blind" come from Christine's Vhickenshack days.

5- My friend R.Jim Greaves saw the band in October/November 1970 (Christine was already playing with them) and at that time Jeremy stayed on stage for the whole set - unlike the Peter Green days.

6- Also at that time they played at least one long jam style number, often it was "Hi Ho Silver", from "Kiln House"

7- Just because there are no Jeremy Spencer songs on the tape does not mean he wasn't there. Most of his material was still Elmore and Elvis style, so They may not have recorded or edited out.

8- I know thre's is a fair amount of wah.wah guitar,but that sounds to be all in Danny's more "jagged" oe "choppy" style, not fluid enough for Peter.

On balance I don't believe this is what it claims to be. I don't think Peter is on the tape, although I find it very difficult to pick out Peter's playing on Grateful Dead, Clapton jams, ecc...

I suspect this is an earlier gig, before Jeremy left, passed off as one of the "Greeny gigs"

My only doubt is about some guitar playing on "Dragonfly" and I love so much Peter's Legacy that I'm more than happy for someone to prove me wrong, but until then I'll stick with Peter not playing.

Stay always Green....

Mario.
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  #39  
Old 02-15-2004, 03:09 PM
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Mario,

Thanks for your detailed info. I'm still not convinced that Peter isn't playing on that show (which may or may not be San Bernadino).

I don't feel that the various books and other written sources on this period are reliable. Things were written so long after the events in question that memories may not be accurate. Also, some of the people who wrote these things may have had their own agendas to push. I'm not sure I believe Peter was willing to join the band for that tour only if they played "Black Magic Woman" plus some jamming, but I wasn't there so I may be completely wrong on that.

I'm basing my belief on what I hear on the show. The most compelling evidence to me is that Christine is singing the part of "Purple Dancer" that Jeremy sings on the studio version. Unless Jeremy had a bad voice that night and couldn't sing, it seems like that would indicate that he had already left the band.

Are there any recordings of shows from late '70 or early '71 before Jeremy left? I don't know of any, but it would be wonderful to hear a show that we know for sure is from that period.

Anyway, it's great to have this discussion going. I doubt that any of us will be able to "prove" who's playing on that show or even the date and location, but it's fun to talk about it.
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  #40  
Old 02-15-2004, 04:19 PM
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From everything I've read, Jeremy left on Feb 9, 1971. IF this was March 24th...it would HAVE to be Peter on second guitar. Case solved.
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  #41  
Old 02-15-2004, 04:29 PM
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Chili,

but if Jeremy left on February 8th and San Bernardino was really the first gig with Peter, then it wasn't 24 March!

Also very often bootleg tape are mislabelled, so it's difficult to know the truth, but for now we must believe in the sources we have, books, magazine articles , ecc.....

Cheers,

Mario.
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  #42  
Old 02-15-2004, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mario
Hello again from Italy.

Here I am about the vexed question of "San Bernardino".

Firstly, sorry for the big mistake I did last time I posted...of course it was a FIVE piece line-up, but Iwas in hurry and this didn't help.

So, I've looked in the various book, Celmin's, Bob Brunning's,Mick Fleetwood's, also Pete Frame's Rock Family Trees, to try and check dates. Most state a date of mid February for Jeremy leaving the band. Allowing for the few days spent trying to get Jeremy back, plus 2/3/4 days for Peter to fly out, this would mean a first gig date of around say 21-25 February (not 24 March), Brunning's book state that the first gig Peter did was San Bernardino.

Again both Pete Frame and Bob Brunning state that Bob Welsh joined the band in April 1971, after the tour was over, so 24/3/71 date would appear to be late in the Green tour of six weeks. Welsh is certainly playing with the band by June 1971 as that is the start of the recording sessions for "Future Game".

Green stated he would only play if they did the sit list his way "Black Magic Woman" plus 3/4 jam session numbers.

Listening to the tape I have the following observations:

1- Most of the numbers are fairly short and structured (this goes against the Green jam session statement)

2- I'm sure I can detect a second guitar on some of the numbers, (which goes against the teory that Peter was off stage for this segment of the set)

3- Christine seems to do most of the talking/announcing and does mention both Danny and Mick, but not Jeremy.

4- "Get Like You Used To Be" and "I'd Rather Go Blind" come from Christine's Vhickenshack days.

5- My friend R.Jim Greaves saw the band in October/November 1970 (Christine was already playing with them) and at that time Jeremy stayed on stage for the whole set - unlike the Peter Green days.

6- Also at that time they played at least one long jam style number, often it was "Hi Ho Silver", from "Kiln House"

7- Just because there are no Jeremy Spencer songs on the tape does not mean he wasn't there. Most of his material was still Elmore and Elvis style, so They may not have recorded or edited out.

8- I know thre's is a fair amount of wah.wah guitar,but that sounds to be all in Danny's more "jagged" oe "choppy" style, not fluid enough for Peter.

On balance I don't believe this is what it claims to be. I don't think Peter is on the tape, although I find it very difficult to pick out Peter's playing on Grateful Dead, Clapton jams, ecc...

I suspect this is an earlier gig, before Jeremy left, passed off as one of the "Greeny gigs"

My only doubt is about some guitar playing on "Dragonfly" and I love so much Peter's Legacy that I'm more than happy for someone to prove me wrong, but until then I'll stick with Peter not playing.

Stay always Green....

Mario.

Until there's absolute confirmation, Mario, it seems as we'll be on opposite ends of this argument for the duration. As Peter said so eloquently..."Oh Well".

Seems to me, it would be the LAST show of the tour...IF it had been March 24th. Even if it were FEBRUARY 24th, I'd STILL say it's Peter on there...the squwaky out-of-phase tone from his Les Paul pickup is clue enough. Its a one-of-a-kind tone that NOBODY else had...either at the time or NOW.

After listening through headphones, I'd be surprised to find out that it ISN'T Peter.

Again, Mick's book isn't all that reliable about down & dirty facts & figures, so his recollection of the shows with Peter following Jeremy's walk-out could be skewed. Or, just playing Devil's Advocate here, maybe what Mick meant was that the only part of the set that Peter really came ALIVE and showed any interest in were the jam portions. Like on his participation on "Night Watch" & "Brown Eyes", Fleetwood Mac probably played their "structured" set, and Peter could've just been noodling in the background (as it kind of seems to sound on this set of tunes)...some people's "noodles" are other people's "Genius".

Peter probably came out of the shadows and took center-stage when it came to the lengthy jam tunes.
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Last edited by chiliD; 02-16-2004 at 01:12 AM..
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  #43  
Old 02-15-2004, 09:14 PM
wetcamelfood wetcamelfood is offline
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To add to the confusion, I recall someone at this board a while back claming to have been at one of those "after JS, before Welch w/PG" FM shows and they said it was just a "regular show" that did NOT have the "only free form" approach as the legends claim about the show from the "Green fill in era". I don't remember who it was or if they were accurate with their account of the shows they witnessed from that time as being structured, but again, it makes one wonder WHAT CAN/SHOULD we believe? It's so hard to be a Mac fan sometimes I tell ya!

John
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  #44  
Old 02-16-2004, 05:43 AM
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Hehe, great to read this discussion.
Mario, you've made a great list of arguments, I must say!

However, my ears tell me it is Peter.

Maybe the long Black Magic Woman jams was something that Peter decided some time into the tour... ? It had also been written that he held a low profile during the first dates.
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  #45  
Old 02-16-2004, 11:56 AM
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After another listen last night with headphones, I have to agree that it's Peter on second guitar. As chiliD notes, he's just noodling around for much of the time, but as with the guitar fills on "Dragonfly", there's some pretty nice noodling there! To my ears the most structured song, at least in terms of the second guitar part, is "Purple Dancer", but even that part does't seem too complex. All in all, it sounds like what you'd expect to hear from someone joining the band on short notice and with minimal rehearsal time. Plus the guitar playing just doesn't sound like either Jeremy or Bob to me, and parts of it do sound like Peter.

My best guess is that it is Peter, it is San Bernadino, but that the date is incorrect and is actually mid-February. I went back and checked disc trading lists I've gotten from various traders and I see that this show is actually dated February19th on one of the lists. I had it listed as March 24th since that date seems to be more common, but it may well be wrong. It would answer some of our questions if there was a way to check old concert dates. I suppose if there's anyone in the San Bernadino area, they could check old newspapers at the library.
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