so, lindsey or stevie? who owns this album more?

[shackin'up]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

AAaaaargggghhhh... It's a fabulous song. Some of the best drumming Mick's ever done is on that song. And the layered guitar sounds are brilliant, not to mentioned the anguished vocals. This is sheer brilliance.

hahaha, fighting windmills Carne, NTF is percepted as one of the worst macsongs on this board. A contradiction that is quite confusing, since so many people here have Tusk as their fave album. And for me ( us?) NTF is a very defining song on that album.

[4Buck]

Buckingham dominates SAY YOU WILL.

Lindsey’s testosterone-driven, turbo-charged power licks and supreme, male-focused production give this album a “guy” ambience -- with less femaleness.

Stevie Nicks’ songs rank with the best here, but Buckingham’s awesome and finest compositions to-date definitely prove that Lindsey Buckingham was "ba!!s deep" in this masterpiece!

[cliffdweller]

Originally Posted by Mad4stevie

It is Lindsey's album, for sure, but I like Stevie's songs better - just as I did with Tusk.

I agree, except I think Lindsey's songs are better. HOWEVER, just wait until the next Stevie solo album comes out, I expect great things from her.

[strandinthewind]

I think the writing on this record is Stevie at her best. For example, I think the song Say You Will is very well written and it just makes me smile and get happy. I think Goodbye Baby is heart wrenching and is a prime example of Stevie's immense talent at evoking emotion while maintaining mystery (do we really know for sure what it is about? ).

BUT, it took LB's magnificent production to get this record off of the ground and his songs are brilliant too. It is almost as if LB ia 1 1/2 times more present than La Nicks because LB wrote and produced his songs and Stevie wrote and demo'd her songs and gave them to LB to produce. Even Stevie says LB just sort of takes her demos and runs with them. Sometimes the final product is very close to the demo and sometimes not. In the end, the album is great and the credit goes to LB as a producer that make great material even better

[cliffdweller]

Originally Posted by shackin'up

hahaha, fighting windmills Carne, NTF is percepted as one of the worst macsongs on this board. A contradiction that is quite confusing, since so many people here have Tusk as their fave album. And for me ( us?) NTF is a very defining song on that album.

I don't like NTF, but I like what it's trying to do. I like the anguish, I like the chorus, I like that the "working-outside-the-boxness" of it, I just don't like it as a whole. Does this make sense? Actually, I think NTF is an offshoot of "I Know I'm Not Wrong" or IKINW is an offshoot of NTF, either way, they're very similar songs it's just that IKINW succeeds in doing what NTF is trying to do.

[cliffdweller]

Originally Posted by 4Buck

but Buckingham’s awesome and finest compositions to-date definitely prove that Lindsey Buckingham was "ba!!s deep" in this masterpiece!

Thanks for the rather vivd metaphor. It really "drove" your point home.

[cliffdweller]

Originally Posted by WindingRoad

Note to Lindsey: Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD do it. (TUSK)

Blaspheme!!

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by cliffdweller

I don't like NTF, but I like what it's trying to do. I like the anguish, I like the chorus, I like that the "working-outside-the-boxness" of it, I just don't like it as a whole. Does this make sense? Actually, I think NTF is an offshoot of "I Know I'm Not Wrong" or IKINW is an offshoot of NTF, either way, they're very similar songs it's just that IKINW succeeds in doing what NTF is trying to do.

The songs are definitely related. Who knows which came first? But their position in the sequence is telling. Not that Funny says, "don't blame me, please." There's still some emotional turmoil going on there, and the cacophony of guitar sounds at the end plays into that turmoil. In I Know I'm Not Wrong, the protagonist has made some more progress. There is resignation in his attitude: When he says don't blame me here, he's evolved from pleading, "don't blame me," to being certain he's right: "Don't blame me... I know I'm not wrong." Now compare the sing-songy riff in I Know I'm Not Wrong to the Not that Funny guitar work. The IKINW riff is structured and happy, as opposed to the pull-your-hair-out explosion of noise at the end of Not That Funny.

[Pisces Queen]

For me ~ it's Stevie that shines through on the record. I love Lindsey but his songs just don't hit me like Stevie's do. I find myself skipping through some of Lindsey's work but he does have some treats like Miranda and Steel You Heart Away. But to me Stevie's work flows beautifully from Illume to Good Bye Baby. But that's my opinion.

[face of glass]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

The songs are definitely related. Who knows which came first? But their position in the sequence is telling. Not that Funny says, "don't blame me, please." There's still some emotional turmoil going on there, and the cacophony of guitar sounds at the end plays into that turmoil. In I Know I'm Not Wrong, the protagonist has made some more progress.

I agree there. What I find fascinating in the studio version of “Not That Funny” (because the live version is an entirely different thing) is its childish insistency. It’s like he intentionally made this clumsy, lumbering song in which the vocal melody moves obsessively between just a few notes. Not to mention the production, which I think is the closest audio analogy to Jackson Pollock’s methods that anyone making “pop music” has ever created. Those guitars at the end jump all over the place and give me images of Pollock occasionally losing the control he had and just maniacally dripping the paint onto the canvas. It’s like an extremely hurt little child who just needs to get all that frustration out with all that immature ranting. It is less refined than “Silver Springs”, yes, but it’s just as valid form an expression and dare I say it: it acknowledges the darker side of the psyche more unrestrained than Stevie has ever done it. Neither way is better than the other anyway.

In “I Know I’m Not Wrong” the childish has turned into childlike. The anguish has disappeared and has been replaced with naivety. The guitar solo in particular is one of the most beautiful things he’s ever played. There’s very little of his usual obsessive weaving in there, it sounds like a huge load had been lifted off his shoulders. It uplifts me, at least.

So I understand why Gerald and Carne think these two were important for the project; after all “IKINW” was the “Song #1” and eventually was turned into the exploration of the darker side in “NTF”, thus starting the “serious artistic pretentiousness” and the sonic thematic repetition for Lindsey Buckingham.

*out of the show-offy $100 words for a while*

[face of glass]

Originally Posted by chiliD

Other than the four Stevie wrote at the last minute, Lindsey's songs are a helluva lot more contemporary than Stevie's.

I don't think anyone's less contemporary than the other here. Stevie writes songs like she's always written, the only thing that influences them is her getting "older and wiser" and that's not necessarily relative to what's going on right now. But she knows how to appeal to audiences of different ages through the mainstream production, what with all those comments about selling albums to the "10-27 year-olds" (which I do see as hilarious but choose not to make a big fuss about).

Lindsey is the same he's ever been; taking things from the various decades of rock music ('60s-'90s) and utilizing these to follow his diverse pop eccentric schtick.

___________________________________________

On SYW, LB deals with emotions ranging from obsession to lightweight, from uplift to violence, from longing and relieved to everything in between. Whereas Stevie's songs may appear deeper at first, Lindsey tries to communicate to us through putting two or more emotions into the same song so that we have a network which can give us a lot more than what it first seems to be offering.

So therefore I won't buy into the "Stevie is deeper than Lindsey" argument. They're equally complex and deep, just in different ways. Point repeated ad infinitum.

If I take out the production aspect I think this is pretty much 50-50 for the two. LB has the highest points in "Murrow" and "Red Rover" but he also has the lowest in "Peacekeeper" and "Steal Your Heart Away". Stevie is consistent throughout, even "Silver Girl" is fine with me.

The Nicksheads might be willing to think of this album as another mercy offering to Lindsey, in that SN isn't overtly active during this tour and is giving LB more room because of the public neglect. It is a possibility, given that SN's voice didn't change the GOS songs in any significant way. But it is more likely that Lindsey hasn't deemed her necessary for his music since Rumours in that she has very little harmony parts in the material Lindsey has put out since then. Maybe it was because the songs were already considered complete; that's why she was only slapped on in there superficially.

It remains to be seen whether the next possible album is a true group effort in between LB and SN in terms of Lindsey's songs too. Stevie hasn't been given much room on a Lindsey song since "Go Your Own Way". We'll see if he's still willing to work with her to that extent.

[CarneVaca]

Originally Posted by face of glass

On SYW, LB deals with emotions ranging from obsession to lightweight, from uplift to violence, from longing and relieved to everything in between. Whereas Stevie's songs may appear deeper at first, Lindsey tries to communicate to us through putting two or more emotions into the same song

Yes, the emotion on Stevie's songsis worn on the sleeve, so people can connect with it more readily. And even a song like Illume, which I admit has grown on me, had to be subtitled (9/11) just in case people didn't figure out right away what it was about.

So therefore I won't buy into the "Stevie is deeper than Lindsey" argument. They're equally complex and deep, just in different ways. Point repeated ad infinitum.

I agree with this assessement. Lindsey is more sophisticated in how he presents his emotions in songs. His lyrical ideas, though at times so overtly simplistic on the surface, tend to hide a level of complexity that takes some time to get to. And even though he mostly uses fairly traditional chord progressions (excepting some of the Tusk songs) the approach is unconventional.

he Nicksheads might be willing to think of this album as another mercy offering to Lindsey, in that SN isn't overtly active during this tour and is giving LB more room because of the public neglect.

As I've pointed out before, Lindsey has always gotten plenty of kudos for his on-stage presence, more so since the Dance, but I believe the critics really started to pay attention to his stage antics during the Tusk tour. He's a vibrant performer.

Also, let's cut Stevie a break. She had had hip replacement, and from what I understand, though common, it is a serious operation.

[jbrownsjr]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Yes, the emotion on Stevie's songsis worn on the sleeve, so people can connect with it more readily. And even a song like Illume, which I admit has grown on me, had to be subtitled (9/11) just in case people didn't figure out right away what it was about.



I agree with this assessement. Lindsey is more sophisticated in how he presents his emotions in songs. His lyrical ideas, though at times so overtly simplistic on the surface, tend to hide a level of complexity that takes some time to get to. And even though he mostly uses fairly traditional chord progressions (excepting some of the Tusk songs) the approach is unconventional.





As I've pointed out before, Lindsey has always gotten plenty of kudos for his on-stage presence, more so since the Dance, but I believe the critics really started to pay attention to his stage antics during the Tusk tour. He's a vibrant performer.

Also, let's cut Stevie a break. She had had hip replacement, and from what I understand, though common, it is a serious operation.

A hip replacement is very serious. I bow to her for what she's doing!

[strandinthewind]

Originally Posted by face of glass

The Nicksheads might be willing to think of this album as another mercy offering to Lindsey, in that SN isn't overtly active during this tour and is giving LB more room because of the public neglect. It is a possibility, given that SN's voice didn't change the GOS songs in any significant way. But it is more likely that Lindsey hasn't deemed her necessary for his music since Rumours in that she has very little harmony parts in the material Lindsey has put out since then. Maybe it was because the songs were already considered complete; that's why she was only slapped on in there superficially.

It remains to be seen whether the next possible album is a true group effort in between LB and SN in terms of Lindsey's songs too. Stevie hasn't been given much room on a Lindsey song since "Go Your Own Way". We'll see if he's still willing to work with her to that extent.

Come On. Do you think WB would have released this record is Stevie had not come on board? The same WB that poo poo's Lb's GOS material in the first place. Do you think LB could have sold out or come close to it the huge venues on the first leg of this tour. Based on his relative unknown status when compared to the FM name and more importantly Stevie Nicks name, the anser is no - LB could not have been this big time. Do I think Stevie took pity on LB and agreed to do this on that basis? No. I think that may have been part of it, but I think deep down SN and LB like being with each other - end of story for me at least.

Also, I am not saying LB needs to be big time rock and roll, I am just saying he seems to covet it for whatever reason.

Finally, Stevie has always harmonized on almost all of LB's stuff and harmonizes on SYW in many ways. So, I do not get your point.

[face of glass]

Originally Posted by CarneVaca

Also, let's cut Stevie a break. She had had hip replacement, and from what I understand, though common, it is a serious operation.

Oh yes. It's not necessarily all that twisted anyway.

The ultimate female rock survivor marches on.