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  #31  
Old 06-05-2018, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by dreamsunwind View Post
This post amuses me, you referring to the band members as if you know them.
But anyways, it's not that Christine "doesn't say anything bad about anyone". First of all she actually has-- she can be very blunt and she has openly critiqued both Stevie and Lindsey in the past. Apparently (on a lighter note) she even would tell engineers what "ugly fcking shirts" they're wearing!
Second of all, she actually spoke actively about how much she LOVED making the album. Not like she just "didn't say anything bad", she really praised the experience. In a radio interview she did just around the end of last year she casually referred to Lindsey as her "favorite guy to work with".
But I do agree with you that Lindsey's pace probably makes Stevie impatient because it's no fun to her. She's even said she just thinks Lindsey's process is no fun. However I think it's absolutely ridiculous that people think she can just not do it, just because she doesn't want to. She's a member of a band. It's her obligation as a band member to record with her band when they want to record. It wasn't just Lindsey who was ready to record-- it was all of them. Imagine if someone just walked into work and said they don't want to do whatever project their coworkers are doing, just because they don't want to. That's not how life works. Lindsey himself by all accounts had a miserable, near sanity breaking experience recording Tango-- complete with Mick passing out drunk/high in his home, Stevie flying off to sing with Tom Petty for no reason and more-- but he still did it! It's ridiculous that this band has become the "whatever Stevie wants" show.
I see the situation as much more of a balanced problem than you do. I see it being an equal parts Stevie and Lindsey issue while you see this as primarily a Stevie issue. Stevie is the person who gets impatient and doesn't like to spend many months on a project and Lindsey is a bit of a control guy who seems perfectly happy to spend weeks on a single song or part of a song and doesn't want others taking any control away from him. Just as Stevie doesn't want to record an exhausting Lindsey-led studio album, Lindsey doesn't want to change his working style and record an album in one month rather than many months. Life is a two way street and neither side has been ready to compromise which is one of the reason why things broke down earlier this year.
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  #32  
Old 06-05-2018, 03:21 PM
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I see the situation as much more of a balanced problem than you do. I see it being an equal parts Stevie and Lindsey issue while you see this as primarily a Stevie issue. Stevie is the person who gets impatient and doesn't like to spend many months on a project and Lindsey is a bit of a control guy who seems perfectly happy to spend weeks on a single song or part of a song and doesn't want others taking any control away from him. Just as Stevie doesn't want to record an exhausting Lindsey-led studio album, Lindsey doesn't want to change his working style and record an album in one month rather than many months. Life is a two way street and neither side has been ready to compromise which is one of the reason why things broke down earlier this year.
I'm well aware that both sides have their issues. The reason I'm focusing on Stevie is because Stevie is the one that the band has been catering to for years now. And they've done that even though (in my opinion) she has been treating the band like a side piece ever since her solo career took off. They've not recorded when she was busy with something else or didn't want to, they delayed an entire tour by a full year because she wanted to promote her solo album more, they literally released an album with every single other member of the band on it and called it a duet because she didn't want to record. When they did record for the EP, it was when Lindsey basically had to morph into Dave Stewart 2.0 and welcome her into his home with his family and give her the warm and cuddly environment that she likes. Lindsey probably doesn't think Stevie is a cup of tea to record with either. He probably think she needs to be pampered and she's never satisfied and she's not some skilled musician like Christine. But in the end, he was still willing to do it and yet she's the one who has consistently gotten what she wanted. Lindsey on the other hand, didn't get the final album he wanted and then even got pushed out of the band.

Last edited by dreamsunwind : 06-05-2018 at 03:23 PM.
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  #33  
Old 06-05-2018, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by dreamsunwind View Post
I'm well aware that both sides have their issues. The reason I'm focusing on Stevie is because Stevie is the one that the band has been catering to for years now. And they've done that even though (in my opinion) she has been treating the band like a side piece ever since her solo career took off. They've not recorded when she was busy with something else or didn't want to, they delayed an entire tour by a full year because she wanted to promote her solo album more, they literally released an album with every single other member of the band on it and called it a duet because she didn't want to record. When they did record for the EP, it was when Lindsey basically had to morph into Dave Stewart 2.0 and welcome her into his home with his family and give her the warm and cuddly environment that she likes. Lindsey probably doesn't think Stevie is a cup of tea to record with either. He probably think she needs to be pampered and she's never satisfied and she's not some skilled musician like Christine. But in the end, he was still willing to do it and yet she's the one who has consistently gotten what she wanted. Lindsey on the other hand, didn't get the final album he wanted and then even got pushed out of the band.
You don't think that the band has catered to Lindsey as well? They've allowed him to control nearly every aspect of the music for the better part of 40 years.
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  #34  
Old 06-05-2018, 03:50 PM
dreamsunwind dreamsunwind is offline
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Originally Posted by Sugar Mouse View Post
You don't think that the band has catered to Lindsey as well? They've allowed him to control nearly every aspect of the music for the better part of 40 years.
He's the one that produces lol. Of course he's gonna 'control' a lot having to do with the music. That's usually what producers do. Especially a producer who also writes. But I agree Lindsey has been/probably still can be very pushy about what he wants in the studio. Tusk for example was mostly all his brainchild and his insistence that they do it that way but frankly, thank god for that because I'm absolutely convinced that the legacy of the band would not have been what it was had they made Rumours 2.0 like the rest of them all wanted. But then after Tusk flopped, it's well known he ended up doing what they wanted for Mirage. Even 'recently' (although it's not really that recent) with SYW, he REALLY wanted a double album and was all dramatic and annoying about it. But then, it actually didn't happen! He caved and dropped it. So yes, they've given Lindsey the reins a lot in the studio but it's largely been to their benefit in the grand scheme of things and Lindsey has also given up things that he was doing solo in order to do a band project when they wanted (Tango, SYW, etc).
But anyways that's not what I was talking about when I said catering. I meant very literally that, probably ever since after The Dance, they've recorded only when Stevie was willing to record, they've toured only when Stevie wants to tour, when Stevie wanted a delay she got it, when Stevie didn't want to make an album they had to put it out as a duet, etc. They would give Lindsey the reins when they're actually in the studio, but they're basically letting Stevie control IF they even get into a studio and when they go on tour. That's what I think isn't right. Don't call it 'Fleetwood Mac' if ONE member can determine when they go on tour and whether or not they record an album.
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  #35  
Old 06-05-2018, 04:21 PM
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He's the one that produces lol. Of course he's gonna 'control' a lot having to do with the music. That's usually what producers do. Especially a producer who also writes. But I agree Lindsey has been/probably still can be very pushy about what he wants in the studio. Tusk for example was mostly all his brainchild and his insistence that they do it that way but frankly, thank god for that because I'm absolutely convinced that the legacy of the band would not have been what it was had they made Rumours 2.0 like the rest of them all wanted. But then after Tusk flopped, it's well known he ended up doing what they wanted for Mirage. Even 'recently' (although it's not really that recent) with SYW, he REALLY wanted a double album and was all dramatic and annoying about it. But then, it actually didn't happen! He caved and dropped it. So yes, they've given Lindsey the reins a lot in the studio but it's largely been to their benefit in the grand scheme of things and Lindsey has also given up things that he was doing solo in order to do a band project when they wanted (Tango, SYW, etc).
But anyways that's not what I was talking about when I said catering. I meant very literally that, probably ever since after The Dance, they've recorded only when Stevie was willing to record, they've toured only when Stevie wants to tour, when Stevie wanted a delay she got it, when Stevie didn't want to make an album they had to put it out as a duet, etc. They would give Lindsey the reins when they're actually in the studio, but they're basically letting Stevie control IF they even get into a studio and when they go on tour. That's what I think isn't right. Don't call it 'Fleetwood Mac' if ONE member can determine when they go on tour and whether or not they record an album.
Actually ... no. A good producer doesn't control every single detail. They delegate to engineers and others. They don't kick the other band members into another room for hours at a time. Lindsey, good or bad, has been a control guy who controls every detail far more than most any producer does. I'm not saying that the band hasn't catered, at times, to Stevie but they absolutely have catered to Lindsey's very "unique" and exhausting producing style.
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  #36  
Old 06-05-2018, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Sugar Mouse View Post
Actually ... no. A good producer doesn't control every single detail. They delegate to engineers and others. They don't kick the other band members into another room for hours at a time. Lindsey, good or bad, has been a control guy who controls every detail far more than most any producer does. I'm not saying that the band hasn't catered, at times, to Stevie but they absolutely have catered to Lindsey's very "unique" and exhausting producing style.
Again, only one member of the band views him as "exhausting" and has refused to record with him. This one member of the band has now been given carte blanche because, when push comes to shove, Mick knows which side his bread is buttered on and that's all the money-grubber really gives a sh!t about.
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FYI: The Rumours lineup = Mick Fleetwood, John McVie, Christine McVie, Lindsey Buckingham & Stevie Nicks.

The lineup featuring Mike Campbell & Neil Finn is a Post-Rumours lineup of the band.


After 14 yrs visiting a site I once enjoyed which covered a band I once loved following, I now ‘Say Goodbye’ to both
No thanks to the faction within FM which destroyed its legacy & heavy-handed mod michelej1


This site operates at the whim of the admin&mods–a whim I'll no longer be associated with
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  #37  
Old 06-05-2018, 04:49 PM
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This is the most common sense response I have seen on any section of this board about this issue. Thank you. They all contributed to this...but the fact remains that it is over and we probably will never know all the reasons. Time to move on!!
Agreed John. This site sometimes seems like an alternative reality seen only through the eyes of Lindsey Buckingham. Perhaps the website should change its name to Lindsey's Ledge.
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  #38  
Old 06-05-2018, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Sugar Mouse View Post
Actually ... no. A good producer doesn't control every single detail. They delegate to engineers and others. They don't kick the other band members into another room for hours at a time. Lindsey, good or bad, has been a control guy who controls every detail far more than most any producer does. I'm not saying that the band hasn't catered, at times, to Stevie but they absolutely have catered to Lindsey's very "unique" and exhausting producing style.
So now Lindsey's not a good producer? You know more about his process than Christine McVie does? She has actively praised him, yet you dismiss her opinion. That's rather presumptuous of you.

If you truly knew these people and their professional proclivities as well as you insinuate, you would not act as if her words are worthless and superimpose your own narrative on top of them.
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  #39  
Old 06-05-2018, 05:23 PM
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So now Lindsey's not a good producer? You know more about his process than Christine McVie does? She has actively praised him, yet you dismiss her opinion. That's rather presumptuous of you.

If you truly knew these people and their professional proclivities as well as you insinuate, you would not act as if her words are worthless and superimpose your own narrative on top of them.
Where exactly did I say that Lindsey isn't a good producer? I said that Lindsey is a producer that likes to control every detail and likes to take a long time to produce his records and some people (Stevie) find this exhausting.
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  #40  
Old 06-05-2018, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Sugar Mouse View Post
Actually ... no. A good producer doesn't control every single detail. They delegate to engineers and others. They don't kick the other band members into another room for hours at a time. Lindsey, good or bad, has been a control guy who controls every detail far more than most any producer does. I'm not saying that the band hasn't catered, at times, to Stevie but they absolutely have catered to Lindsey's very "unique" and exhausting producing style.
I’ll (again) state that my point here isn’t to point out who the band has catered to over the years. In the end, Lindsey has recorded a studio album for ‘Fleetwood Mac’ exactly once since 1987. And that album was 15 years ago. And we all know what were the problems with that album. Stevie thought it took too long, she didn’t like how her songs came out (and she’s had that happen in her solo career as well, where she’s admitted to just not liking how some of the songs came out), Lindsey wanted a double album but didn’t get it and was all bitter about it, etc. Everything that actually has happened over the past 15 years and a lot even before that has really all been catering to Stevie. She basically gets to decide what they do. If they even record at all, how it happens when they do (Lindsey bringing her to his home, making a nice and simple EP where she only had to fork over one old song and it got recorded almost exactly like her demo, giving her the nice and fuzzy environment she likes), when they go on tour, if they put out an album or not, etc. THAT is the stuff that really matters now. I don’t deny that the band has let Lindsey have his way a lot in the studio in the past. But considering that the last time that happened was 15 years ago, it’s just not really relevant in this situation. Unless you count the BM album, which by all accounts was a fairly smooth, drama-free recording that Lindsey and Christine both loved. And you know, at least when they've catered to Lindsey, he was actually DOING work for the band. When they cater to Stevie, it's usually letting her get away from doing work for the band.
But also what you said about Lindsey controlling “every single detail” of the recording isn’t true. I don’t know if you were exaggerating to make a point but that’s just not true. He certainly had a very heavy hand, obviously since he’s the band member that produces, but that he controlled everything and others weren't fairly involved isn't true. He probably wanted to at times, but people would reel him in. I don’t know if you’ve read Ken Caillait’s book or his interviews but I have and he talked extensively about what Lindsey was like in the studio-- and he criticizes him plenty-- but the most blunt thing he says is that basically Lindsey could just be really annoying, too serious and was borderline crazy, but he never once said Lindsey controlled everything. He describes the environment very well and others were plenty involved. According to him (and to others who have talked about it) Lindsey’s main ‘thing’ was that he would have some big vision for the sound and he try to convince the rest of the band to go along with it but he was very unsure so he would agonize over the songs for hours until he thought it was right. Here’s an interesting tidbit from his blog https://kencaillat.tumblr.com/post/1...instruments-on, note what he says at the end about Stevie and Chris’s songs. And there’s lots of other stories from Christine, Mick, Richard Dashut that are all very insightful and interesting. You should check them out!
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  #41  
Old 06-05-2018, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by dreamsunwind View Post
I’ll (again) state that my point here isn’t to point out who the band has catered to over the years. In the end, Lindsey has recorded a studio album for ‘Fleetwood Mac’ exactly once since 1987. And that album was 15 years ago. And we all know what were the problems with that album. Stevie thought it took too long, she didn’t like how her songs came out (and she’s had that happen in her solo career as well, where she’s admitted to just not liking how some of the songs came out), Lindsey wanted a double album but didn’t get it and was all bitter about it, etc. Everything that actually has happened over the past 15 years and a lot even before that has really all been catering to Stevie. She basically gets to decide what they do. If they even record at all, how it happens when they do (Lindsey bringing her to his home, making a nice and simple EP where she only had to fork over one old song and it got recorded almost exactly like her demo, giving her the nice and fuzzy environment she likes), when they go on tour, if they put out an album or not, etc. THAT is the stuff that really matters now. I don’t deny that the band has let Lindsey have his way a lot in the studio in the past. But considering that the last time that happened was 15 years ago, it’s just not really relevant in this situation. Unless you count the BM album, which by all accounts was a fairly smooth, drama-free recording that Lindsey and Christine both loved. And you know, at least when they've catered to Lindsey, he was actually DOING work for the band. When they cater to Stevie, it's usually letting her get away from doing work for the band.
But also what you said about Lindsey controlling “every single detail” of the recording isn’t true. I don’t know if you were exaggerating to make a point but that’s just not true. He certainly had a very heavy hand, obviously since he’s the band member that produces, but that he controlled everything and others weren't fairly involved isn't true. He probably wanted to at times, but people would reel him in. I don’t know if you’ve read Ken Caillait’s book or his interviews but I have and he talked extensively about what Lindsey was like in the studio-- and he criticizes him plenty-- but the most blunt thing he says is that basically Lindsey could just be really annoying, too serious and was borderline crazy, but he never once said Lindsey controlled everything. He describes the environment very well and others were plenty involved. According to him (and to others who have talked about it) Lindsey’s main ‘thing’ was that he would have some big vision for the sound and he try to convince the rest of the band to go along with it but he was very unsure so he would agonize over the songs for hours until he thought it was right. Here’s an interesting tidbit from his blog https://kencaillat.tumblr.com/post/1...instruments-on, note what he says at the end about Stevie and Chris’s songs. And there’s lots of other stories from Christine, Mick, Richard Dashut that are all very insightful and interesting. You should check them out!
Stevie herself has said how lucky she is to have someone like Lindsey on her songs. It was during "The Dance" promos---and let's not forget "Soldiers Angel" and "Twisted"
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  #42  
Old 06-05-2018, 06:57 PM
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Stevie herself has said how lucky she is to have someone like Lindsey on her songs. It was during "The Dance" promos---and let's not forget "Soldiers Angel" and "Twisted"
Again, Lindsey is a very talented producer who has created some of the best albums of all-time. I'm sure Stevie would be the first to recognize this and how much Lindsey has helped make her songs all they can be.

That being said, Lindsey is an incredibly focused, driven, detail oriented, perfectionist producer whose projects often take many months and are exhausting.

Stevie recognizes the genius in his work, but simply hasn't wanted to put herself through the exhaustion that such work entails.
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Old 06-05-2018, 07:05 PM
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Stevie herself has said how lucky she is to have someone like Lindsey on her songs. It was during "The Dance" promos---and let's not forget "Soldiers Angel" and "Twisted"
Doesn't she not even like that version of Twisted? She released like 2 other 'solo' versions of it and neither was nearly as good. I have NOOOO idea why she doesn't like it. Everyone I know who's listened to it loves it. It's really one of her best recent-ish things that she's done. The production is so good and her voice sounds amazing.
I so agree that she really was lucky to have him. I was listening to the Tom Petty version of Gypsy recently and the Bella Donna outtake of it and it's so crazy to hear how different the song could have sounded. It was obviously still a nice song and everything but it could've been so forgettable. The production on the final version was just stunning and really made it a classic for her.
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Old 06-05-2018, 08:36 PM
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Again, Lindsey is a very talented producer who has created some of the best albums of all-time. I'm sure Stevie would be the first to recognize this and how much Lindsey has helped make her songs all they can be.

That being said, Lindsey is an incredibly focused, driven, detail oriented, perfectionist producer whose projects often take many months and are exhausting.

Stevie recognizes the genius in his work, but simply hasn't wanted to put herself through the exhaustion that such work entails.
I believe the point people, not that I want to speak for others, but I will speak for myself, The fact 1 person, who is in a band (that alone speaks for the expectation of all parties) possibly couldn't work with one member, and everyone else in said band could...that person should leave. And in the scenarios laid forth by you and others in this thread--that person is Stevie. You've alluded that most of the posters are so focused, myopically almost, on the Lindsey POV, perhaps acknowledge you are myopically focused on the other. And maybe it's because you are just besides yourself with excitement that "your guy" is taking they guy that was booted's place.
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Old 06-05-2018, 08:39 PM
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Doesn't she not even like that version of Twisted? She released like 2 other 'solo' versions of it and neither was nearly as good. I have NOOOO idea why she doesn't like it. Everyone I know who's listened to it loves it. It's really one of her best recent-ish things that she's done. The production is so good and her voice sounds amazing.
I so agree that she really was lucky to have him. I was listening to the Tom Petty version of Gypsy recently and the Bella Donna outtake of it and it's so crazy to hear how different the song could have sounded. It was obviously still a nice song and everything but it could've been so forgettable. The production on the final version was just stunning and really made it a classic for her.
I had not heard she didn't like that version. I think it's beautiful.
Gypsy, under Lindsey's production, really is a masterpiece for FM. I watched the Dance the other night, and the version of Gypsy during that tour is amongst my favorites.
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