Just Skimmed Through STORMS

[Iktomi]

Originally Posted by michelej1

With the incident at Christine's house, Carol does not say that Lindsey dragged her by the hair. She says her hair got caught in the window of his car as he was driving away. Christine told him to stop driving. It's not clear that Lindsey knew that her hair was in the car, she had been chasing him as he was leaving.

I've had that happen to me with the belt from my coat getting trapped in the door as someone was driving off. Neither of us knew that the belt was in the coat until the car started to move and I started to be dragged, but luckily the belt got pulled away from my coat and I wasn't caught behind the moving car.

As for witnesses to her story, generally, when you are writing a book you actually have comments from the witnesses to verify your story -- at least two if preferable. I mean you don't have to do that for an autobiography, but when people write biographies they have two verifying sources to be considered credible. You can say anyone saw things and that doesn't put the onus on them to come forward and say they didn't see it.

If things happened the way Carol said they did, it's criminal behavior which would not only have warranted censure, but jail time. But I find her an unreliable narrator and I think there's some truth to her story, but I don't know how much. To me, you really have to seem believable on the small things to be credible on the big ones. I know the reverse logic goes, she might lie about little things, but she wouldn't lie about something major, but I look at it the other way around. I need to trust the small steps, before I make the big leaps.

Michele

Although true that it isn't on the witnesses to corroborate and discount her account, she puts her account out there to be potentially challenged, which can provide for some readers a certain amount of credibility. Mileage varies and some people need more than that. Although, even if she wanted the band members to provide a comment on the abuse, I don't know if they would or could? On one hand, if her accounts were accurate, they'd be admitting that they saw a woman being abused and they remained silent and looked the other way. I'm not really here to speculate on those aspects, but I think in her situation, even if they wanted to comment on it, it wouldn't have been without political and personal baggage. I mean she was talking about domestic violence, which was punishable by law, had anyone bothered to report him (and of course, it was a slightly different era, and abuse was even more less likely to be reported then than it is today).

Personally, I'm not invested in him enough emotionally to be affected by these allegations (in other words, it's not like when I found out my childhood idol Michael Jordan wasn't a very nice guy). Truthfully, I look at this moreover through the lens of my experiences and career, and approach her story the same way I would with anyone similar to her situation, and accept her experiences as true to her. I've read stories and met people where I've seen obvious lies and exaggerations, but in this instance, I found her greater points on being in an abusive relationship as credible. Unlike many of you, I likely don't know enough about the band to be able to discredit her finer details anyway, so maybe that skews my view? Would non LB/FM fans give her as much credibility as me? Give her more credibility? Less? We could go back and forth on that, but she hasn't really given me any reason to think she's outright lying in her greater narrative. And again, it's not just her book. It's his own words in describing himself back then. It's others' description of him. In cases with abuse, you're never going to see the actual abuse, you're not always going to have witnesses, and you're not always going to see the marks, especially if the abuse isn't physical. So you have to learn to be very intuitive about certain behavior patterns when it comes to all forms of abuse - child abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, etc. (And it goes without saying but nonetheless: intuitions can be wrong, and patterns can be misleading and I'd most wholeheartedly and sincerely welcome being wrong on this issue. Regardless, it seems to me that he's gone through a lot of positive changes, and you can especially see that in his lyrics. I'm still an enthusiastic fan of his music and his history doesn't change that.)

Edit: so I found that passage, and the way I read it is that Lindsey did pull her hair and purposely dragged her, and while you may disagree, I think Carol is indicating that Christine did see this happening.

Pg. 222
"...Before I could say another word, he grabbed a fistful of my hair and floored the gas. Jerked forward, I desperately tried to hold onto the car door as I was dragged by the hair down Christine's driveway. I could hear her screaming, "Lindsey, stop the car! Stop! Stop!" over the sound of Lindsey's voice muttering unintelligible words as I stumbled to my knees still trying to hold on.
"Then as I was falling as Lindsey finally let go...I felt hands helping me to my feet and through blurred eyes I saw Christine's startled face as she asked me over and over if I was ok..."

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Iktomi

Pg. 222
"...Before I could say another word, he grabbed a fistful of my hair and floored the gas. Jerked forward, I desperately tried to hold onto the car door as I was dragged by the hair down Christine's driveway.

Ok. I agree with your description, now that I read that. I had thought that he grabbed her hair (and it came out) in another incident when they were at home, rather than in the car incident.

As far as witness comments, I am aware you don't get them most of the times in these cases. I don't say that that's what makes her less credible to me. These are usually he said/ she said events, because this most often happens in private. My point was that the fact that she says someone saw does not make it sound more valid to me than if she hadn't said anyone saw. After a tell-all is published, I think it's very unlikely that anyone would run forward and say, 'I didn't see that!' Even if they actually didn't.

It would make more sense for Lindsey to deny things he's accused of as perpetrator (and some people assume it's true because he hasn't) than for alleged witnesses to say, "Oh I deny that happened." If asked by a reporter maybe they would see they never saw any such thing, but I don't think anyone is going to be proactive and say, "Oh I never saw that happen," even if they didn't.

My impression of Carol (like her saying that audience members saw through her transparent skirt and started reacting to her when she was standing in the wings of a concert) is that she exaggerates what people see where she was concerned.

Michele

[Iktomi]

Originally Posted by Lindsfan

Good point. For me, I don't think she pulled all of that out of thin air, though I do think she lacks credibility, and so I take it all with a grain of salt.

I also want to add that if he was as abusive as she says, and Mick, John, Ken, et. al., looked the other way, it doesn't say much for them either. Also, I don't think this kind of stuff was unique to LB or FM. My guess is it was not that unusual in the world of R&R, and so looking the other way, was part of the boys club mentality.




And that's kind of the feeling I get with Stevie and Lindsey, that they both pushed each other's buttons and there was a lot of emotional abuse going both ways. Obviously, men will usually be able to do a lot more physical damage, but it doesn't excuse a woman from acting the same way.

I agree here. There is a lot of emotional (and physical) abuse directed at men. Actually, where I'm from, the number of cases of sexual abuse against young men is very close to the number of cases for young women. It's heartbreaking, because most the young men around here will never try talk about it....

In regards to LB/SN, I'm sure their love was genuine, but I've always felt that that relationship was highly toxic (well, that goes for most of the relationships in the band at one point). But in specific regards to SN/LB, the jealousy, possessiveness, and raging anger between them was just so dysfunctional and not really a healthy love. In the "real world," I don't think people would encourage a couple like that to get back together.

[michelej1]

Originally Posted by Iktomi

In regards to LB/SN, I'm sure their love was genuine, but I've always felt that that relationship was highly toxic (well, that goes for most of the relationships in the band at one point). But in specific regards to SN/LB, the jealousy, possessiveness, and raging anger between them was just so dysfunctional and not really a healthy love. In the "real world," I don't think people would encourage a couple like that to get back together.

I don't see them as very compatible people. They excite me together that's for sure, but I don't see them as being capable of being in a stable relationship. I mean, Stevie said in 1982 they could get back together -- but she knew they would only break up all over again. I think that assessment was correct.

Michele

[elle]

Originally Posted by Iktomi

In regards to LB/SN, I'm sure their love was genuine, but I've always felt that that relationship was highly toxic (well, that goes for most of the relationships in the band at one point). But in specific regards to SN/LB, the jealousy, possessiveness, and raging anger between them was just so dysfunctional and not really a healthy love. In the "real world," I don't think people would encourage a couple like that to get back together.

Originally Posted by michelej1

I don't see them as very compatible people. They excite me together that's for sure, but I don't see them as being capable of being in a stable relationship. I mean, Stevie said in 1982 they could get back together -- but she knew they would only break up all over again. I think that assessment was correct.

in that sky arts interview, Lindsey responded to a question asking him to describe their current relationship with "healthy distance".

[Lindsfan]

Originally Posted by Iktomi

In the "real world," I don't think people would encourage a couple like that to get back together.

Agreed. Not if you cared about either one(or both) of them.

Originally Posted by michelej1

I don't see them as very compatible people. They excite me together that's for sure, but I don't see them as being capable of being in a stable relationship.

Michele

Yep. There is without a doubt, something very compelling about them, and their chemistry is off the charts, but they're bad for each other. Period.

Originally Posted by elle

in that sky arts interview, Lindsey responded to a question asking him to describe their current relationship with "healthy distance".

There ya go

[CADreaming]

Originally Posted by Lindsfan

It was a pig/hog bucking like a horse - a Bucking ham...

Thanks! That's awesome. I remember seeing it before.

[CADreaming]

Originally Posted by brickney723

I think he probably loved Carol (as in, he cared about Carol). I don't think he was ever in love with her. Many people are in years long relationships exactly like that- I actually think it's very common. If you are a person who needs to be with someone, it doesn't matter how many options you have: there may never be a reason to leave unless you can be with someone you are actually in love with. I think true love is a very rare thing, it just doesn't come along all that often.

And, sometimes people are in relationships because they are convenient and remain in them because they are convenient. And, sometimes they get in relationships with people out of spite and remain in them for convenience - and spite.

Sad, but true.

[Lindsfan]

Originally Posted by brickney723

I think he probably loved Carol (as in, he cared about Carol). I don't think he was ever in love with her. Many people are in years long relationships exactly like that- I actually think it's very common. If you are a person who needs to be with someone, it doesn't matter how many options you have: there may never be a reason to leave unless you can be with someone you are actually in love with. I think true love is a very rare thing, it just doesn't come along all that often.

Originally Posted by CADreaming

And, sometimes people are in relationships because they are convenient and remain in them because they are convenient. And, sometimes they get in relationships with people out of spite and remain in them for convenience - and spite.

And sometimes people move on, and find love again.

Sure, it's possible that Lindsey wasn't in love with Carol. But it's just as possible that he was. Love comes in varying degrees, and forms, and for all we know, he's currently married to the love of his life. Or maybe not. How do we know? Personally, I just hope he's happy, and that he's loved. Same as I'd wish for anyone I cared about.

[CADreaming]

Originally Posted by Lindsfan

And sometimes people move on, and find love again.

Sure, it's possible that Lindsey wasn't in love with Carol. But it's just as possible that he was. Love comes in varying degrees, and forms, and for all we know, he's currently married to the love of his life. Or maybe not. How do we know? Personally, I just hope he's happy, and that he's loved. Same as I'd wish for anyone I cared about.

Exactly. Everyone is speculating on the compatibility of people we do not know personally. By all accounts previously, the friends of Stevie and Lindsey felt they were very compatible and very in love. Stevie has contradicted herself many times about that. And, Lindsey could have moved on from Stevie, but there are several accounts of that not totally being true, including Carol herself who said she knew he had always been in love with Stevie even when she was with him.

We can't really say what any of their feelings were then or are now - how compatible or toxic or whether Stevie/Lindsey or Lindsey/Carol would have lasted under different circumstances. Those speculations are truly only accurate if you are able to make your observations in the very inner circle.

[elle]

Originally Posted by brickney723

Though.. it's funny because I just saw a youtube video of Lindsey telling someone in the audience at one of his solo shows how unhappy specifically the years from 1977-1987 were for him.

yup, he usually says that. how hard and unhealthy it was to be around the person you are broken up with and not being able to get a closure because they are always there and you need to work with them (and you gotta compartmentalize ). and how he never found that closure until finally leaving 1987, to restore his own sanity. guess it's been slowly uphill for LB since then.

[brickney723]

Exactly. I don't really care to speculate on his marriage. I hope he's blissfully in love with his wife, personally. I'm talking about a girlfriend from 30 years ago here. But I'm not just making a wild guess on this- there is a lot of information (30 years worth) out there (interviews, written and televised, song lyrics, etc.) that make me come to that conclusion.

[CADreaming]

Originally Posted by elle

yup, he usually says that. how hard and unhealthy it was to be around the person you are broken up with and not being able to get a closure because they are always there and you need to work with them (and you gotta compartmentalize ). and how he never found that closure until finally leaving 1987, to restore his own sanity. guess it's been slowly uphill for LB since then.

Yeah, I bet it totally sucked and he never had any fun at all.

[McTrouble]

SMH

[getTusked]

Ok, while we are on the subject of this book, can I just ask about the content OTHER than the abuse? I have already heard all about that and all the opinions about it...but are there any other interesting tidbits/stories about LB that make the book worth getting? I have literally debated getting it for months now. I know some of the abuse accusations can be pretty tough to read, but are there any other stories she gives that just gives us more insight to LB...for us fans? Him being funny? Romantic? Dramatic? Cute? Funny FM stories?

I did hear the Kenny Rogers story. That's a goodie